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UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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Here's one more. I don't think it's been linked to, but then again, I may not be remembering correctly.

I'll even save you the bother of clicking on the link:

Elizabeth Loftus, "Our changeable memories: legal and practical implications," in Nature Reviews: Neuroscience (2003).




Here are a couple sites that talk about memory that will go along with the Loftus one that Adman put up


http://www.salon.com/2011/11/20/why_we_forget/

The first one talks about bookshelf and computer metaphors, various experiments, and "something called episodic future thinking, which means that we simulate the future by using elements from the past".


http://thatsbasicscience.blogspot.com/2011/11/your-legal-brain.html

The second is a talk given by a guy named Craig Stark who appears to be one of the leading researchers in the field. Open the video and go to the eight minute mark. It takes about 28 minutes. One of the things he goes into is how memories erode over time (using the OJ Simpson trial verdict). The rest of the video is not relevant to the present discussion

quote
"First, we were presented with the idea that our memories are terrible. Craig Stark discussed how our inability to accurately recall memories makes it extremely difficult to give unbiased eyewitness accounts. My favorite moment of his talk came when he asked his audience of well-educated neuroscientists to memorize a list of 20 simple words (like "door" or "glass"). About 5 minutes later, he presented a second list with 8 words, some of which were not in the original list. About 80% of the audience was either swayed by the "planted" words or did not recognize a few of the original words. He even predicted which words would mislead us! This was a savvy reminder of the power of suggestion and how our minds consolidate/reconsolidate some mental cues better than others. His collaborator and a major pioneer of this field – Elizabeth Loftus – gave a great interview on the mind’s malleability forRadioLab in 2007."
unquote

Here is the RadioLab Loftus link. I haven't looked at this one.

http://www.radiolab.org/2007/jun/07/adding-memory/
 
Claims are not evidence for themselves. That's a simple, inescapable fact, no matter how you try to spin it otherwise.


Just more of your semantics to deny that perception and memory provide evidence. In fact without perception and memory you wouldn't know anything at all ... that is the true "inescapable fact".


From the standpoint of a third party, exactly how are they different? Some people may think they know that, but those people might be mistaken, delusional, or simply lying. Lacking evidence, there's no way to know for sure.


I'll grant you the above with the following exception. People might also be telling you a truth that is accurate enough to deduce that alien craft are real and have visited Earth.


Not so. They did it with mind control, ESP, remote viewing, and many other forms of modern "fairy tales." It happens. Have you ever served in the military? If you had, you might realize the military culture is not nearly as scientific and sophisticated as you seem to think it is.


Such investigations are not the same as your portrayals which equate them to being no different than looking for unicorns or fairies. Besides, the training and experience of military aircraft pilots is serious. Unless all the hype I've seen about it is bogus, it requires a lot of testing both physically and psychologically.


You're also well aware that there's not a single iota of conclusive, physical, measurable, testable evidence for any of it. And that's where we stand. The J. Randall Murphy UFO (alien craft) null hypothesis,
"All UFO sightings are of mundane origin"
has never been falsified.


The Battelle Memorial Institute study falsifies the above hypothesis, ( which you continue to incorrectly label as mine ).


Come back when you have some conclusive, physical, measurable, testable evidence to falsify the null hypothesis. Then we'll talk.
Until then, it's just fairy tales.


It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know UFOs are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that. The problem ( as you have pointed out ), is discerning in the absence of testable physical evidence, which reports have value and which ones don't. But the bottom line is still that because we don't know for certain that every report without tangible testable evidence doesn't represent an actual UFO ( alien craft ), it isn't reasonable to simply sit back with a smug attitude and denounce them all as "fairy tales".

So what can you offer besides sitting back and being critical? I asked for some feedback on the Clark McClelland ( Stargate Chronicles ) guy and got back about as much as I could dig up in 5 minutes on the Internet. Is digging up any real info like skeptic Lance did on Imbrogno too much work?
 
Special Pleading, part CXXIV:

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know faries are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that. (Heck, I have even heard that they wear boots!)

