Merged So there was melted steel

[Grizzly Bear]

DOH!!! Not the meteorites again! Concrete people... concrete... How do you miss that it's CONCRETE?

 

[NoahFence]

DOH!!! Not the meteorites again! Concrete people... concrete... How do you miss that it's CONCRETE?

Well, most of us can see that as plain as day. Others? Well, they see what they want to see.

 

[The Platypus]

The Official Story is a theory.

MM

But what happened to the "official story" being some pre-written script, part of the master plan, now suddenly it's a theory?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Well, most of us can see that as plain as day. Others? Well, they see what they want to see.

As I recall AE911truth made the strawman that aluminum doesn't "rust" to counter any argument that the meteorites weren't big chunks of steel. Putting aside that nobody claimed the meteorites were aluminum, rust from the rebar is more than capable of running on and staining concrete, and the structure of the reinforcing rebar providing tensile strength is a dead give away. I'm just shocked nobody's gotten bored of using those things thinking people wouldn't catch it.

 

[NoahFence]

As I recall AE911truth made the strawman that aluminum doesn't "rust" to counter any argument that the meteorites weren't big chunks of steel. Putting aside that nobody claimed the meteorites were aluminum, rust from the rebar is more than capable of running on and staining concrete, and the structure of the reinforcing rebar providing tensile strength is a dead give away. I'm just shocked nobody's gotten bored of using those things thinking people wouldn't catch it.

Look who you're referring to. They beat a dead horse as a matter of their daily lives, and lie constantly.

 

[NoahFence]

But what happened to the "official story" being some pre-written script, part of the master plan, now suddenly it's a theory?

..Don't forget too, the "offical story theory" at least touches on the entire day and doesn't ignore things that it can't explain.

(this due to the fact that there is nothing it can't explain)

 

[twinstead]

There is no "theory" that explains ALL the evidence better than the "official theory". If it is indeed just a theory, REAL skeptics are compelled to accept it as the default until a better one comes along

 

[Miragememories]

"Even the claim that the collapses was totally unexpected isn't entirely true. The FDNY on-site commander ordered the evacuation of WTC1 before the collapse of WTC2 based solely on the evidence of failing structural integrity in the lobby."

formatting changes are mine

Before WTC2 collapsed?

Keep in mind, both WTC 1 and WTC 2 had been struck by aircraft and the subsequent fires were now common knowledge to the FDNY Chiefs.

According to that New York Times story;

At 9:20 a.m. none of the chiefs present at the meeting believed a total collapse of either tower was possible.

At a later unspecified time, one of the senior chiefs at the meeting indicated a concern that that possibly upper floors could begin to collapse in a few hours. He said firefighters should not ascend above the 60th floor.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch9.htm
"Despite his lack of knowledge of what had happened to the South Tower, a chief in the process of evacuating the North Tower lobby sent out an order within a minute of the collapse: "Command to all units in Tower 1, evacuate the building." Another chief from the North Tower lobby soon followed with an additional evacuation order issued on tactical."

"Contrary to a widely held misperception, no NYPD helicopter predicted the fall of either tower before the South Tower collapsed, and no NYPD personnel began to evacuate the WTC complex prior to that time. Furthermore, the FDNY, as an institution, was in possession of the knowledge that the South Tower had collapsed as early as the NYPD, as its fall had been immediately reported by an FDNY boat on a dispatch channel."

"A separate matter is the varied success at conveying evacuation instructions to personnel in the North Tower after the South Tower's collapse."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_and_recovery_effort_after_the_September_11_attacks
"When the South Tower collapsed at 9:59 a.m., firefighters in the North Tower were not aware of exactly what had happened. The battalion chief in the North Tower lobby immediately issued an order over the radio for firefighters in the tower to evacuate, but many did not hear the order, due to the faulty radios."

"Meanwhile, the NYPD aviation unit observing the buildings from the air observed the bowing of the exterior walls and determined that a collapse was imminent.

That's two totally independent determinations by first responders who were actually there that the buildings were at risk of structural failure, both derived from evidence of a gradual deterioration of the structure's integrity, and both irrefutably ruling out explosives as a cause for the collapse."

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/wtc1.html
"At 10:07 a police helicopter radioed a warning for firefighters to evacuate the North Tower because the South Tower had just collapsed."

