Are Agnostics Welcome Here?

[tsig]

No, I do not believe that doubting G-d's existence is more disrespectful than spelling out the word. Why? Because if there is anything out there, I am positive that it would be good- and would want people to think for themselves. Even my rabbi who knows I am agnostic has told me that doubting is perfectly normal; it's unusual not to doubt. If you do not have any cultural affiliation with a religious group, I realize it can be a difficult concept to understand the use of G-d. However, to become so obviously angry about it simply makes absolutely no sense. "Can you see how laughable you are?" No, but I can see how angry and bitter you are.

Why ever would you think that? Making life have to eat life to exist is good? Maybe god made us for his pleasure and he's a sadist.

 

[tsig]

Is "you people" referring to me? Because the G-d that I hope exists is one of good, not evil. Do people commit atrocities in the name of a higher power? Unfortunately yes. However the same can be true for money, land and power over other people. Atrocities happen for numerous reasons. You conveniently leave out the millions of people alive today who are good, caring people who happen to also believe in a higher power. Are you going to tell me that these people are evil? If you don't believe in G-d, more power to you- but to say that people who do believe in something are really believing in monsters is downright insulting.

Let's see:

God screwed the whole Universe because his pet ate the wrong food then drowned everyone except his faves because he didn't like them.

 

[tsig]

I have to disagree. If I meet a stranger for the first time I automatically am respectful; this person does not have to earn my respect first. However, respect can obviously be lost if they are disrespectful to me. If you've read many of the comments directed towards me on this thread you would understand what I'm referring to. I started this thread after having read other threads on religion; I obviously realized that the majority of people on this site are avowed atheists and would disagree with me. To expect otherwise would be silly. However, many of the comments directed my way have been simply mean spirited and insulting. If these posters are trying to persuade me, they're not doing a very good job.

We tell you what we think and you call us mean spirited and insulting.

Why would you think that anyone wanted to persuade you of anything?

 

[Leumas]

G-d = Circumcised God...part III

Oh, by the way, I had "cultural affiliation" with a fundamentalist religion for over 30 years, and not one of them ever instructed me to spell the word god incompletely, for any reason. It seems to be a specifically Jewish thing to do, more power to them. It also is patently ridiculous. But you just go on with your not-bitter, not-angry self.

Circumcising the word God is definitely not a Jewish practice as I have demonstrated to Nicole many times already (see below but specifically this one). It must be some new brand of RIDICULOUS Jewish fundamentalism just like the Evangelical movement.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7715401#post7715401
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7715660#post7715660
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7699246#post7699246
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7699365#post7699365
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7700287#post7700287



Rabbis and Jewish luminaries would not support this mutilation of an English word that has absolutely NOTHING to do with YHWH or Judaism.


I do however recall seening it among some Christian fundamentalists who like to think of themselves as Jews....also I have seen it among some who allege that they belong to a group who call themselves Jews for Christ…. I am not if they are Jews or not.


Does anyone know if the Jehova Witnesses do this???

"It is patently ridiculous". No, you're not mean bitter or angry. My mistake.
As for your point about logic, no it absolutely does not seem ridiculous to me in the slightest. Why would anything in the universe be "evil"? I may not be sure if G-d exists but I am 110% sure there is no devil or hell.

You are not sure s/he/it exists.....you do not know how to describe it.....BUT....you KNOW that s/he/it prefers it if you MUTILATE the English language.....

You are also SURE that s/he/it is a nice GUY....despite you being sure that this thing that you are not sure exists is a nice guy and is not going to be so petty as to create hell.....nevertheless .....you are CERTAIN that s/he/it would prefer you to CIRCUMCISE the English word God as a sign of respect for it.

If you cannot see how RIDICULOUS your illogic is then you are beyond hopelessly deluded.

 

[Leumas]

No, I do not believe that doubting G-d's existence is more disrespectful than spelling out the word. Why? Because if there is anything out there, I am positive that it would be good- and would want people to think for themselves. Even my rabbi who knows I am agnostic has told me that doubting is perfectly normal; it's unusual not to doubt. If you do not have any cultural affiliation with a religious group, I realize it can be a difficult concept to understand the use of G-d. However, to become so obviously angry about it simply makes absolutely no sense. "Can you see how laughable you are?" No, but I can see how angry and bitter you are.

So please ask your Rabbi to explain these verses to you....how loving is YHWH in these verses???? How much doubt are you allowed the luxury of having in these verses?????

You are absolutely DELUDED if you think this lovey dovey god of yours (that you cannot describe) is in anyway related to YHWH in any form whatsoever.


