The debt hoax ...

[Saggy]

The world is being turned upside down by the debt hoax ... here's a summary, every nation is burdened by unsupportable debt, the US, Britain, all the European countries, with the possible exception of Germany, etc., etc. As a result economies are collapsing and with the collapse of the paper financial economy the real economy of goods and services is also contracting.

So, what is the hoax? The hoax is that debt is a burden only to the debtor, on the other hand it is money in the bank to the debtee. Every nation is in debt, every individual is in debt, but, somehow there is no one who benefits from this debt, no one to whom it is owed. At least, that is what one must assume from reading the reports.

The solution to the debt problem is to recognize the hoax, and then identify the debtees, and then give them, in financial terms, a haircut. Just erase the debt so that the real economy of goods and services can return to normal.

Think of it as bankruptcy in mirror image. This time the debtees have to give up their claims on the eternal output of the output of nations. Even after a massive 90% haircut they will still be on top of the heap, their relative positions in society unchanged, and their lifestyles unaffected.

 

[twinstead]

SNIP...At least, that is what one must assume from reading the reports...SNIP

It's what YOU must assume from reading the reports.

 

[Hans]

somehow there is no one who benefits from this debt

Except the governments, corporations, businesses and people who own this debt - ever hear of a bond fund?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Except the governments, corporations, businesses and people who own this debt - ever hear of a bond fund?

Hedge funds, futures investors, banks, an all kinds of other people. A LOT of folks make a LOT money from debts.

 

[Dinwar]

The solution to the debt problem is to recognize the hoax, and then identify the debtees, and then give them, in financial terms, a haircut. Just erase the debt so that the real economy of goods and services can return to normal.

Ah, the Tyler Durden school of economics.

I would suggest you watch the movie again, and pay attention to what Tyler is.

very nation is in debt, every individual is in debt, but, somehow there is no one who benefits from this debt, no one to whom it is owed. At least, that is what one must assume from reading the reports.

Actually, no. My debt is owed to my credit card company. When my mother refinanced her house, her debt was owned by the bank she refinanced through (well, actually it was sold by that bank to another party--at one point the California Teachers Union, who owns a surprising number of mortgages). When a business or government issues bonds, they owe money to those investors. That's why the bonds have a period of time before they mature: it allows the companies or governments to use that money for an extended period of time, and in exchange for the loss of liquidity they provide slightly higher interest rates than, say, your average savings account. We know that China owns a great deal of the USA's national debt.

I'd say this is your misinterpretation, not an actual fact of reality.

 

[geni]

So, what is the hoax? The hoax is that debt is a burden only to the debtor, on the other hand it is money in the bank to the debtee. Every nation is in debt, every individual is in debt,

I'm not. In fact at least some of my money has been lent to other people and I'd rather like to get at least some of it back.

 

[ComfySlippers]

...At least, that is what one must assume from reading the reports.

These reports of which you speak, prey tell where can one see them?

.... Or do you just mean "Listening to Alex Jones and attending the University of YouTube" ?

 

[Saggy]

Think of it in simplest and starkest terms, we are watching the collapse of real economies of goods and services and the impoverishment of the great masses of people because some people, most of whom have never contributed any real thing to the non-paper economy, are owed too much money. For the ruling class, the debtees, this is just great. However, it doesn't make sense for the impoverished to buy into this idiocy.

 

[Chaos]

Think of it in simplest and starkest terms, we are watching the collapse of real economies of goods and services and the impoverishment of the great masses of people because some people, most of whom have never contributed any real thing to the non-paper economy, are owed too much money. For the ruling class, the debtees, this is just great. However, it doesn't make sense for the impoverished to buy into this idiocy.

We´ve been "watching the collapse of real economies of goods and services" ever since Ugh the Caveman introduced his "Buy a club now, pay two bearskins tomorrow" scheme in 125,000 BC. It´s about time you changed the record you´re playing.

 

[Dinwar]

Think of it in simplest and starkest terms, we are watching the collapse of real economies of goods and services and the impoverishment of the great masses of people because some people, most of whom have never contributed any real thing to the non-paper economy, are owed too much money. For the ruling class, the debtees, this is just great. However, it doesn't make sense for the impoverished to buy into this idiocy.

This is a completely different concept than your first post, which argued that no one was loaning money, just owing money.

While the idea to not spend more than you earn is sound, the rest of it appears to be fairly nutty to me. Why should I believe you? What you mean "...most of whom have never contributed any real thing to the non-paper economy"? How much money is too much, and who gets to decide? Who are the impoverished? What is a real economy and what are hte alternatives?

 

[timhau]

How much money is too much, and who gets to decide? Who are the impoverished?

I know! I know! The answers are: the Jews, the Jews again, and then the honest, hard-working, handsome Aryans.

What do I win?

 

[cwalner]

Hedge funds, futures investors, banks, an all kinds of other people. A LOT of folks make a LOT money from debts.

That's close to what Saggy was getting at. Since who controls those hedge funds and banks and who are the futures investors and all kinds of other people.

timnau, having experience with Saggy, knows the answer he is getting at.