Again;

"Contrary to a widely held misperception, no NYPD helicopter predicted the fall of either tower before the South Tower collapsed, and no NYPD personnel began to evacuate the WTC complex prior to that time. Furthermore, the FDNY, as an institution, was in possession of the knowledge that the South Tower had collapsed as early as the NYPD, as its fall had been immediately reported by an FDNY boat on a dispatch channel."

MM

 

[sheeplesnshills]

The Official Story is a theory.

MM

and the really cool thing is that it has enormous quantities of high quality evidence and yours has almost none and what it has is of risible quality.

So its a theory in the same way that Gravity and Evolution are theories......whilst yours is more like a fairy tale.....say tinkerbelle and the lost boys............

 

[NoahFence]

Before WTC2 collapsed?

[qimg]http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/6533/noconcernofwtccollapsea.jpg[/qimg]

The more you post that article the more stupid it becomes. You're essentially quote-mining how a couple of firefighters felt before the 1st building collapsed. So what. How'd they feel after that first one collapsed?

I love how you and your people think on one hand, everybody associated with this is so brilliant that they couldn't possibly be wrong when it suits you, and can't possibly be right when it doesn't. Even the same people!

GET A NEW HOBBY

 

[BasqueArch]

Totally wrong. For example:

look here

"Approximately 4,000 personal photographs
$78,318.47 in domestic and foreign currency
54,000 personal items such as identification cards and driver licenses"

and so on ....

Do you realise, MM, that you're only lying to yourself?

No, he doesn't. In his Kingdom of the Red Queen he's only lying to his image in the mirror.

 

[tsig]

Unlike you, I at least have a published paper backed up by reputable scientists who have tested the red chips and accept a conclusion that they are thermitic.

You have nothing but heavily biased, amateur opinions to act in rebuttal.

When professionals publish a paper that specifically refutes the claim made in Dr. Harriet et Al's paper, then you have a basis for questioning my proof.

Primer paint is just not cutting it!

MM

And the peers that reviewed the paper were the same ones who wrote the paper. Guess that cuts down on the email traffic.

 

[BasqueArch]

The Official Story is a theory.

MM

Right. You don't know proper science. A theory is a proven hypothesis. Your hypothesis is the discombobulated Official Truther Myth.

 

[tsig]

formatting changes are mine

Before WTC2 collapsed?

[qimg]http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/6533/noconcernofwtccollapsea.jpg[/qimg]

Keep in mind, both WTC 1 and WTC 2 had been struck by aircraft and the subsequent fires were now common knowledge to the FDNY Chiefs.

According to that New York Times story;

At 9:20 a.m. none of the chiefs present at the meeting believed a total collapse of either tower was possible.

At a later unspecified time, one of the senior chiefs at the meeting indicated a concern that that possibly upper floors could begin to collapse in a few hours. He said firefighters should not ascend above the 60th floor.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report_Ch9.htm
"Despite his lack of knowledge of what had happened to the South Tower, a chief in the process of evacuating the North Tower lobby sent out an order within a minute of the collapse: "Command to all units in Tower 1, evacuate the building." Another chief from the North Tower lobby soon followed with an additional evacuation order issued on tactical."

"Contrary to a widely held misperception, no NYPD helicopter predicted the fall of either tower before the South Tower collapsed, and no NYPD personnel began to evacuate the WTC complex prior to that time. Furthermore, the FDNY, as an institution, was in possession of the knowledge that the South Tower had collapsed as early as the NYPD, as its fall had been immediately reported by an FDNY boat on a dispatch channel."

"A separate matter is the varied success at conveying evacuation instructions to personnel in the North Tower after the South Tower's collapse."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_and_recovery_effort_after_the_September_11_attacks
"When the South Tower collapsed at 9:59 a.m., firefighters in the North Tower were not aware of exactly what had happened. The battalion chief in the North Tower lobby immediately issued an order over the radio for firefighters in the tower to evacuate, but many did not hear the order, due to the faulty radios."



http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/wtc1.html
"At 10:07 a police helicopter radioed a warning for firefighters to evacuate the North Tower because the South Tower had just collapsed."

Again;

"Contrary to a widely held misperception, no NYPD helicopter predicted the fall of either tower before the South Tower collapsed, and no NYPD personnel began to evacuate the WTC complex prior to that time. Furthermore, the FDNY, as an institution, was in possession of the knowledge that the South Tower had collapsed as early as the NYPD, as its fall had been immediately reported by an FDNY boat on a dispatch channel."

