Are Agnostics Welcome Here?

[tsig]

Exactly. That behavior is not respectful. There is a difference between "You're a moron because" and "I disagree because". I had to stay away from this thread for a bit as I was getting bombarded with far too many disgustingly arrogant and angry posts. I am more than happy to debate with people who have completely opposing views to mine. However, as I try my best to do so respectfully, I can only ask for the same.

As long as they respect your views and don't really oppose them.

Respect is earned, it isn't a Divine Right.

 

[Leumas]

I stayed away for quite a while because I honestly found myself getting angry when reading some of this thread. I need to respond at this point. For those of you thinking that I prefer to spell God "G-d" out of fear, that is your own personal bias. I have explained numerous times on this very thread my beliefs, but to reiterate: I am agnostic but hopeful. Lately I've been leaning more towards theism than atheism, while in the past I was in the completely opposite direction. I do not spell God "G-d" out of fear but out of respect for something incredible that I sincerely hope is out there. For anyone to call this superstition is YOUR personal bias for last I've checked, G-d has not been proven or disproven. As for those of you who would consider anyone who spells God "G-d" as unintelligent, that is your right. However, I would feel likewise; someone who so casually labels someone as unintelligent is incredibly arrogant and ignorant.

So how is G-d/God to know when you are being respectful and not being respectful……

In the following posts you were being DISRESPECTFUL?????

You made excellent points! Why does God have to be defined, when the very definition of God is that it cannot be defined; at least by our limited human senses. That's why the very notion that one can prove or disprove God with science simply makes no sense to me.

Excellent point. If there is no God I would hope that we as human beings would still want to do good for the betterment of everyone, but why would many of us want to? If we're not here in this universe for a higher power, then morality and ethics are completely subjective.

But in this one you are being respectful?????

You wrote yet another extremely well thought out post.
The fact of the matter is that many atheists apparently do not want to admit that atheism is a belief; they treat their atheism as if it were scientific fact when it is not. Whereas many theists or agnostics (myself included) admit that the idea of G-d cannot be proven scientifically, at least with our limited means as they are now, nor with our human senses.
The reason that I am leaning more towards believing in G-d comes down to several things. First off, the very fact that we exist, that a universe exists as opposed to nothing should make any reasonably intelligent person at least ask themselves "Why?" Quantum physics has given a possible answer, that there are random fluctuations in a void, and perhaps one of those fluctuations led to a big bang. But was our universe really so random, when every little thing works so perfectly well and in tandem that allowed for us to evolve? Comparing the 2 possibilities; it seems that one would have to have faith in the possibility that we are here due to randomness just as much if not more than the possibility that there is a G-d. Secondly, if you have ever really loved anyone in your life, do you really believe that the love you have is due simply to biology or is it something deeper? Once you get brain damage and you are incapable of the emotion of love anymore, is that it? Logic tells me that there is more to the story than just neurons and electrical pulses.
Some of the atheists on this site are very thoughtful and respectful of others' beliefs, which is much appreciated. However, there are many more on here who do not seem to care at all about being rude, condescending or just plain angry and negative. In all of my 31 years, when discussing religion and faith, I've never encountered such hostility; and this is including people from the entire religious spectrum. (This is including people I've known who thought that only 100,000 people are getting into heaven- something I fervently disagree with but somehow they were able to discuss religion without hurling insults) For that reason this will be the last time I post in the religion forum. It's a waste of my time to try to have a reasonable, logical debate with people whose main argument is that anyone who believes in G-d is a moron.
I urge all of you to actually do what this website is supposed to be about. Weigh evidence but do it with an open mind.

If I were G-d I would be quite INSULTED that when you were trying to APPEASE the posters of the JREF you switched over to “disrespecting” me according to your previous standards and then when you got ANGRY with them you REVERTED back to “respecting” me according to your standard.

It seems to me that you are a VACILLATING APPEASER and a PETULANT person who really does not know where you stand.

Your respect and disrespect are meaningless even if there was a G-d/God…..he would find your attempts nothing more than a confused attempt at APPEASEMENT not respect.

Besides….where did you get the information that writing G-d is respectful to YHWH even if he was real…..did HE tell you that? Where did you ascertain that writing G-d is more respectful to YHWH and writing God is not?????? Moreover, if you are not sure he exists…..don’t you think your DOUBTING his existence is of much more immediate DISRESPECT than how you write a word in English that has nothing to do with his name??????

