George Osborne's Plan B

[Darat]

No I think the argument is that if you want great pensions then you should pay for them yourself and if you think you are getting a crappy deal, go find a better one elsewhere.

Nope that doesn't work because pensions are usually considered part of a remuneration package so for the public sector workers they have taken the job on the basis of that package. Their employer is now trying to alter their remuneration package and Giz (and yours?) argument seems to be that because some other employees have been screwed over their pensions it is only right that they also be screwed!

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Nope that doesn't work because pensions are usually considered part of a remuneration package so for the public sector workers they have taken the job on the basis of that package. Their employer is now trying to alter their remuneration package and Giz (and yours?) argument seems to be that because some other employees have been screwed over their pensions it is only right that they also be screwed!

Remuneration packages change all the time though. If you think you can get a better deal elsewhere then you should go for it. I'd say that anything retroactive should be maintained, so for example if you have worked 10 of your 20 years (for example) you should get half your pension under the old rules and half under the new rules.

Is there some reason why these public sector employees deserve pensions/remuneration that is above the market rate? Any reason why I should pay for it?

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

And under no circumstances should you fight to retain your employment rights because it's no the done thing don't cha know.

The right to keep dipping your hands in the public purse paid for by mug punters like me? With the threat of strikes if we don't keep sugar coating the deal for them?

 

[stokes234]

The right to keep dipping your hands in the public purse paid for by mug punters like me? With the threat of strikes if we don't keep sugar coating the deal for them?

Er. "Dipping your hands into the public purse"? That's how public sector workers are paid, and in return, you get public services such as schools, hospitals, GPs, infrastructure etc all for free. If you truly think that a two year pay freeze in a time of 5% inflation is suger-coated deal, you need to take a quick run through basic maths classes again.

 

[stokes234]

Is there some reason why these public sector employees deserve pensions/remuneration that is above the market rate? Any reason why I should pay for it?

Take a quick glance across the atlantic. Does it look like your healthcare is at "market rate"?

 

[richardm]

Giving the public sector workers their pensions requires money from the private sector. This sticks in the craw of private sector workers as money that could go towards their pensions or pay is instead going to be used on public sector pensions (which are way better).

Aye, but the private sector workers are happy enough that they don't have to pay any medical bills; they don't have to take out private subscriptions to firefighting services; they don't have to pay for private police protection, if they end up in court they don't have to pay for a solicitor if they can't afford one; they like their subsidised swimming pools and their free libraries; they like their children to be educated for free too - aye but they do pay don't they; they pay the salaries and pensions of the workers who provide these services and more.

And now those workers are being told that they should lose money from their salaries, pay more money to their pensions, and get less money when they retire, all because the money that's available is being taken away because the private sector workers don't think it's fair?

Well we'll see how *********** fair it is when the services collapse around your ears and you have to start forking out to go private. And we all start forking out even more to rebuild what's been lost.

 

[richardm]

sugar coating

I think you'll find that the approved term when wanting to teach those greedy road-sweepers and midwives a lesson is "gold plated".

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Is there some reason why these public sector employees deserve pensions/remuneration that is above the market rate? Any reason why I should pay for it?

Don't see where "deserves" comes into it at all. I don't see why they should be treated any differently then any other employee when it comes to negotiating their package.

 

[Darat]

Being one of those private sector workers (and have been all my working life) I don't mind paying for their pensions any more than I mind paying the pension of the bloke on the till at my local Tesco.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Er. "Dipping your hands into the public purse"? That's how public sector workers are paid, and in return, you get public services such as schools, hospitals, GPs, infrastructure etc all for free. If you truly think that a two year pay freeze in a time of 5% inflation is suger-coated deal, you need to take a quick run through basic maths classes again.

Most people I know haven't had a pay increase since 2007 unless they moved jobs. Pay increases linked to inflation went out with the Ark in the private sector.

 

[stokes234]

Most people I know haven't had a pay increase since 2007 unless they moved jobs. Pay increases linked to inflation went out with the Ark in the private sector.

Right, so private sector workers sat around and did nothing while their wages stagnated and their pensions were raided and director pay was rocketing, and therefore if the public sector refuse to accept the entirety of the same rubbish deal, then what they're left with even if it is a 10% pay cut and a big slice out of their pensions, is still a "sugar-coating"?

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Aye, but the private sector workers are happy enough that they don't have to pay any medical bills; they don't have to take out private subscriptions to firefighting services; they don't have to pay for private police protection, if they end up in court they don't have to pay for a solicitor if they can't afford one; they like their subsidised swimming pools and their free libraries; they like their children to be educated for free too - aye but they do pay don't they; they pay the salaries and pensions of the workers who provide these services and more.

And now those workers are being told that they should lose money from their salaries, pay more money to their pensions, and get less money when they retire, all because the money that's available is being taken away because the private sector workers don't think it's fair?

Well we'll see how *********** fair it is when the services collapse around your ears and you have to start forking out to go private. And we all start forking out even more to rebuild what's been lost.

I'm not sure how the services are going to collapse because Johnny Council- Paper-Pusher has to put into his pension pot like everyone else. I'd have no problem paying top-dollar for top notch services but we never get them. What we get is in general barely adequate, hugely inefficient and staffed by people with an entitlement complex who are up in arms at the idea of having to fund their own pensions and not get pay increases every year.

Don't see where "deserves" comes into it at all. I don't see why they should be treated any differently then any other employee when it comes to negotiating their package.

And yet they do want to be treated differently when it suits them. And to my mind if you want to take my money from me and give it to someone else then yes, I'd quite like to know why they deserve it.

