Skeptics and Santa Claus

Skeptics who celebrate Christmas: Do you teach your kids to believe in Santa Claus?

  • Yes I do (or would if I had children), and I don't think this is inconsistent with skepticism.

    Votes: 40 42.6%

  • Yes I do (or would if I had children), but I do think it's inconsistent with skepticism.

    Votes: 7 7.4%

  • No I don't (or would not if I had children), but I don't think it would be inconsistent with skepti

    Votes: 9 9.6%

  • No I don't (or would not if I had children), and I think it would be inconsistent with skepticism to

    Votes: 30 31.9%

  • On Planet Xmas, we spend the holidays hiding in an armored bunker from Santa-bot.

    Votes: 8 8.5%
  • Total voters
    94
Lukraak_Sisser said:
I've seen this type of critical thinking in action. A mother tearing a crying child away from a sinterklaas entry into my hometown (a big parade thing encouraging the horrible magical fantasy/hoax which is immense fun) telling her 4 year old "No, there is no such thing and unlike everyone you know YOU will not get brought presents, because its not real!"
Click to expand...

I think you're forgetting the third option which is to agree that "Santa Claus" is there in the same way that you would if "Mickey Mouse" were there. I don't see anyone advocating wrenching a child away from "Santa's Grotto" even if you have seen others do it.

Sure, it teaches critical thinking at an early age, and also teaches that critical thinking = sour killjoys who take away the fun things everyone else does get to do.
Click to expand...

Actually, I don't think the situation you described teaches "critical thinking" at all. But no matter, because no one here is advocating that behaviour as far as I can see.
 
lionking said:
I will never forget taking my oldest son to see Humphrey Bear at about two, nearly 30 years ago. His excitement was a delight to see. He believed Hunphry was real - possibly not a real bear, but also not a man in a costume. What should I have said? "Son, you know that Humphrey is not real".

Is that what people really think I should have done? Really?
Click to expand...

Did you also make a big man made out of straw and say, "Son, next time I disagree with you I'll address this big strawman instead of you. Now watch and learn."?
 
angrysoba said:
Did you also make a big man made out of straw and say, "Son, next time I disagree with you I'll address this big strawman instead of you. Now watch and learn."?
Click to expand...

I don't see how this is a strawman. Humphrey is a man in a suit, just as Santa is.
 
lionking said:
Where is the evidence it causes harm? This is simply your belief.

I think it's drawing an incredibly long bow to infer a relationship between a belief in Santa and later woo beliefs. As I mentioned earlier all seven kids believed in Santa (with their parents collusion) and have all grown up as skeptical atheists.
Click to expand...
Could I possibly be more clear than what I have already said? "I don't care about incidental harm." I've never said that belief in Santa is associated with woo beliefs in adulthood. I don't care if it is or not. If my reference to "intrinsic harm" is what's throwing you off, I'll rephrase it: A core component of the definition of skepticism, as I understand it, is that holding and perpetuating false beliefs is a bad thing to do. That's not because false beliefs cause some further bad consequences somewhere down the line; some do, and some don't, but from a skeptical perspective the problem with false beliefs is simply that they are false.
 
lionking said:
I don't see how this is a strawman. Humphrey is a man in a suit, just as Santa is.
Click to expand...

Yes, exactly, and I think that most people here who don't want their children to believe in what you might call an "interventionist Santa" will treat Santa like Humphrey. Just a character that you see on TV or in the shopping mall but not one who watches over you and who literally dispenses presents for good behaviour etc...
 
I always thought the Sacred Cow said "moo." Imagine my surprise to find that it also says "ho, ho, ho." :rolleyes:
 
angrysoba said:
Yes, exactly, and I think that most people here who don't want their children to believe in what you might call an "interventionist Santa" will treat Santa like Humphrey. Just a character that you see on TV or in the shopping mall but not one who watches over you and who literally dispenses presents for good behaviour etc...
Click to expand...

Okay, we are talking about different Santas then, possibly a cultural thing. In my experience, the idea that Santa watches over children and only gives presents to good kids is not at all strong in Australia. Santa is part of the last two weeks before Christmas, and I have never even heard of parents here holding the threat of Santa over kids' heads.

And I have never made reference to an "interventionist" Santa.
 
lionking said:
When it comes to Santa, yes. And if you can find a child who has suffered damage (and I doubt you can) how do you balance that with the countless millions who relish the whole fantastic experience?
Click to expand...

my brother told me it was all a lie the christmas after i turned 4 or 5, not sure which. it was an extraordinarily traumatic experience in my life and it took me years afterwards to forgive any of the people involved in the trauma and i have never really been able to forgive my brother.

so yes, i was damaged by it. it still makes me angry to think about today, and it was thirty some years ago now. i admit (somewhat embarrassingly) that i had a minor temptation to threaten to tell his children when they were the age that i was when he gleefully destroyed my christmas.

since i am not the scrotum that he is, i refrained.
 
Believing that there is wonder and mystery in the world is important for children, however you get there. There is plenty of wonder and mystery in reality, but it is not that accessible to young children the way something like Santa Claus is.
 
Psi Baba said:
Wow, if ever there was a thread were a lot of claims were being made, by skeptics, no less, that were totally devoid of evidence, this is it.