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know UFOs are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know Jesus is real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know bigfoot is real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know the Virgin of Guadalupe is real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know chupacabras are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know ghosts are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know Allah is real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know intraterrestrial space fishes are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know ghosts are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know psychic predictions are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know "zero point energy" is real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know the New World Order is real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know reincarnation is real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know Scientology's powers are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know cold fusion is real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.​
 
Just more of your semantics to deny that perception and memory provide evidence. In fact without perception and memory you wouldn't know anything at all ... that is the true "inescapable fact".
I'm glad you can admit to the J Randall Murphy UFO ( firefly ) Hoax. Our perceptions and memories of your Hoax are infallible.

I'll grant you the above with the following exception. People might also be telling you a truth that is accurate enough to deduce that alien craft are real and have visited Earth.
They might. There just isn't any evidence for it. Certainly no evidence that will falsify the J Randall Murphy null hypothesis which is:

"All UFOs are of mundane origin"​
Stories will never falsify it.

Such investigations are not the same as your portrayals which equate them to being no different than looking for unicorns or fairies. Besides, the training and experience of military aircraft pilots is serious. Unless all the hype I've seen about it is bogus, it requires a lot of testing both physically and psychologically.
You deliberately and dishonestly mischaracterize the military's interest in UFOs (foreign assets). You dishonestly refuse to address the fact that no military in the world has a budget for fending off Alien Space Ships. The child's game you play is all well and good if that's how you want to live your life. Don't pretend that your delusions are reality.

The Battelle Memorial Institute study falsifies the above hypothesis, ( which you continue to incorrectly label as mine ).
No, you dishonestly claim the opposite of reality. Again. Please stop with your dishonesty.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know UFOs are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that. The problem ( as you have pointed out ), is discerning in the absence of testable physical evidence, which reports have value and which ones don't. But the bottom line is still that because we don't know for certain that every report without tangible testable evidence doesn't represent an actual UFO ( alien craft firefly ), it isn't reasonable to simply sit back with a smug attitude and denounce them all as "fairy tales".
Fixed your fairy tale for you.

So what can you offer besides sitting back and being critical? I asked for some feedback on the Clark McClelland ( Stargate Chronicles ) guy and got back about as much as I could dig up in 5 minutes on the Internet. Is digging up any real info like skeptic Lance did on Imbrogno too much work?
You want people with critical thinking skills to abandon them to satisfy your fairy tale? No.

Let's discuss the J Randall Murphy UFO ( firefly ) Hoax. Why do you think the hoaxer thought he could get away with changing so many aspects of his story when it was committed to black and white on an internet forum. Everyone could see how the hoaxer changed details over time as the contradictions were pointed out to him.

What do you think of the mindset of the hoaxer?
 
It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know UFOs are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. ".

Assuming your redefinition of UFO as WTFALIENS!, how would anyone know they're real without evidence? By what standard could one make such a claim?
 
So you're not part of the crowd here who seems to be claiming that human perception and memory is so poor that none of it can be counted on to be accurate.
Puh-leeze. Because we don't know if any particular memory is accurate or not (in general, some are and some aren't), it is prudent to place less trust in memories that

1. are of one-time events (less confirmation)
2. are fantastic in nature (extraordinary claims needing extraordinary evidence)
3. have no physical corroboration
4. have especially critical consequences (a lot of money rides on it, history gets re-written, someone goes to jail, etc.)
5. maybe a few other criteria that I can't remember right now (hah! get it?)

You seem to want to make a blanket judgment that all memories are either to be trusted or not, rather than subjecting those memories which meet the criteria above to a higher degree of suspicion.
Do you recognize that it is entirely possible for someone to observe a UFO well enough to compare its appearance and performance to natural and manmade objects?
Hypothetically? Maybe, but it would have to be demonstrated that the comparison was accurate, complete, etc.
 
Just more of your semantics to deny that perception and memory provide evidence. In fact without perception and memory you wouldn't know anything at all ... that is the true "inescapable fact".


When it's not verifiable through independent sources, it may be dismissed as a mere fabrication.

I'll grant you the above with the following exception. People might also be telling you a truth that is accurate enough to deduce that alien craft are real and have visited Earth.


Given that your definition of "truth" is wholly different than pretty much any other English speaking person, your comment above is definitively gibberish. Let's not forget...

Truth and reality are two seaparate issues. Therefore truth itself doesn't correspond to objective reality or any other reality.

However, in the real world where rational, critical thinking people dwell, where truth and reality are inextricably connected, nothing yet has been experienced by a human that is "accurate enough to deduce that alien craft are real and have visited Earth".