Deuteronomy 28:

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the LORD your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.
53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the LORD your God— 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Deuteronomy

{22:13} If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, {22:14} And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: {22:15} Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth [the tokens of] the damsel’s virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:[....]
{22:20} But if this thing be true, [and the tokens of] virginity be not found for the damsel: {22:21} Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

Deuteronomy

{13:6} If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; {13:7} [Namely,] of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; {13:8} Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: {13:9} But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. {13:10} And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. {13:11} And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Deuteronomy

{13:12} If thou shalt hear [say] in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, {13:13} [Certain] men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; {13:14} Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, [if it be] truth, [and] the thing certain, [that] such abomination is wrought among you; {13:15} Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that [is] therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. {13:16} And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. {13:17} And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; {13:18} When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do [that which is] right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

 

[Leumas]

No, I do not believe that doubting G-d's existence is more disrespectful than spelling out the word. Why? Because if there is anything out there, I am positive that it would be good- and would want people to think for themselves. Even my rabbi who knows I am agnostic has told me that doubting is perfectly normal; it's unusual not to doubt. If you do not have any cultural affiliation with a religious group, I realize it can be a difficult concept to understand the use of G-d. However, to become so obviously angry about it simply makes absolutely no sense. "Can you see how laughable you are?" No, but I can see how angry and bitter you are.

This Rabbi of yours is a NICE guy....but he is no Rabbi.....

Is he the same guy who told you that Homosexuality is alright?

Please ask him for me then is it ok for a man to sleep with his mother in law? Or his dog? Or for a woman to have it on with a horse?

If he says not...then what made him dismiss the first one of the following COMMANDMENTS but to keep the others?

What standard did he use to dismiss one of YHWH's commandments yet the same standard allows him to condemn a man who makes LOVE to his mother in law or LOVES his dog...or a woman who LOVES her horse?

Deuteronomy 28:

45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you.

Leviticus

{20:13} If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

{20:14} And if a man take a wife and her mother, it [is] wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

{20:15} And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

{20:16} And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

 

[laca]

Speaking only for myself, I'm open minded, but not so open that my brain may fall out. You asked firstly, if you thought the forum was welcoming of agnostics. The answer to that question is absolutely yes. Indeed, this forum is welcome to 'believers', as well.

What I am intolerant of, is people who claim to be one thing yet are another. I am completely unconvinced that you are indeed an agnostic - at least an agnostic as I understand the term.

I don't understand why you want to lay claim to this term. You clearly are passionate about many aspects of your Jewish culture, so just call yourself Jewish. Maybe your belief system isn't 'typical' of any particular type of Judaism, but you clearly are not agnostic.

- If you truly didn't know whether or not god existed, you wouldn't care whether or not you typed his name.
- Your defense of circumcision wouldn't be founded in religion.

No need for all the animosity and vitriol - I welcome anyone who is genuine.

She might be an agnostic theist, but no way she's an agnostic atheist.

 

[punshhh]

I'm sorry to have to put words in the mouth of the strong atheist position but my take is simply that they use a more useful version of know. When we are debating god, you are using the definition of knowledge that includes everything that could ever be or has ever been. That definition is useless to us humans because we will never know everything and some things will have happened in the past and will be forever lost to us.

I am "using a definition of knowledge" that includes what is beyond human perception. Not to consider such a realm of knowledge in discussing this subject is rather short sighted.

Now in the god case we have a definition for god. They are the definitions put up so far by the majority of the population. All those gods are bunk (a claim which you support I think). A strong atheist takes that and says....screw having to prove a negative. As far as we know or have seen there is no god. Period. Whatever it is out there will be something other than god if it exists.

This is the agnostic position.

If there is something out there it may not fit the recognised definition of god. However it may perform actions which are recognised as intelligent manipulation of our known universe.

An analogy would be big foot. I can say there is no big foot. Your counter claim will be there there could be a planet it some galaxy which has a big foot so it would be stupid of me to say there is no big foot. I hope you see the problem now. The big foot concept on earth is bunk. If there is a creature out there in the universe that is like a big foot it will be something else when we meet it (Wookie ) so I can comfortably say that there is no big foot.

Nice analogy, yes all I am saying to piggy is how can you know there are no big foots out there. Piggy is trying to side step this issue by saying that we can't define the wookie, by our definitions of big foot, in a meaningful way.
I don't accept this as a wookie has attributes which resemble big foot.

ie, the god "out there" can be defined as an intelligent(thinking) manipulator(originator) responsible for the known universe being the way we know it to be.

What often happens though is that a concept is created and when it fails its scope is increased or moved outside our boundary. You are trying to do that with your god example. A big foot believer could do the same thing. Do we now have to accept every crackpot idea because there are things we don't know? Isn't that completely useless? Isn't it better to simply accept things on evidence?

I have not moved my god concept as I have defined it in this thread.
I have attacked two philosophical ideas which I regard as intellectual obstacles in this discussion.
1; first cause/creation which is nonsensical.
2; infinite regression, infinity is an abstract human invention, it is a nonsense to try to apply it to existence.