Can you see how laughable you are?

 

[Nicole Friedman]

So how is G-d/God to know when you are being respectful and not being respectful……

In the following posts you were being DISRESPECTFUL?????







But in this one you are being respectful?????






If I were G-d I would be quite INSULTED that when you were trying to APPEASE the posters of the JREF you switched over to “disrespecting” me according to your previous standards and then when you got ANGRY with them you REVERTED back to “respecting” me according to your standard.

It seems to me that you are a VACILLATING APPEASER and a PETULANT person who really does not know where you stand.

Your respect and disrespect are meaningless even if there was a G-d/God…..he would find your attempts nothing more than a confused attempt at APPEASEMENT not respect.

Besides….where did you get the information that writing G-d is respectful to YHWH even if he was real…..did HE tell you that? Where did you ascertain that writing G-d is more respectful to YHWH and writing God is not?????? Moreover, if you are not sure he exists…..don’t you think your DOUBTING his existence is of much more immediate DISRESPECT than how you write a word in English that has nothing to do with his name??????

Can you see how laughable you are?

No, I do not believe that doubting G-d's existence is more disrespectful than spelling out the word. Why? Because if there is anything out there, I am positive that it would be good- and would want people to think for themselves. Even my rabbi who knows I am agnostic has told me that doubting is perfectly normal; it's unusual not to doubt. If you do not have any cultural affiliation with a religious group, I realize it can be a difficult concept to understand the use of G-d. However, to become so obviously angry about it simply makes absolutely no sense. "Can you see how laughable you are?" No, but I can see how angry and bitter you are.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

If I thought for a moment that one of your gods actually existed, I'd pledge myself to interfer in its 'work' to best of my abilities and to work with others to effect its destruction.

You people believe in some truly monsterous 'gods'.

Much of the suffering on this planet has been the result of these nasty delusions.

Is "you people" referring to me? Because the G-d that I hope exists is one of good, not evil. Do people commit atrocities in the name of a higher power? Unfortunately yes. However the same can be true for money, land and power over other people. Atrocities happen for numerous reasons. You conveniently leave out the millions of people alive today who are good, caring people who happen to also believe in a higher power. Are you going to tell me that these people are evil? If you don't believe in G-d, more power to you- but to say that people who do believe in something are really believing in monsters is downright insulting.

 

[slingblade]

No, I do not believe that doubting G-d's existence is more disrespectful than spelling out the word. Why? Because if there is anything out there, I am positive that it would be good- and would want people to think for themselves. Even my rabbi who knows I am agnostic has told me that doubting is perfectly normal; it's unusual not to doubt. If you do not have any cultural affiliation with a religious group, I realize it can be a difficult concept to understand the use of G-d. However, to become so obviously angry about it simply makes absolutely no sense. "Can you see how laughable you are?" No, but I can see how angry and bitter you are.

It always comes down to how bitter and angry we must all be.
Not that you're engaging in illogical and wishful thinking, but that we're big ol' Grinches. Ho-hum.

How do I know you're illogical? From the fact that you have no idea if there even is "anything out there," and yet you're "positive that it would be good," and that "it would want people to think for themselves."

You can't even say for sure it exists, but you're positive of its attributes?

Surely you can see how illogical that is?

Oh, by the way, I had "cultural affiliation" with a fundamentalist religion for over 30 years, and not one of them ever instructed me to spell the word god incompletely, for any reason. It seems to be a specifically Jewish thing to do, more power to them. It also is patently ridiculous. But you just go on with your not-bitter, not-angry self.

 

[The Norseman]

last I've checked, G-d has not been proven or disproven.

For the very rare occasions when the concept of a god has been adequately defined, it has been decisively disproven. The vast majority of the time, arguments rage back and forth based on incoherent and/or vague concepts which never get resolved.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

As long as they respect your views and don't really oppose them.

Respect is earned, it isn't a Divine Right.

I have to disagree. If I meet a stranger for the first time I automatically am respectful; this person does not have to earn my respect first. However, respect can obviously be lost if they are disrespectful to me. If you've read many of the comments directed towards me on this thread you would understand what I'm referring to. I started this thread after having read other threads on religion; I obviously realized that the majority of people on this site are avowed atheists and would disagree with me. To expect otherwise would be silly. However, many of the comments directed my way have been simply mean spirited and insulting. If these posters are trying to persuade me, they're not doing a very good job.

