George Osborne's Plan B

[Darat]

I don't think that they are getting demonized for wanting that (everybody wants that).

The problem is simply a lack of money. Giving the public sector workers their pensions requires money from the private sector. This sticks in the craw of private sector workers as money that could go towards their pensions or pay is instead going to be used on public sector pensions (which are way better).

It's a question of robbing the worse off to fund the better off. Absolutely appalling (and I would hope all progressives would agree).

Mustn't be a progressive. I have never been a public sector worker, only ever either been self-employed or working for a private company and I think (apart from the age thing and perhaps a cap) public sector pensions have been and should remain roughly as they are. As for them taking "private money" it's a two way street as the private sector can be said to be "taking" public money in the same way, for example the private sector don't have to provide health coverage to make them an attractive employer as that is paid for by public money.

 

[Skepticemea]

I don't think that they are getting demonized for wanting that (everybody wants that).

The problem is simply a lack of money. Giving the public sector workers their pensions requires money from the private sector. This sticks in the craw of private sector workers as money that could go towards their pensions or pay is instead going to be used on public sector pensions (which are way better).

It's a question of robbing the worse off to fund the better off. Absolutely appalling (and I would hope all progressives would agree).

The majority of public sector pensions are currently fully funded. The problem is the govt want to use that money elsewhere and will tear up contracts unilaterally to do so. If your employer cut your pay and pension without your agreement, what would you do? Seek another job or fight for the one you have?

 

[Giz]

The problem is the govt want to use that money elsewhere and will tear up contracts unilaterally to do so.

Big deficit, big debt, bad economy. Government borrowing having to rise. Where is the money for continued accrual of pensions that are so much better than those 'enjoyed' by the majority of the population?

Reality calling - the public sector is going to have to suffer a bit of the pain that the private sector has. Because there is no money!

 

[The Don]

Reality calling - the public sector is going to have to suffer a bit of the pain that the private sector has. Because there is no money!

The public sector has been suffering for years, possibly since always. Certainly my parents (both teachers) worked hard (60-70 hours a week) and were comparatively poorly paid their entire careers and were rewarded with pensions which have allowed them to just about keep body and soul together. Teaching for them was a vocation so they didn't mind the meagre pay.

Not all the private sector is doing so badly, companies are sitting on huge piles of money and some individuals - particularly the better off - are doing remarkably well financially.

Many/most/all ? public sector pensions are fully funded but of course instead of having a fund of money (like the Ontario Teachers' Pension Fund) successive governments have viewed superannuation as a source of immediate funds.

 

[Keeper]

Why do we bother listening to forecasts and so on? They are never right.

All except the next one!

Love this graph...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/8922416/Autumn-Statement-2011-latest-OBR-forecasts.html

 

[funk de fino]

Big deficit, big debt, bad economy. Government borrowing having to rise. Where is the money for continued accrual of pensions that are so much better than those 'enjoyed' by the majority of the population?

Reality calling - the public sector is going to have to suffer a bit of the pain that the private sector has. Because there is no money!

I notice you missed a part of the ppost out you replied to? I wonder why.

Whats the value of the average public sector pension?

 

[Giz]

Whats the value of the average public sector pension?

Meaningless without considering the average time worked (i.e. if the average pension is 4,000 per annum then that sucks if they spent their entire 40 year working life accuring such a low benefit... but if it is based on, say, only 8 years service then they have another 80% of their working life from which to get alternative pension provision.)

 

[Debaser]

Paul Johnson, director of the IFS, told FactCheck: “The key point is that public sector workers have vastly better pensions than the private sector, and this is a remarkably generous offer.”
Indeed, figures from the Hutton Report show the average public sector pension payout is around £7,800, and the median is £5,800.
Most public sector workers are on defined benefits pensions, where the level of final pension is fixed. This is virtually extinct in the private sector, which is more likely to offer defined contributions (DC) – where the pension payment depends on the pot accumulated by the person when workers retire.
The National Association of Pension Funds (NAPF) says the average lump sum a newcomer to the private sector will accrue in a DC pension is around £20,000, paying out around £1,400 per annum.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-the-truth-about-the-public-sector-pensions-row/8608

 

[stokes234]

Big deficit, big debt, bad economy. Government borrowing having to rise. Where is the money for continued accrual of pensions that are so much better than those 'enjoyed' by the majority of the population?

Reality calling - the public sector is going to have to suffer a bit of the pain that the private sector has. Because there is no money!

The public sector is already suffering pain in the form of pay freezes while inflation runs rampant. The private sector is suffering even more pain because it neglected to form unions and instead bent over and dropped trou while director pay went through the roof. The public sector workers shouldn't have to suffer just because the private sector is so disorganised when it comes to demanding decent renumeration for their work.

If there really was no money, director pay wouldn't have gone up 43% over the last year.

 

[andyandy]

Either you live in a blighted area, or have horrible personal habits or that is off.