I know! I know! The answers are: the Jews, the Jews again, What do I win?

 

[deeper]

We know that China owns a great deal of the USA's national debt.

They sure do, here is an article from The Guardian newspaper.

US debt: how big is it and who owns it?

ETA: Are you really suggesting that the U.S. not pay back it's debt, China snd those other countries won't mind, because as you say,

there is no one who benefits from this debt, no one to whom it is owed. At least, that is what one must assume from reading the reports.

Yeah... as has been stated, you're going to have to show us those reports.

 

[Sledge]

What if the people who owe money gave back what they'd bought with that money? Hmm, I guess the problem is that the things they've bought might not be worth what they paid for them now. Ok, they keep what they've bought, but they pay the money back. That's fair, right? And I guess they should pay back some extra, because the people who lent that money could have been using it themselves in that time.

Saggy, I think we've cracked it! We cancel all debt, and instead people just pay back what they owe and some extra to compensate the lender for lending the money. I think this new system will work.

 

[Saggy]

ETA: Are you really suggesting that the U.S. not pay back it's debt, China snd those other countries won't mind, because as you say,

You're misreading my OP. Of course the debt is owed to someone, probably for the most part to the banks, hedge funds, other financial manipulators. However to read the media there is only one side of the equation, the debtors side, and all the nations are up to their ears in debt. The creditors side, the fat cats sitting on IOU's for the output of nations for the future near and far, is never exposed. It is if they didn't exist, and that 'we're all in this together'. That's the hoax.

The scheme is simplicity itself, the banks print the money and loan it, and the rest of humanity is on the hook to pay them back. The persons owed the money have never contributed anything material to society.

 

[twinstead]

You're misreading my OP. Of course the debt is owed to someone, probably for the most part to the banks, hedge funds, other financial manipulators. However to read the media there is only one side of the equation, the debtors side, and all the nations are up to their ears in debt. The creditors side, the fat cats sitting on IOU's for the output of nations for the future near and far, is never exposed. It is if they didn't exist, and that 'we're all in this together'. That's the hoax.

The scheme is simplicity itself, the banks print the money and loan it, and the rest of humanity is on the hook to pay them back. The persons owed the money have never contributed anything material to society.

Do you think those banks just stuff that money they get from loans under their mattresses?

 

[Dinwar]

You're misreading my OP. Of course the debt is owed to someone, probably for the most part to the banks, hedge funds, other financial manipulators.

It always bothers me when people use such emotionally charged words in their descriptions of people.

However to read the media there is only one side of the equation, the debtors side, and all the nations are up to their ears in debt.

The rational conclusion to be drawn from this information is that the media isn't accurately representing the facts.

The creditors side, the fat cats sitting on IOU's for the output of nations for the future near and far, is never exposed. It is if they didn't exist, and that 'we're all in this together'. That's the hoax.

Again, this is a pretty emotionally charged statement. And it's flagrantly false--CEOs of all kinds are constantly being attacked for how much they get paid, and banks in particular are a target these days.

The scheme is simplicity itself, the banks print the money and loan it, and the rest of humanity is on the hook to pay them back. The persons owed the money have never contributed anything material to society.

Ah. You're one of those "the only real work is manual labor" kinds. Which merely indicates your lack of familiarity with the fiscal world. My mother is a bean-counter, and I can tell you that investment is no mean trick.

As for what the bankers and others do? That's simple: They make money readily available for others to use. They INVEST. Loans aren't just beneficial to the banks--a rational loan, made for good reasons, helps the person who took out the loan as well. For example, my parents took out a loan to build a 2-car garage a while back. Over the years, the garage has more than paid for itself--it's the only reason I have fingers, for exmaple, and has helped us in countless ways. It's not a financial benefit, but it makes life much, much easier. The loan was paid back (a bit early; as I said, Mom is a bean-counter), and everyone walked away thinking they got the best out of the deal.

The whole trick is to make rational investments. Only take out what you can pay back in a reasonable amont of time. If you do, yeah, the bank's CEO will still get rich--but you'll also improve your own life.

Or, never take out a loan. If you never use credit, you'll never owe anyone anything, and you escape from what you consider a horrible system!

 

[Anders Lindman]

Fractional reserve banking creates an exponentially growing debt that can never be repaid. As an example, out of $1 in assets the bank can lend out $10. This means $9 created out of thin air. To pay the interest for the loan new money has to be created and when using the same fractional reserve banking principle the cycle is repeated.

 

[twinstead]

Fractional reserve banking creates an exponentially growing debt that can never be repaid. As an example, out of $1 in assets the bank can lend out $10. This means $9 created out of thin air. To pay the interest for the loan new money has to be created and when using the same fractional reserve banking principle the cycle is repeated.

You say that as if it's a hard-cold fact that nobody can dispute

 

[Anders Lindman]

You say that as if it's a hard-cold fact that nobody can dispute

It is a fact when looking at the whole fractional banking system as a whole. Individual debts can of course be repaid, but the total debt created by fractional reserve banking can never be repaid.