Being one of those private sector workers (and have been all my working life) I don't mind paying for their pensions any more than I mind paying the pension of the bloke on the till at my local Tesco.

And that's fine. Of course you have a choice whether to shop at Tesco. When I have a choice whether to contribute to public sector pensions I'll find the two situations comparable.

 

[richardm]

Johnny Council- Paper-Pusher

If your understanding of the public sector is really at that level, I'm not surprised you don't object to them having pay cuts.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Right, so private sector workers sat around and did nothing while their wages stagnated and their pensions were raided and director pay was rocketing, and therefore if the public sector refuse to accept the entirety of the same rubbish deal, then what they're left with even if it is a 10% pay cut and a big slice out of their pensions, is still a "sugar-coating"?

If the public sector workers want pay increases then how about earning them? if they want sugar coated pensions then how about justifying them?

Why can't a public sector worker contribute to their own pension pot like everyone else? Seriously, what's so special about them?

I'd be a lot more sympathetic to these claims if we were getting excellent public services and public servants. I don't see much evidence of it.

If being treated like everyone else is too much for some people to handle then I guess we'll just have to get by without a Biodiversity Projects Officer in Cumbernauld, and Dundee City Centre will just have to go without an Ambassador this year. We'll be needing all that money to pay tube drivers £50k a year anyway....it's tough sitting on your bahookie and pressing a button you know!

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

If your understanding of the public sector is really at that level, I'm not surprised you don't object to them having pay cuts.

No objection when people claim the public sector is only street sweepers and put upon nurses and midwives though?

 

[richardm]

If being treated like everyone else is too much for some people to handle then I guess we'll just have to get by without a Biodiversity Projects Officer in Cumbernauld, and Dundee City Centre will just have to go without an Ambassador this year. We'll be needing all that money to pay tube drivers £50k a year anyway....it's tough sitting on your bahookie and pressing a button you know!

Well. I was going to respond to the rest of your post, but then I read this and decided not to bother.

Your characterisations of public sector workers are offensive in the extreme.

You're either trolling or so spectacularly ignorant on the subject that you're not worth arguing with. Either that or you've started channelling Jeremy Clarkson.

 

[The Don]

Most people I know haven't had a pay increase since 2007 unless they moved jobs. Pay increases linked to inflation went out with the Ark in the private sector.

Well someone was getting pay rises because private sector pay has increased every year during the credit crunch. Most of the time around or below inflation. I presume many people won't admit to getting a pay rise because the current fashion is to claim that you don't.

Every single employee of the company I work through (I'm an independent consultant) has had above inflation pay rises this year.

AFAIK pay rises are also the order of the day at the large German software company who are my largest client.

In the current climate everyone likes to exaggerate about how much they work (strange, everyone they talk to on the radio works 70+ hours a week) and how poorly rewarded they are.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Well. I was going to respond to the rest of your post, but then I read this and decided not to bother.

Your characterisations of public sector workers are offensive in the extreme.

You're either trolling or so spectacularly ignorant on the subject that you're not worth arguing with. Either that or you've started channelling Jeremy Clarkson.

Sorry what characterisations were present in the stating of 2 currently open vacancies for Council employees in Scotland?

I find it offensive that public sector workers sit around and think up new useless ways to spend public money such as the above 2 posts. If I was a nurse or a street sweeper I'd find it offensive that I'm being told there is no money for me at the same time as nonsense roles like those are being recruited.

If you want to justify these roles and the money being spent then go ahead.

Or are we not allowed to ask questions?

What exactly is the proper response to public sector demands? Yes, certainly how much more do you want this year? No Problem!

 

[Skepticemea]

Wow. Emotive.

MPs are public sector workers, aren't they? Francis Maude's pension will pay out £44k per year, but that's not being touched. 72% of pensions over 50kpa are paid to doctors. Couldn't they afford to make their own provision?

The cuts are regressive, that's the issue for me.

 

[richardm]

Sorry what characterisations were present in the stating of 2 currently open vacancies for Council employees in Scotland?

What's offensive is that you pick two jobs and use those two in a Daily Mail-style smear which implies that all public service jobs are equally as trivial.

Public services form the backbone of the country; it would be a very different place indeed without them. That's the justification they need when faced with changes to their agreed contracts, resulting in 3 years of heavily capped pay rises, with forced extra contributions of 3% of their wages, and with a lower pension payout when they finally retire years later than their original contract promised.

They're not asking for more. They understand that money is tight. What they're asking for is not to have what they're owed taken from them.

I might add also that these extra contributions they're making are intended to go in the pension pot, but one of the other sticking points is that no guarantees have been made in that direction.

For all the good a guarantee is with any government - they had an increase in contributions a couple of years ago which was pushed through on a promise that it would put things on a steady footing for the next 20 years. Which is another reason why they're striking now.

Edit: Here's the list of the unions taking part in Wednesday's strike:
The Association of Educational Psychologists
The Association of Professionals in Education and Children's Trusts
Association of Teachers and Lecturers
the Chartered Society of Physiotherapy
the Educational Institute of Scotland
the First Division Association
GMB
National Association of Head Teachers
Napo (family court and probation staff)
the teachers' union NASUWT
Northern Ireland Public Service Association
National Union of Teachers
Public and Commercial Services Union
Prospect (Represents Engineers, Scientists and other specialists)
the Society of Chiropodists and Podiatrists
the Scottish Secondary Teachers' Association
the Society of Radiographers
UCAC (one of the Welsh teachers' unions)
Union of Construction
Allied Trades and Technicians
University and College Union
Unison (all sorts but mostly women in lower paid jobs)
Unite (all sorts)

But yeah them city ambassadors and biodiversity officers sure know how to whine.