In pre-Victorian times, Christmas was not so much of a children's festival. Father Christmas in Britain was the spirit of revelry and was not seen as a figure for children. The Victorian attitude of focusing on children and the whole Dickensian "traditional family Christmas" resulted in the adoption of the American version of Santa Claus, morphing Father Christmas into a similar gift-giver for children. Santa Claus/Father Christmas was viewed by the Victorians as more of a gift to children, far from being part of some "selfish enjoyment" for adults (maintaining the illusion of Santa Claus requires a great deal of selfless effort and sacrifice for most parents, so doing nothing would be the selfish act by taking the easy way out).

Anyway, until I see some evidence or studies that point to all this horrible "damage" that belief in Santa Claus causes, I'll remain skeptical of that particular claim.

BTW, Happy St Nicholas Day everyone! (I hope no-one here get a visit from Black Pete). :)
Click to expand...
I don't recall anyone saying that it's "horrible damage." Does that mean it must be good? The question of the original post is whether it's a good idea. Various people have opined on why it's not. But that also does not translate into some movement to ban Santa Claus or destroy the culture either. It's a question of what one chooses to teach one's kids.

Note to lionking: the interventionist Santa is at least theoretically quite strong here in the US, and songs like "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" promote the idea of a virtually omniscient supernatural being who will punish you even for crying and pouting (and, we can presume for other nasty things you do in private). And yet, when the time comes, few kids have their presents docked for bad behavior. I'm not sure what that promotes other than anxiety and a realization that threatened consequences don't happen.

Note to Smackety. Indeed the world is full of wonder and mystery. Why do you need a clown in a red suit to embody it?
 
When my six kids and two nephews were very small, they believed in Santa, and I let them. When they got a little older, they started to have doubts and question his existence. Every one of them floated their doubts to my husband and me, to test the response, which was "What do you think?" Gradually, every one of them looked at the logic and realized the truth for themselves.

I'm pretty sure it didn't damage them. At least, they haven't hurled any recriminations about the issue in our direction, so I guess we're good.
 
ZirconBlue said:
A conversation with my 9-year-old daughter the other day (while watching Santa Claus is Coming to Town:

Daughter: "How do people know what Santa looks like, if no one ever sees him?"

Me: ". . . Well, he comes to the mall and stuff."

Her: :rolleyes: "That's not the real Santa, that's just someone dressed up like him."
Click to expand...

Awesome ~ Gotta love those kind of little kid responses :)
 
I'm not sure what I'll do.

I figured it out when dad was telling me about Santa & I could look up the chimney. (Nope! No way a fat guy gets through there.) But after I refused to believe it, he told me santa was more of a symbol of selfless giving. Ok, granted that doesn't truly work either since you have to be "good" & cookies must be left out, but I decided to run with it.

In 1999, due to a series of events, I wound up with $5,000 to buy toys for a DJ who ran a "stuff the bus" (with toys) in conjunction with the USMC Toys for Tots campaign. I had so much fun buying the toys that I started saving for the next year & have been doing it ever since. (At about $2,000 a pop, a thousand for coats depending on what kind of year I had.) Someone at the stores always calls me Santa.... Since I'm getting old & chubby that part isn't as fun anymore... I hope whatever path I take my son will learn that.
 
Last edited:
bruto said:
I don't recall anyone saying that it's "horrible damage." Does that mean it must be good? The question of the original post is whether it's a good idea. Various people have opined on why it's not. But that also does not translate into some movement to ban Santa Claus or destroy the culture either. It's a question of what one chooses to teach one's kids.

Note to lionking: the interventionist Santa is at least theoretically quite strong here in the US, and songs like "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" promote the idea of a virtually omniscient supernatural being who will punish you even for crying and pouting (and, we can presume for other nasty things you do in private). And yet, when the time comes, few kids have their presents docked for bad behavior. I'm not sure what that promotes other than anxiety and a realization that threatened consequences don't happen.

Note to Smackety. Indeed the world is full of wonder and mystery. Why do you need a clown in a red suit to embody it?
Click to expand...

Bruto, this year you're going on Santa's ''naughty girls and boys'' list.
 
desertgal said:
When my six kids and two nephews were very small, they believed in Santa, and I let them. When they got a little older, they started to have doubts and question his existence. Every one of them floated their doubts to my husband and me, to test the response, which was "What do you think?" Gradually, every one of them looked at the logic and realized the truth for themselves.

I'm pretty sure it didn't damage them. At least, they haven't hurled any recriminations about the issue in our direction, so I guess we're good.
Click to expand...

You missed a pretty critical bit of your story out: what did you say when they asked you?

My kids have all believed in Santa, the youngest two still do. However, when they ask me if he's real I tell them the truth. They don't believe me, because so many other people tell them he does exist and 'don't listen to your killjoy father'. When the eldest two realised he didn't exist they thanked me for being the only person who didn't lie to them. Not that they're damaged by it, but they did appreciate that I hadn't lied.

Oh and they love Xmas as much, if not more than they ever did - as my second child said to me when she was about 6 or 7 'It doesn't matter if you don't believe in god, does it? After all, the real magic of Xmas is getting loads of presents'. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom