Nuclear (i.e. fission and fusion) mythologies and politics

Ahh, the bathtub if full, now, and my tea is ready. I'll be back in half an hour ... or so.

Till then :D

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
Can you show any calculations for your claim?

- You know, it was your claim, so the burden of proof is yours.

Hans
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I have no clue how to do that calculation. I can show how what seems to be a Wilson cloud suddenly starts expanding outwards about 11 seconds into this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l6Q8Q1smwg

The start of the Wilson cloud is pretty close to the center of the explosion, so the radiation even for high frequencies would have been strong there and the air superheated.
 
Garrison said:
And yet you carry on cheerily making claims as if such knowledge were some sort of optional extra.
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It's a hypothesis. The next step is to check if the hypothesis is true, and if so then the step after that is to contact Barack Obama and tell him that his nukes are vapourware.
 
Anders Lindman said:
It's a hypothesis. The next step is to check if the hypothesis is true, and if so then the step after that is to contact Barack Obama and tell him that his nukes are vapourware.
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No the first step is too actually learn enough about the existing mainstream science that you can construct a credible alternative, should you still feel one is required, that will be persuasive to others and not make you look foolish. As it is you make arguments from ignorance that only impress those who share your ignorance. Simply put you cannot hope to overturn the mainstream without fully understanding it first.
 
Anders Lindman said:
I have no clue how to do that calculation. I can show how what seems to be a Wilson cloud suddenly starts expanding outwards about 11 seconds into this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l6Q8Q1smwg
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So you have no basis for your hypothesis, except "I guess".

The start of the Wilson cloud is pretty close to the center of the explosion, so the radiation even for high frequencies would have been strong there and the air superheated.
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Even being charitable, it starts at least one mile out. Do you realize the scale of that scenery? The small specks surrounding GZ are decommissioned warships, anchored a miles or two out from GZ.

Hans
 
Anders Lindman said:
A photo of a real atom bomb explosion should lack a Wilson cloud since the heat radiation from such alleged explosion would prevent such condensation cloud from forming.
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Wilson clouds were first observed in nuclear explosions. We wouldn't know they existed unless there were a such thing as nuclear weapons.

Your claim is self-contradictory.
 
Anders Lindman said:
It's a hypothesis. The next step is to check if the hypothesis is true,
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We just did. It failed.

and if so then the step after that is to contact Barack Obama and tell him that his nukes are vapourware.
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Seriously, (for certain definitions of 'serious') don't you reckon he'd already know? :nope:

Hans
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
Wilson clouds were first observed in nuclear explosions. We wouldn't know they existed unless there were a such thing as nuclear weapons.

Your claim is self-contradictory.
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Partly correct. The name 'Wilson Cloud" was coined after observing the massive phenomenon around Nuclear bomb tests. Howevert plenty of ww2 bomb footage show the same phenomenon around conventional HE blasts, but because of the much smaller scale, and the speed of sound being the same, such clouds only exist for a fraction of a second.

Hans
 
Garrison said:
No the first step is too actually learn enough about the existing mainstream science that you can construct a credible alternative, should you still feel one is required, that will be persuasive to others and not make you look foolish. As it is you make arguments from ignorance that only impress those who share your ignorance. Simply put you cannot hope to overturn the mainstream without fully understanding it first.
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But it's quite simple. A Wilson cloud is simply condensation that forms in the air by a temporary cooling caused by air density differences:

"A transient condensation cloud, also called Wilson cloud, is observable at large explosions in humid air. When a nuclear weapon or a large amount of a conventional explosive is detonated in sufficiently humid air, the "negative phase" of the shock wave causes a rarefaction (reduction in density) of the air surrounding the explosion, but not contained within it. This rarefaction results in a temporary cooling of that air, which causes a condensation of some of the water vapor contained in it. When the pressure and the temperature return to normal, the Wilson cloud dissipates. ... In humid air, the drop in temperature in the most rarefied portion of the shock wave can bring the air temperature below its dew point, at which moisture condenses to form a visible cloud of microscopic water droplets." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensation_cloud

The dew point for humid air is around 24 °C (75 °F). -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point

The Wilson cloud in this video clip starts from around 11 seconds, close to the center of the explosion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l6Q8Q1smwg The air at that point would surely have been superheated, hundreds if not thousands degrees above the dew point if it was a real nuclear explosion.
 
