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Has there ever been a Conspiracy Theory that was in fact true?

Robrob said:
To define terms maybe we need to look at what the CT consider conspiracies?

Perhaps we could take the Maine as an example - just to avoid getting too wrapped up in more modern political issues?

AFAICT, the historical debate about the Maine was it sank because of:

1) The Spanish in an act of aggression.

2) An accidental boiler explosion.

3) The US in a conspiracy to implicate the Spanish.

If we look at the results:

1) Foolish because Spanish cover up or not, it got them into war. This fails the CT test.

2) Branding an accident as someone else's act of war? This fits the CT model somewhat but not very well. No "false flag" or ninjas required, just simple yellow journalism.

3) This fits the classic CT model. Ninjas sneak into the boat, thermite "explodes," war is declared, etc... The "true villains go unpunished, etc...

In history, has there been an actual verifiable case of a successful #3?
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Actually, I thought that the most likely explanation was that it was caused by a fire in a coal bunker.
 
Robrob said:
Even accepting it as true, there seems to be no real allegations of anything other than GM trying to corner the market. No government cover-up. No ninjas. No elimination of witnesses or witness intimidation. All the hallmarks of a good CT.
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As far as government goes, there was high level involvement between GM and the government in order to ensure investment in the development o the interstate highway system, especially during the Eisenhower administration. There is also a high level of involvement with local government transit agencies. In any case, I believe that you are correct in that there doesn't appear to be any government cover-up. The only ninjas were in Roger Rabbit.
 
Alferd_Packer said:
Actually, I thought that the most likely explanation was that it was caused by a fire in a coal bunker.
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Stipulated. Coal fire in place of boiler explosion.

BTW, would the Tea Pot Dome scandal count as a conspiracy? No ninjas though, I think ninjas are a requirement....
 
Robrob said:
3) This fits the classic CT model. Ninjas sneak into the boat, thermite "explodes," war is declared, etc... The "true villains go unpunished, etc...

In history, has there been an actual verifiable case of a successful #3?
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If it was successful then we wouldn't know about it.

What'shisname (the Third Reich guy) staged an attack on a German radio station to justify invading Poland.

Gleiwitz incident

How convincing it was to the international community is debatable.
 
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matt.tansy said:
If it was successful then we wouldn't know about it.

What'shisname (the Third Reich guy) staged an attack on a German radio station to justify invading Poland.

Gleiwitz incident

How convincing it was to the international community is debatable.
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Given the enormous number of supposed CT out there, if they were real, given the complexity of the plots wouldn't it be likely that at some time - perhaps after all the conspirators were dead - that the truth would come out?

Staged attack on Germany might have been a good one, except as you said it wasn't very successful and it didn't require ninjas. Also, once the Germans occupied France there was little need to keep it secret anymore. It's purpose was served.

Another example would have been the invasion of Iraq - if the administration had bothered to plant some WMD.
 
Robrob said:
Given the enormous number of supposed CT out there, if they were real, given the complexity of the plots wouldn't it be likely that at some time - perhaps after all the conspirators were dead - that the truth would come out?

Staged attack on Germany might have been a good one, except as you said it wasn't very successful and it didn't require ninjas.
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True. But they did dress one of their own citizens as a saboteur, killed him with a lethal injection, then shot his corpse full of bullets. I think the ninja requirement should be waived on account of all that.
 
matt.tansy said:
True. But they did dress one of their own citizens as a saboteur, killed him with a lethal injection, then shot his corpse full of bullets. I think the ninja requirement should be waived on account of all that.
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Ooooh, like Operation Mincemeat but they didn't have to wait for someone to die naturally?
 
LSSBB said:
Did anyone suspect Iran-Contra before it got exposed? There were plenty of ninja-like components, a government cover-up, etc.
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Certainly a contender. Probably the closest one yet. The only thing lacking would be the inevitable CT scapegoat (e.g. 9/11 blamed on al Qaeda, JFK blamed on LHO, OJ blamed on - OJ).
 
Robrob said:
Certainly a contender. Probably the closest one yet. The only thing lacking would be the inevitable CT scapegoat (e.g. 9/11 blamed on al Qaeda, JFK blamed on LHO, OJ blamed on - OJ).
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Israel supplied the weapons to Iran. There you have it.

You just need some tireless CT investigator, who's spot-on instincts led to the uncovering of the vast government plot. I haven't come across one yet, and my memory of all the events has gone dim. I just remember how people fawned all over Ollie North, and I just thought he was basically another criminal albeit a telegenic one.
 
bynmdsue said:
According to my definition of "Conspiracy Theory", no. My definition being an alternative history which has a secret cabal pulling the strings behind the scenes. YMMV.
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Sounds about right. For a recent example read 'The Israel Lobby' by Walt and Mearsheimer. Watch a vid of C. Powell's UN presentation to see the hoax in action. Watch a vid of Bush's 'Where's the WMD comedy sketch on YouTube for acknowledgment. Etc., etc.

Watch Brother Nathaniel on YouTube for current updates.
 
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Gazpacho said:
COINTELPRO. Here's how the news was broken in '74:

and CIA Operation CHAOS, involved in the same activities.

The Reagan administration's facilitation of cocaine traffic:
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Facilitation the importation of cocaine by ignoring the activites of transportation assets, yes.

Facilitating the importation of cocaine as a matter of policy to sell in the black community, as alledged by Webb? no.
 
LSSBB said:
You just need some tireless CT investigator, who's spot-on instincts led to the uncovering of the vast government plot. I haven't come across one yet, and my memory of all the events has gone dim. I just remember how people fawned all over Ollie North, and I just thought he was basically another criminal albeit a telegenic one.
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I saw what you did there.
:)
 
LSSBB said:
Did anyone suspect Iran-Contra before it got exposed? There were plenty of ninja-like components, a government cover-up, etc.
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The "Contra" end was one of the worst kept secrets in history - just about everybody in the old boy SF community knew about it in passing, was involved either through volunteer work or contract employment, and much of it was even reported on in Soldier of Fortune magazine even before the general public or the media caught on.

It wasn't until 1984, when Jim Powell and Dana Parker were killed by the Sandinistas when their helicoptor was shot down that the MSM finally caught on that there were big doings going on south of the border.
 
Every time it's pointed out that Abdelbaset al-Megrahi is no more the "Lockerbie bomber" than I am, and that he was framed for the crime by the CIA and the DoJ, someone shouts "take it to conspiracy theories!"

It's still true though.

Rolfe.
 
But I think that, if true, it was an attempt to frame him after the fact, rather than have him be a patsy all along. Then again, I am not intimately familiar with the details of the case.
 
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