Well I'm a long way from retiring so it's not going to be massively off. Data taken from a US actuarial table - so obviously just a rough guide, but I'd be very surprised if it was up to 80. So maybe 10 years of pension - in return for 40+ years of investment. At some point people are going to decide its not worth it.....

 

[Rolfe]

I should just stop reading this thread. My mother lived to 94.

She lived here in this house, till she was 94. Now I wonder, with annuity returns going down and down, and fuel prices going up and up, if I'll be able to stay here myself after I retire. And that's with a pension fund well into six figures.

It's depressing.

Rolfe.

 

[Darat]

Big deficit, big debt, bad economy. Government borrowing having to rise. Where is the money for continued accrual of pensions that are so much better than those 'enjoyed' by the majority of the population?

Reality calling - the public sector is going to have to suffer a bit of the pain that the private sector has. Because there is no money!

That pain that the "private sector" must refer to how many private sector companies have managed to screw their workforce in regards to pensions. It would seem you are arguing that because one group of people have been screwed by their employers so should everyone!

 

[The Don]

The public sector is already suffering pain in the form of pay freezes while inflation runs rampant. The private sector is suffering even more pain because it neglected to form unions and instead bent over and dropped trou while director pay went through the roof. The public sector workers shouldn't have to suffer just because the private sector is so disorganised when it comes to demanding decent renumeration for their work.

If there really was no money, director pay wouldn't have gone up 43% over the last year.

I agree with your points.

For far too long private sector employees focused solely on the salary they received. As a consequence, employers sought to maximise this while minimising other benefits which were less highly regarded (i.e. pensions). Friends and colleagues have often not even considered the pension scheme when applying for a post.

Suddenly pensions are in the news and everyone wants a good one - too late !

 

[andyandy]

This is pretty abject from Labour's perspective:

People think George Osborne is doing a bad job as Chancellor by 49% to 24% ‒ a sharp decline from when YouGov asked the same question after this year's budget when 34% thought he was doing a good job.

• Despite this, Osborne's lead over Ed Balls on who would make the better Chancellor has grown. 30% would now pick Osborne, with Balls on 24%, compared to a lead of 25% to 23% in July.

• 56% of people think the Government is handling the economy badly, with 34% thinking it is doing well.

• However, 37% of people think the economy would be even worse were Labour in power, with only 25% thinking that Labour would be doing a better job.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2011/dec/01/davidcameron-edmiliband#block-8

Milliband and Balls are looking pretty toxic on the head-to-heads.

 

[Darat]

Labour needs to grow some other balls and take a distinct stance on matters of policy rather than following behind the Tories and LibDems bleating "We'd be a bit better than they are, honest."

 

[andyandy]

Labour needs to grow some other balls and take a distinct stance on matters of policy rather than following behind the Tories and LibDems bleating "We'd be a bit better than they are, honest."

True - i think possibly the most depressing political moment of the past few years for me (and there's stiff competition...) was labour's response to the utter betrayal of all future generations in raising the university fees to over £8000 p/a on average, which was to meekly say that under labour it would only be £6000 - and trumpet that as though this was marking clear ground between them and the pro-market small-state right.

Abject.

 

[JihadJane]

Labour needs to grow some other balls and take a distinct stance on matters of policy rather than following behind the Tories and LibDems bleating "We'd be a bit better than they are, honest."

Why? Balls are pathetically vulnerable things. Labour would be better off growing vaginas, a much tougher organ.

 

[Darat]

Why? Balls are pathetically vulnerable things. Labour would be better off growing vaginas, a much tougher organ.

I'd certainly rather have Mrs Balls than Mr.

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

That pain that the "private sector" must refer to how many private sector companies have managed to screw their workforce in regards to pensions. It would seem you are arguing that because one group of people have been screwed by their employers so should everyone!

No I think the argument is that if you want great pensions then you should pay for them yourself and if you think you are getting a crappy deal, go find a better one elsewhere.

 

[The Don]

No I think the argument is that if you want great pensions then you should pay for them yourself and if you think you are getting a crappy deal, go find a better one elsewhere.

And under no circumstances should you fight to retain your employment rights because it's no the done thing don't cha know.

There was a period in the '70s '80s and '90s where IMHO the values of unions and collective bargaining in the UK were questionable. Certainly in the '70s it appeared that an enormous amount of time and effort was being spent featherbedding and working to retain Spanish practices. I suppose that through a combination of legislation, union militancy and a shortage of skilled workers that the employees and in particular the unions held the whip hand.

Several changes in legislation, an upheaval in the employment market and a change in society away from "us" and more towards "me" and employers have gained the whip hand to the extent that the single junior employee is fighting an unequal battle to retain their employment rights (it's different for senior people like me, we can look after ourselves more or less). Maybe the time has come once again for reasonable* unions to help to protect workers' rights in the public and private sector.



* - and here's the rub. Eventually the unions simply focus on continuing to exist and to exert influence. They forget about their members.