MRC_Hans said:
Partly correct. The name 'Wilson Cloud" was coined after observing the massive phenomenon around Nuclear bomb tests. Howevert plenty of ww2 bomb footage show the same phenomenon around conventional HE blasts, but because of the much smaller scale, and the speed of sound being the same, such clouds only exist for a fraction of a second.

Hans
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Here is what looks like a brief Wilson cloud in a relatively small explosion compared to what would be needed to simulate an atom bomb explosion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPcQ_nhCi2w

Notice how fast the Wilson cloud moves. That makes me suspect that the atoll atom bomb explosion is not only a model explosion such as for example 1:10 scale but also maybe filmed in slow motion.
 
Anders Lindman said:
But it's quite simple. A Wilson cloud is simply condensation that forms in the air by a temporary cooling caused by air density differences:
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Yes, we know. It forms in any shock-wave, regardless of its origin, if the right conditions are present. Even at helicopter rotor tips.

The dew point for humid air is around 24 °C (75 °F). -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point
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No, you did not read correctly. The dew point depends on the relative humidity. It can be any temperature.

The air at that point would surely have been superheated, hundreds if not thousands degrees above the dew point if it was a real nuclear explosion.
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If it was heated to even hundreds of degrees, it would have been glowing. You are simply speculating, you have no facts.

Also, if you listen to the narrative (or know your history), you would realize that this bomb was set off at sea level. It immediately threw up huge plumes of water and water vapour.

Hans
 
Not that any of this makes a lick of sense but how does the CT explain all the cases of radiation poisoning and resulting deaths following Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
 
Anders Lindman said:
Here is what looks like a brief Wilson cloud in a relatively small explosion compared to what would be needed to simulate an atom bomb explosion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPcQ_nhCi2w
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As I told you, any explosion capable of creating a supersonic shock wave can create a Wilson Cloud, under the proper conditions.

Notice how fast the Wilson cloud moves. That makes me suspect that the atoll atom bomb explosion is not only a model explosion such as for example 1:10 scale but also maybe filmed in slow motion.
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It moves a speed somewhat faster than the speed of sound. They always do. The moment the speed falls below the speed of sound, the shock wave disperses and becomes a pressure wave.

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
No, you did not read correctly. The dew point depends on the relative humidity. It can be any temperature.


If it was heated to even hundreds of degrees, it would have been glowing. You are simply speculating, you have no facts.

Also, if you listen to the narrative (or know your history), you would realize that this bomb was set off at sea level. It immediately threw up huge plumes of water and water vapour.

Hans
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I chose the temperature for 60% humidity, and that's a high humidity which the Wikipedia article mention was needed for a Wilson cloud to form. At lower humidity the dew point is even lower than that.

"Q: What's the highest dew point ever recorded?

A: The dew point temperature, which is based on how much water vapor is in the air, is a good measure of how humid it feels. A dew point above 70°F is quite humid. Very high dew points are often found near shallow, subtropical seas. Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, on the Persian Gulf, recorded a dew point of 95°F on July 8, 2003. In the USA, the highest dew points (above 80°F) occur near the Gulf of Mexico and in parts of the upper Mississippi Valley." -- http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/archives-weather-extremes.htm

So the dew point at the time of the explosion could hardly have been over 95°F.

And surely more than a few hundred degrees Celsius would be needed to make the air glow?

The cloud that suddenly starts at around 11 seconds into the video clip is a Wilson cloud and not water vapor from sea water since the water from the sea would have been superheated steam and not been able to form such condensation cloud so suddenly and so near to the center of the explosion.
 
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Maybe the strongest evidence that this clip shows an explosion with conventional explosives instead of a nuclear explosion is that the flash when the bomb goes off is puny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l6Q8Q1smwg

Such small flash is consistent with conventional explosives and too small to be a nuclear explosion. The deepest atoll bomb was detonated 27 meters below the sea level if I remember correctly, and with fairly clear/transparent sea water the flash should have been huge even from below the surface.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Such small flash is consistent with conventional explosives and too small to be a nuclear explosion. The deepest atoll bomb was detonated 27 meters below the sea level if I remember correctly, and with fairly clear/transparent sea water the flash should have been huge even from below the surface.
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that's just simple incredulity. You actually have no idea how "huge" the flash should have been, do you?
 
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