 

[punshhh]

That gap between those 2 paragraphs is infinite.

You're saying "People might one day invent intelligent robots... how could that be possible if the universe weren't created by an intelligent God?"

You might as well ask "Someday a new species of pine tree will evolve... how could that be possible if the universe weren't created by a pine tree?"

You're making the same mistake over and over again in different forms.

Ok, yes I am saying there is an intelligent manipulator therefore there may be a god.

It gives me a rational reason for considering the possible existence of a god.

You have not given a rational reason for why you do not consider the possible existence of a god(by my definition). It is irrational to deny that things exist which are beyond humanity's perception. Even if they may be undefinable or inconceivable to humans, they may exist regardless.

 

[dafydd]

Ok, yes I am saying there is an intelligent manipulator therefore there may be a god.

It gives me a rational reason for considering the possible existence of a god.

You have not given a rational reason for why you do not consider the possible existence of a god(by my definition). It is irrational to deny that things exist which are beyond humanity's perception. Even if they may be undefinable or inconceivable to humans, they may exist regardless.

Your definition carries no weight. That is why you are being ignored.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

You miss the point. The universe is neither good, nor evil.

The universe simply doesn't care.

How would you or anyone know that the "universe doesn't care"?

 

[Nicole Friedman]

Your definition carries no weight. That is why you are being ignored.

I beg to differ. "Even if they may be undefinable or inconceivable to humans, they may exist regardless." We as humans do not completely understand how the universe works. To say we do would be lying. Also, to say that we can use our 5 senses to understand the universe entirely would be foolhardy; can we see or feel multiple dimensions for example? I can understand why people are naturally skeptical towards something that we cannot prove within our own physical means but that alone does not prove G-d does not exist. This is where philosophy comes in.

 

[the PC apeman]

How would you or anyone know that the "universe doesn't care"?

Because the Universe doesn't have a central nervous system.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

This Rabbi of yours is a NICE guy....but he is no Rabbi.....

Is he the same guy who told you that Homosexuality is alright?

Please ask him for me then is it ok for a man to sleep with his mother in law? Or his dog? Or for a woman to have it on with a horse?

If he says not...then what made him dismiss the first one of the following COMMANDMENTS but to keep the others?

What standard did he use to dismiss one of YHWH's commandments yet the same standard allows him to condemn a man who makes LOVE to his mother in law or LOVES his dog...or a woman who LOVES her horse?

Deuteronomy 28:




Leviticus

You post makes absolutely no sense. Aside from the strictly orthodox, most Jews I know, my rabbi included do not take the Torah literally. If you knew anything about Judaism, you would know that it is considered vastly more important to be a good human being to others than to obey any commandments towards G-d.

 

[dafydd]

I beg to differ. "Even if they may be undefinable or inconceivable to humans, they may exist regardless." We as humans do not completely understand how the universe works. To say we do would be lying. Also, to say that we can use our 5 senses to understand the universe entirely would be foolhardy; can we see or feel multiple dimensions for example? I can understand why people are naturally skeptical towards something that we cannot prove within our own physical means but that alone does not prove G-d does not exist. This is where philosophy comes in.

You are not familiar with punshhh?

 

[dafydd]

You post makes absolutely no sense. Aside from the strictly orthodox, most Jews I know, my rabbi included do not take the Torah literally. If you knew anything about Judaism, you would know that it is considered vastly more important to be a good human being to others than to obey any commandments towards G-d.

That's a good start. Maybe one day the Jews will realize that all gods are inventions of mankind.

 

[tsig]

I beg to differ. "Even if they may be undefinable or inconceivable to humans, they may exist regardless." We as humans do not completely understand how the universe works. To say we do would be lying. Also, to say that we can use our 5 senses to understand the universe entirely would be foolhardy; can we see or feel multiple dimensions for example? I can understand why people are naturally skeptical towards something that we cannot prove within our own physical means but that alone does not prove G-d does not exist. This is where philosophy comes in.

Where facts cease is where BS begins.

 

[Belz...]

What a pretentious, arrogant post.

How so ? Complexity correctly notes that the use of "g-d" either indicates religious belief, or unreasonable respect of religious beliefs. Complexity (and myself) is (are) well known for his (our) contempt of religion, so his post was honest.

 

[Belz...]

Your are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine; they have equal validity.

No. Opinions are not all equal.

 

[Belz...]

For anyone to call this superstition is YOUR personal bias for last I've checked, G-d has not been proven or disproven.

Check again.

As for those of you who would consider anyone who spells God "G-d" as unintelligent, that is your right.

Did someone here say that ? I think we're leaning more towards "misguided" or "weird". What do you say when you speak it aloud ? Gunderscored ? Gdashd ?