Vaccines: how do I talk to my anti-vac wife about it?

[tsig]

To differentiate between the phrase "natural hygiene" and the scientific system of "Natural Hygiene." Too many people seem to be unaware that the word hygiene has more than one meaning and is not just about washing yourself regularly.

Is this it?

Hygiene represents a return to that pristine mode of living that emerged with man when he first appeared on the earth; it is a revival of something precious that had been all but lost during the course of ages, thanks to the corrupting and perverting influences of shaman, priest, physician and trader. These, with their false systems and false teachings, have led the race astray. When and where ignorance and superstition have prevailed with all their mind-beclouding and debasing influences, there disease and crime abound".
H. Shelton, 1968.

 

[tsig]

10%.
I'm looking forward to reading the response to this question because it's about information the OP could possibly cite to his wife.
I have a number of anti-vacc, anti medicine colleagues and this discussion is interesting for the amount of information being posted..

Have you looked at this blog, there's a lot of info there.


http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

 

[laca]

And I recommend to her to read about the people who lost their lives or health immediately or shortly after taking the vaccine. Nothing like life-long protection, hey!

Why stop there? Why not read about people who died immediately or shortly after:

• sex
• a meal
• putting on their shoes
• jogging
• driving
• yawning
• blinking
• reading one of your mind-boggingly stupid posts
• ...

See, I'm willing to bet fair amounts of money that I can come up with at least an order of magnitude more examples of most of the above than you could with vaccination. Oh, and I'm not claiming that those deaths were necessarily caused by what happened just before. That would be stupid.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

• taking a natural remedy...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
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How Many Scientists Fabricate and Falsify Research?.....

Less than 2%. How many scientists have personal knowledge of someone else? 15% but that could easily be multiple scientists who know about a single same fabricator. In addition the meta analysis is not confined to medical research. Some areas of science could be responsible for more or less fraudulent skewing of their data.

In medicine we look for repeatable results done by different researchers. That pretty much rules out the single cheating scientist concern.

 

[pakeha]

I wouldn't hold my breath. I asked essentially the same question using the Hib vaccine as an example. It was licensed in 1988, and went into use in the 90s. By 1993 cases of Hib-related illnesses virtually disappeared. There is no way to explain this other than the vaccine.

I quite agree and I'm not holding my breath. These threads are invaluable for the courtesy, patience and generosity of those forum posters who share so much here.

Have you looked at this blog, there's a lot of info there.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

A case in point. Thanks for the link- it's a goldmine!

 

[Chris Haynes]

I quite agree and I'm not holding my breath. These threads are invaluable for the courtesy, patience and generosity of those forum posters who share so much here.


A case in point. Thanks for the link- it's a goldmine!

You should also enjoy this one:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

One of the more recent entries, Random Flu Thoughts by Dr. Crislip (an infectious disease doctor), had this pithy observation:

There are two broad themes as to why people refuse the vaccine. One is straight from Bizarro World: there is a cabal of government, pharma, and doctors whose sole purpose in giving the vaccine is to line the pockets of big pharma and keep people ill. This is a delusional state so at odds with the reality to which I am accustomed, and evidently so common, I am surprised there is no DSM entry for the disorder and there are no clinical descriptions of the phenomena.

He also has podcasts: A Gobbet 'o Pus and Quackcast (which is his ScienceBasedMedicine posts read with his wonderfully snarky style).

 

[trusetheeker]

I wouldn't hold my breath. I asked essentially the same question using the Hib vaccine as an example. It was licensed in 1988, and went into use in the 90s. By 1993 cases of Hib-related illnesses virtually disappeared. There is no way to explain this other than the vaccine.

You can see by his reply that he has no answer.

Oh, ye of little faith. May I call your attention to the article below which explores the interesting twist in the vaccination saga referred to as “serotype replacement” (or “replacement disease” in other circumstances.) It's no surprise that with the arrogance of the medical industry, they would ASSume that they know better than nature and the inherent intelligence of the human body. (Where else have we seen "experts" interfere with the delicate balance of an eco-system only to bring misery, disease and death to the inhabitants? Oh yes, the European invasion of the Americas!) It's more stupid than thinking a yoghurt will "fix" your gut flora imbalance and much more dangerous.

(http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/03/27/sisyphus-and-the-conjugate-vaccines-iii/) - The big question with these conjugate vaccines is “What is the overall effect?”

How many fewer cases of invasive bacterial disease are happening after replacement is accounted for?

The more narrowly you look, the better these conjugate vaccines look. The more broadly you look, the more the apparent effects melt away to nothing. With Hib and “replacement disease”, if you just compare h influenza serotype B to serotype A, it would appear that killing off Hib via mass vaccination was extremely successful in the grand scheme of things. When you look at nontypeable (also known as “non capsulated”) h influenzae plus Hia and Hif, that’s when you start seeing that we’re not really any better off now than we were before the Hib conjugate vaccine.