 

[Complexity]

Is "you people" referring to me? Because the G-d that I hope exists is one of good, not evil. Do people commit atrocities in the name of a higher power? Unfortunately yes. However the same can be true for money, land and power over other people. Atrocities happen for numerous reasons. You conveniently leave out the millions of people alive today who are good, caring people who happen to also believe in a higher power. Are you going to tell me that these people are evil? If you don't believe in G-d, more power to you- but to say that people who do believe in something are really believing in monsters is downright insulting.

'you people' refers to any religious types.

I'm afraid these gods of yours are monsters.

There are many good-natured people who are deluded and bereft of reason and who do themselves and others a serious injury.

If by 'insulting', you mean saying something that you find unpleasant, excellent. It would be wrong for me to make you comfortable in your complacent ignorance.

Stop spreading this garbage around.

Shed your superstitions.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

It always comes down to how bitter and angry we must all be.
Not that you're engaging in illogical and wishful thinking, but that we're big ol' Grinches. Ho-hum.

How do I know you're illogical? From the fact that you have no idea if there even is "anything out there," and yet you're "positive that it would be good," and that "it would want people to think for themselves."

You can't even say for sure it exists, but you're positive of its attributes?

Surely you can see how illogical that is?

Oh, by the way, I had "cultural affiliation" with a fundamentalist religion for over 30 years, and not one of them ever instructed me to spell the word god incompletely, for any reason. It seems to be a specifically Jewish thing to do, more power to them. It also is patently ridiculous. But you just go on with your not-bitter, not-angry self.

"It is patently ridiculous". No, you're not mean bitter or angry. My mistake.
As for your point about logic, no it absolutely does not seem ridiculous to me in the slightest. Why would anything in the universe be "evil"? I may not be sure if G-d exists but I am 110% sure there is no devil or hell.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

'you people' refers to any religious types.

I'm afraid these gods of yours are monsters.

There are many good-natured people who are deluded and bereft of reason and who do themselves and others a serious injury.

If by 'insulting', you mean saying something that you find unpleasant, excellent. It would be wrong for me to make you comfortable in your complacent ignorance.

Stop spreading this garbage around.

Shed your superstitions.

You're the one who is "spewing garbage". Go ahead and feel smug in your superiority knowing the truth about the way the world works. Oh wait. You weren't around for what caused the big bang, were you? And I'm not hoping that there are "Gods", I'm hoping that there is a G-d. Hoping is the farthest thing from delusional.

 

[Complexity]

I have to disagree. If I meet a stranger for the first time I automatically am respectful; this person does not have to earn my respect first. However, respect can obviously be lost if they are disrespectful to me. If you've read many of the comments directed towards me on this thread you would understand what I'm referring to. I started this thread after having read other threads on religion; I obviously realized that the majority of people on this site are avowed atheists and would disagree with me. To expect otherwise would be silly. However, many of the comments directed my way have been simply mean spirited and insulting. If these posters are trying to persuade me, they're not doing a very good job.

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

You started this thread with ridiculous respect for an imaginary horrid creature. You lost any claim to respect with that action.

I have no respect for your religious beliefs. I don't know you enough to disrespect you per se, but there appear to be several causes for concern.

To come into my living room and start leaking godstuff on my carpet, deeply annoying my cats and distracting me from Poirot, is very uncouth.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

"It is patently ridiculous". No, you're not mean bitter or angry. My mistake.
As for your point about logic, no it absolutely does not seem ridiculous to me in the slightest. Why would anything in the universe be "evil"? I may not be sure if G-d exists but I am 110% sure there is no devil or hell.

Well, I'm certainly glad you're not as smug and arrogant as the rest of the people here who are sure they know everything about how the world works. That's a relief.

 

[the PC apeman]

"It is patently ridiculous". No, you're not mean bitter or angry. My mistake.
As for your point about logic, no it absolutely does not seem ridiculous to me in the slightest. Why would anything in the universe be "evil"? I may not be sure if G-d exists but I am 110% sure there is no devil or hell.

Why would anything in the Universe be "good"?

 

[Nicole Friedman]

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

You started this thread with ridiculous respect for an imaginary horrid creature. You lost any claim to respect with that action.

I have no respect for your religious beliefs. I don't know you enough to disrespect you per se, but there appear to be several causes for concern.

To come into my living room and start leaking godstuff on my carpet, deeply annoying my cats and distracting me from Poirot, is very uncouth.