Such investigations are not the same as your portrayals which equate them to being no different than looking for unicorns or fairies. Besides, the training and experience of military aircraft pilots is serious. Unless all the hype I've seen about it is bogus, it requires a lot of testing both physically and psychologically.


Looking for unicorns and fairies has resulted in exactly the same level of success as looking for alien craft. In that regard they are exactly equal. Unless of course you are able to falsify your null hypothesis...

"All UFO sightings are of mundane origin."

The Battelle Memorial Institute study falsifies the above hypothesis, ( which you continue to incorrectly label as mine ).


It's yours. Science, as opposed to the pseudoscience popularly known as "ufology", is a method which is effectively utilized to help us determine the truth about the universe we live in. You made the claim that some UFOs are alien craft, and as a consequence science attaches the null hypothesis to the claim. It only goes away when you either rescind the claim or falsify the null hypothesis. Here's a clue: Complaining about it or dishonestly trying to shed it through adamant denial will not make it go away. It's not a flea you can scratch until it falls off. You're stuck with it.

It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know UFOs are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that. The problem ( as you have pointed out ), is discerning in the absence of testable physical evidence, which reports have value and which ones don't. But the bottom line is still that because we don't know for certain that every report without tangible testable evidence doesn't represent an actual UFO ( alien craft ), it isn't reasonable to simply sit back with a smug attitude and denounce them all as "fairy tales".


Lewis Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland wasn't a true story, and neither is your story about a giant talking bunny. Unless you've got something more than your demonstrably untrue UFO tales (the J. Randall Murphy UFO hoax) and giant talking bunny stories, they cannot be rationally accepted as any more true or reality based than any other fairy tales. (Of course by comparison, Carroll's was original and well written.) It doesn't require smug to understand that. All it requires is a bit of critical thinking and objectivity, traits sorely and glaringly lacking in the pseudoscience of "ufology".

So what can you offer besides sitting back and being critical? I asked for some feedback on the Clark McClelland ( Stargate Chronicles ) guy and got back about as much as I could dig up in 5 minutes on the Internet. Is digging up any real info like skeptic Lance did on Imbrogno too much work?


How about you tell us what it is exactly about your very own UFO tale that makes it objectively any different than any other UFO hoax?
 
Claims are not evidence for themselves. That's a simple, inescapable fact, no matter how you try to spin it otherwise.


Just more of your semantics to deny that perception and memory provide evidence. In fact without perception and memory you wouldn't know anything at all ... that is the true "inescapable fact".


It may be semantics, but it's a fact. "Perception and memory" cannot be shared among individuals. That's why they're generally useless as evidence. Without evidence that others can independently verify, you have no way of knowing for sure that even your own memories are correct. That's the inescapable fact that you persistently ignore.


From the standpoint of a third party, exactly how are they different? Some people may think they know that, but those people might be mistaken, delusional, or simply lying. Lacking evidence, there's no way to know for sure.


I'll grant you the above with the following exception. People might also be telling you a truth that is accurate enough to deduce that alien craft are real and have visited Earth.


As I said, lacking evidence, there's no way to know for sure.

Considering these "space alien" claims have been part of the common folklore for well over half a century without a single shred of actual, verifiable physical evidence, that's a pretty good indicator that the chances of them being real are very slim indeed.


Such investigations are not the same as your portrayals which equate them to being no different than looking for unicorns or fairies.


The results of the investigations have been every bit as conclusive as the hunt for unicorns and fairies, so they're alike in that regard at least.


Besides, the training and experience of military aircraft pilots is serious. Unless all the hype I've seen about it is bogus, it requires a lot of testing both physically and psychologically.


This is irrelevant. Training doesn't make people immune to mistakes, prevent them from lying, or make them impervious to other individuals with a particular agenda making mistakes and/or lying about them.

Regardless who's making the claim, claims are not evidence. Evidence is what is required to validate claims.


You're also well aware that there's not a single iota of conclusive, physical, measurable, testable evidence for any of it. And that's where we stand.

The J. Randall Murphy UFO (alien craft) null hypothesis,


"All UFO sightings are of mundane origin"


has never been falsified.


The Battelle Memorial Institute study falsifies the above hypothesis, ( which you continue to incorrectly label as mine ).