MM

They were wrong. The buildings did fall .I hope you're aware of that.

 

[Miragememories]

No, it would be an utterly bizarre expectation that disagreed with everything that's known about heat conduction. A red hot end would be nowhere near hot enough for steel to be dripping off it. The only informed conclusion to reach, if the end that liquid was dripping from was red hot, would be that the material dripping from it was something other than steel. Of course, observers at the scene probably didn't have a good grasp of colour temperatures or the melting point of steel, so it's understandable that they should be mistaken; but what you suggest, and what they concluded, is physically impossible.

Dave

Well Dave I suggest you take your "absolutely impossible" beliefs up with someone who was there and can speak first hand about what he observed. Your sitting-in-front-of-a-computer incredulity has zero credibility.

"The fires got very intense down there and actually melted beams where it was molten steel being dug up."

MM

 

[NoahFence]

boring troll is boring.

You've got about 40 unanswered questions.

 

[Miragememories]

Totally wrong. For example:

look here

"Approximately 4,000 personal photographs
$78,318.47 in domestic and foreign currency
54,000 personal items such as identification cards and driver licenses"

and so on ....

Do you realise, MM, that you're only lying to yourself?

"Yeah lots of fluttering papers"

Read much Glenn?

Oh and I never claimed 100% pulverization. A few items escaped and I didn't include vehicle stuff and the firefighter gear.

"I think the lack of artifacts stands out to me quite a bit. I think the fact that I haven't seen a door, I haven't seen a phone, I haven't seen a computer. I haven't seen a door knob. I think that stands out. But for the things that we have seen, every now and then, we'll come across a stuffed animal that might have been on somebody's desk, pictures that were on people's desks that we are trying to restore."

Looking at just the WTC Twin Towers, we have extremely few recognizable artifacts from those two gigantic buildings.

110 stories each, with each floor covering one acre.

MM

 

[NoahFence]

That's 110 stories of steel and concrete pulverizing everything from PCs to human bodies.

(you do know this hobby of yours includes dead people, right?)

What are you expecting?

Actually, would you mind telling the class how THERMITE can crush objects? Saying nothing is recognizable does nothing at all to further your silly theories. Nothing. It just proves heavy stuff can obliterate not so heavy stuff. Not exactly rocket science.

 

[Miragememories]

DOH!!! Not the meteorites again! Concrete people... concrete... How do you miss that it's CONCRETE?

Of course there is no denying the existence of concrete in these objects.

The term meteorite has been applied for good reason.

These are examples of fused molten steel, concrete, rebar, etc into a single object.

It took extreme heat to create this.

These are not chunks of sidewalk or decking.

MM

 

[gumboot]

formatting changes are mine

Before WTC2 collapsed?

Yes. Watch the Naudet brother's 9/11 documentary if you don't believe me. The evacuation order for WTC1 is on video. The evacuation was underway at the time that WTC2 collapsed. These are indisputable facts.

By 9:30 a.m., after both planes had struck, a rumor was circulating that a third hijacked plane was headed to New York. Assistant Chief Joseph Callan recalled feeling the north tower move. ''I made the decision that the building was no longer safe,'' the chief told the Fire Department's oral history interviewers.

''All units in Building 1,'' he announced over the radio at 9:32. ''All units in Building 1, come out, down to the lobby. Everybody down to the lobby.''

Virtually no one answered his call. It seemed that few people, apart from those standing near him, heard it. Chief Peter Hayden, who was at the scene, said: ''We had ordered the firefighters down, but we weren't getting acknowledgments. We were very concerned about it.''

NY Times

It's notable that Battalion Chief Joseph Pfeifer, who was the first commander on site, ordered his own men down, and as a result Battalion 1 didn't lose a single firefighter, despite being the very first firefighters to arrive on the scene and start climbing WTC1. This raises the question of whether the firemen climbing WTC1 didn't hear the evacuation order, or simply ignored it. Certainly some of Pfeifer's own men report passing other firemen in WTC1 who were making no effort to evacuate, so we know some of them knew of the evacuation order and chose to ignore it.

Although to be fair, Pfeifer's men had actually witnessed AA11's impact so probably had a better idea of what was actually happening than most of the firefighters.

I was mistaken about the NYPD aviation unit; they indeed didn't report on an imminent collapse until after WTC2 collapsed. Apologies.