I'm sorry but I didn't realize that a skeptics forum, a place where you're supposed to be open-minded is closed off to any opinions but your own. I apologize for disturbing your cat.

 

[Nicole Friedman]

Why would anything in the Universe be "good"?

Doing good things for other people generally makes people happy. Is this simply biological or is there more to this? I've brought up love before. Others have dismissed love as purely biological and perhaps it is... but if you've ever truly loved someone I'm sure that you've at least wondered if there is more to it. Is the universe good? I don't know. Is it benign? Perhaps as well. But I would be shocked if the universe was "evil".

 

[Antiquehunter]

Speaking only for myself, I'm open minded, but not so open that my brain may fall out. You asked firstly, if you thought the forum was welcoming of agnostics. The answer to that question is absolutely yes. Indeed, this forum is welcome to 'believers', as well.

What I am intolerant of, is people who claim to be one thing yet are another. I am completely unconvinced that you are indeed an agnostic - at least an agnostic as I understand the term.

I don't understand why you want to lay claim to this term. You clearly are passionate about many aspects of your Jewish culture, so just call yourself Jewish. Maybe your belief system isn't 'typical' of any particular type of Judaism, but you clearly are not agnostic.

- If you truly didn't know whether or not god existed, you wouldn't care whether or not you typed his name.
- Your defense of circumcision wouldn't be founded in religion.

No need for all the animosity and vitriol - I welcome anyone who is genuine.

 

[the PC apeman]

Doing good things for other people generally makes people happy. Is this simply biological or is there more to this? I've brought up love before. Others have dismissed love as purely biological and perhaps it is... but if you've ever truly loved someone I'm sure that you've at least wondered if there is more to it. Is the universe good? I don't know. Is it benign? Perhaps as well. But I would be shocked if the universe was "evil".

So it's just a feeling about how things work then?

 

[Nicole Friedman]

Speaking only for myself, I'm open minded, but not so open that my brain may fall out. You asked firstly, if you thought the forum was welcoming of agnostics. The answer to that question is absolutely yes. Indeed, this forum is welcome to 'believers', as well.

What I am intolerant of, is people who claim to be one thing yet are another. I am completely unconvinced that you are indeed an agnostic - at least an agnostic as I understand the term.

I don't understand why you want to lay claim to this term. You clearly are passionate about many aspects of your Jewish culture, so just call yourself Jewish. Maybe your belief system isn't 'typical' of any particular type of Judaism, but you clearly are not agnostic.

- If you truly didn't know whether or not god existed, you wouldn't care whether or not you typed his name.
- Your defense of circumcision wouldn't be founded in religion.

No need for all the animosity and vitriol - I welcome anyone who is genuine.

I understand your feelings on this but I can't explain it anymore than I already have. I absolutely am agnostic as I do not 100% believe in G-d, but I am leaning more towards believing than not believing, and I do feel a strong cultural and emotional tie to my Jewish heritage. I appreciate your welcome:}

 

[abaddon]

Doing good things for other people generally makes people happy. Is this simply biological or is there more to this? I've brought up love before. Others have dismissed love as purely biological and perhaps it is... but if you've ever truly loved someone I'm sure that you've at least wondered if there is more to it. Is the universe good? I don't know. Is it benign? Perhaps as well. But I would be shocked if the universe was "evil".

You miss the point. The universe is neither good, nor evil.

The universe simply doesn't care.

 

[slingblade]

"It is patently ridiculous". No, you're not mean bitter or angry. My mistake.

Somehow I doubt your sincerity.

It's my opinion that leaving the O out of the word god is a ridiculous thing to do. Please explain how my holding that opinion shows you I must be bitter and angry?

As for your point about logic, no it absolutely does not seem ridiculous to me in the slightest.

You don't know if there's a god, but you know that if there is one, it must be good.

You can't know a thing's attributes if you can't even establish the thing exists.

Are you familiar with the term "wishful thinking?"

Why would anything in the universe be "evil"?

Are there any people in the universe? Are any of them evil? So why would anything in the universe be evil? Everyone in the universe is good. And binary opposites tell us so very much.

Why would it be evil? Why would it be good? Why would it be passive-aggressive or schizoid or happy or sad, and how do you presume to be sure of its goodness or any other attribute, when you don't even know if it's real?

I may not be sure if G-d exists but I am 110% sure there is no devil or hell.

Oh? How do you know this with ten percent more than full certainty?