The J. Randall Murphy UFO (alien craft) null hypothesis is not an hypothesis; it's a null hypothesis. It is yours whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. It was created the moment you claimed your own hypothesis:


"Some UFOs are of alien origin."


The null hypothesis is merely the converse of your hypothesis, to wit:


"All UFO sightings are of mundane origin."


And it has not been falsified. The Battelle Memorial Institute study has never falsified anything. It even says so within its own abstract.


It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know UFOs are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that.


What about people who know they're Napoleon Bonaparte? Does their belief make it true? Can you or I change that?


The problem ( as you have pointed out ), is discerning in the absence of testable physical evidence, which reports have value and which ones don't.


Wrong.

No amount of reports will ever suffice in the absence of testable physical evidence. Reports are nothing more than claims. They constitute absolutely no verifiable evidence of anything non-mundane in themselves.


But the bottom line is still that because we don't know for certain that every report without tangible testable evidence doesn't represent an actual UFO ( alien craft ), it isn't reasonable to simply sit back with a smug attitude and denounce them all as "fairy tales".


That is yet another argument from ignorance from you.

It's totally backwards thinking. Not knowing everything does not constitute proof of anything, let alone the existence of an assumed thing such as outer space aliens, gods, unicorns, ghosts, garage dragons, or indeed even fairies.

:boggled:

Jeez, just considering that line of reasoning for a moment is enough to make my head spin. How can you live every day of your life in that kind of thinking?


So what can you offer besides sitting back and being critical?


Um, you might want to scroll up and examine the tagline in the web page header. See the words "critical thinking"?

If you're looking for credulous thinking, go back to the Paracast Forums.


I asked for some feedback on the Clark McClelland ( Stargate Chronicles ) guy and got back about as much as I could dig up in 5 minutes on the Internet. Is digging up any real info like skeptic Lance did on Imbrogno too much work?


You're the self-described UFOlogist. Why aren't you investigating it yourself?

It's been what, like a month now and you still haven't made any progress on that? Is it too much work for you to Google that stuff on your own?
 
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"Perception and memory" cannot be shared among individuals. That's why they're generally useless as evidence. Without evidence that others can independently verify, you have no way of knowing for sure that even your own memories are correct. That's the inescapable fact that you persistently ignore.
Good points. Here's another way to look at it.

Take a memory of a long-ago event. If this memory is accurate, HOW could we know it is accurate? Not because memories, in general, can be relied on, but because it must have been verified in some way.

Memories need verification. They maybe well be true, but we won't know unless we verify it in some fashion. You just can't say "Memories are accurate to a degree of XX%" and then be done with your verification.
 
Thanks Paul,

So you're not part of the crowd here who seems to be claiming that human perception and memory is so poor that none of it can be counted on to be accurate. Perhaps you are part of that other crowd who claims that only those things we remember that don't fit our worldview must be in error, or maybe you're with the crowd who thinks everyone else's memory is faulty ... especially when someone else's memory doesn't match your worldview? At least when someone says something that doesn't match your world view, you don't act like the bigots here who assume such people are liars. Or at least I tend to get that impression. But I could also be wrong. Do you recognize that it is entirely possible for someone to observe a UFO well enough to compare its appearance and performance to natural and manmade objects?

We're supposed to accept your memory as scripture?
 
The Battelle Memorial Institute study falsifies the above hypothesis,
Remind us again how it could possibly falsify the null hypothesis;
"all UFO's are of mundane origin"

When the conclusion of the (Project Blue Book) 'Battelle study Special Report 14' was;

"highly improbable that any of the reports of unidentified aerial objects represent observations of technological developments outside the range of present-day knowledge"

That sounds to me like it's confirming the null hypothesis not falsifying it.
 
So you're not part of the crowd here who seems to be claiming that human perception and memory is so poor that none of it can be counted on to be accurate. Perhaps you are part of that other crowd who claims that only those things we remember that don't fit our worldview must be in error, or maybe you're with the crowd who thinks everyone else's memory is faulty ... especially when someone else's memory doesn't match your worldview?


No one here is claiming that human memory is so poor that none of it can be counted on to be accurate. That is a straw man argument, and you know it.

You've probably forgotten by now, but what people here are arguing against are your claims that your own memories from decades ago are infallible. If you need a reminder:

Are we to further pretend that your now 37-year-old memories of this 'event' are an accurate reconstruction?


Every answer I give is as how it happened. If I wasn't certain, or didn't recall, I'd say so. Everyone has certain things they never forget. Many people can remember certain things from a very young age very clearly. I have brief recollections of things from much younger than that. Is your memory really so bad you don't remember things from your teen years or childhood?


Your continued claims on the infallibility of your memory makes most--if not all--of what you say you remember highly suspect.
 
Every answer I give is as how it happened. If I wasn't certain, or didn't recall, I'd say so. Everyone has certain things they never forget. Many people can remember certain things from a very young age very clearly. I have brief recollections of things from much younger than that. Is your memory really so bad you don't remember things from your teen years or childhood?
Please, before you embarrass yourself further - read up a little on how memory works. :o
 
bla ... bla ... bla ... it would have to be demonstrated that the comparison was accurate, complete, etc.


And if it were demonstrated to the person who observed it then is that not proof enough for the witness?
 
The evidence for the ET gods can never be tangible or distinguishable from the hoaxes and confused sightings of various mundane phenomena. This surely is not the path for true belief. You just need to reject the null hypothesis, and redefine them into existence within your heart. Hallelujah, brothers for I have seen the lights.
 
<stuff snipped> It's just fairy tales in your worldview. For those who know UFOs are real it's an entirely different thing. You can't change that. I can't even change that. The problem ( as you have pointed out ), is discerning in the absence of testable physical evidence, which reports have value and which ones don't. But the bottom line is still that because we don't know for certain that every report without tangible testable evidence doesn't represent an actual UFO ( alien craft ), it isn't reasonable to simply sit back with a smug attitude and denounce them all as "fairy tales".

Mr Ufology, sorry if I seemed flippant in my last but I see little grounds for taking what you have been saying seriously. Your preceding comment, together with your dismissal of the null hypothesis as applying to your claims and redefining unidentified as saucers, really does leave us in a faith position for belief in UFOs as aliens.


So what can you offer besides sitting back and being critical? I asked for some feedback on the Clark McClelland ( Stargate Chronicles ) guy and got back about as much as I could dig up in 5 minutes on the Internet. Is digging up any real info like skeptic Lance did on Imbrogno too much work?

I am surprised that with your declared long-standing interest in the phenomena of UFO sightings that you have not brought more to the table in the way of interesting sightings and extra detail gleaned from all those books you link on your website.
 
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And if it were demonstrated to the person who observed it then is that not proof enough for the witness?
Interesting question. But think about this- "being demonstrated to the person who observed" and the next step which is being "proof enough for the witness" are not equal to being real. People can be fooled and different people have different standards for what would be considered "proof enough".

Professional magicians, FX techs, politicians, priests, mediums and scammers can demonstrate lots of things and provide "proof enough" for a lot of people. Will these things actually be real? Will the presented "proofs enough" and their accounts by those convinced by them be actually enough for other people?

A Raelian certainly will tell you he/she considers Raelian claims as having been demonstrated and that the demonstrations provided proof enough for them. Same is valid for the folks who believe in homeopathy, Jesus-the-son-of-God, bigfoot, Loch Ness monster, ghosts, MiBs and giant white rabbits that can talk, among other nonsense.

How can we draw a line of what's enough? Well, it's been already told lots of times. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Compare these two claims: "I remember seeing a dog when I was a child" and "I remember seeing a fuzzy dog passing through a fence when I was a child". Can't you figure out what it should take to convince the observer and a third person about the reality of each experience?

The mere recollection of the experience and its account?

I don't think so. Unless we are talking about gullible persons.
 
ufology, take the example of any WWII action account - personal action account. I have lots of books on my shelf within which first hand accounts are related. For example: Tank Rider: Into the Reich with the Red Army. If this book was all we had, would we take it for granted that the account(s) given were necessarily true? I don't think so.

What we actually do is add up all the other accounts as well - official government documents that confirm that "X" battle took place at "Y" location (government documents are awesome in regards to official history because their intent is to record facts and figures for purely practical reasons); other personal accounts of the same incident preferably from the opposing side; battlefield artifacts confirming events etc etc.

A claim or recount is absolutely nothing on its own. You must admit to this.

Tank Rider: Into the Reich with the Red Army is an amazingly personal and vivid story but if that's all there was no-one would give it the time of day.
 
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