 

[Tomblvd]

Oh, ye of little faith. May I call your attention to the article below which explores the interesting twist in the vaccination saga referred to as “serotype replacement” (or “replacement disease” in other circumstances.) It's no surprise that with the arrogance of the medical industry, they would ASSume that they know better than nature and the inherent intelligence of the human body. (Where else have we seen "experts" interfere with the delicate balance of an eco-system only to bring misery, disease and death to the inhabitants? Oh yes, the European invasion of the Americas!) It's more stupid than thinking a yoghurt will "fix" your gut flora imbalance and much more dangerous.

You didn't answer the question. And since you admit the premise (Hib-related disease has virtually disappeared), are you now admitting the vaccine was effective?

 

[TheDaver]

The OP should get a divorce, ASAP. Living with a psychopath is not good for his health.

 

[sam6302]

ADD and autism asthma, ear infections are vaccine diseases.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Trusetheeker, InsideVaccines is notorious for cherry picking, and even removing portions of what they quote. As Deetee discovered a while ago.

As you can see from that discussion, MinorityView decided she did not like her methods questioned, and did a "Brave Sir Robin."

Now exactly what caused the 90% decline in measles morbidity between 1960 and 1970 in the USA? I have not seen you answer that rather simple question.

(I suggest that you do not confuse the word "morbidity" with "mortality")

 

[ehcks]

Is this it?

Hygiene represents a return to that pristine mode of living that emerged with man when he first appeared on the earth; it is a revival of something precious that had been all but lost during the course of ages, thanks to the corrupting and perverting influences of shaman, priest, physician and trader. These, with their false systems and false teachings, have led the race astray. When and where ignorance and superstition have prevailed with all their mind-beclouding and debasing influences, there disease and crime abound".
H. Shelton, 1968.

So by "Hygiene" he means a complete lack of hygiene?

 

[Stomatopoda]

Why not? It's the same as Truth vs truth and God vs god(s).

 

[trusetheeker]

You didn't answer the question. And since you admit the premise (Hib-related disease has virtually disappeared), are you now admitting the vaccine was effective?

Tomblvd, There's no denying that vaccines have an effect. The questions are 1) is it a beneficial effect and 2) is it worth the suffering and death caused by the vaccine?

 

[trusetheeker]

So by "Hygiene" he means a complete lack of hygiene?

And by "skeptic" you mean writing off things you know nothing about without any real investigation. You might accuse me of the same thing but the difference is that I don't write off what I don't know about - instead I dig deeper.

 

[tsig]

And by "skeptic" you mean writing off things you know nothing about without any real investigation. You might accuse me of the same thing but the difference is that I don't write off what I don't know about - instead I dig deeper.

So did I till I found I was digging up a privy.

 

[laca]

Tomblvd, There's no denying that vaccines have an effect. The questions are 1) is it a beneficial effect and 2) is it worth the suffering and death caused by the vaccine?

The answer is a resounding YES to both questions. Are we just about done here?

 

[laca]

And by "skeptic" you mean writing off things you know nothing about without any real investigation. You might accuse me of the same thing but the difference is that I don't write off what I don't know about - instead I dig deeper.

Hilarious. The only thing you're digging is a hole for yourself. Stop it.

 

[trusetheeker]

Trusetheeker, InsideVaccines is notorious for cherry picking, and even removing portions of what they quote. As Deetee discovered a while ago.

thanks, Chris. As far as possible, I check the references for accuracy and context.
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As you can see from that discussion, MinorityView decided she did not like her methods questioned, and did a "Brave Sir Robin."

By reading back a few posts, I could see that Deetee was very good at criticizing MinorityView and her group's website for the very same biased methods that I see daily on JREF. He even goes on to say that he doesn't have time to engage in discussion on InsideVaccines although he has plenty of time to castigate the website on JREF. Perhaps he just prefers a less-hostile forum.

I fully agree with MVs departure. Your "chicken" taunt proves that any attempt at real discussion on this "playground" of yours is for the most part wasted time (as I well know!). Considering that she made it clear that you can follow and engage as much as you wish on the other forum, it's sounds more like you're afraid to engage with her outside the safety of your gang.
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Now exactly what caused the 90% decline in measles morbidity between 1960 and 1970 in the USA? I have not seen you answer that rather simple question.

(I suggest that you do not confuse the word "morbidity" with "mortality")

Somehow, I got the impression in your first reply to me that you were an adult with reasonable intelligence. My opinion is declining with almost every subsequent post. I take it that by "simple," you mean your assumption that because no other explanation has been put forward that the stats "prove" the effectiveness of the vaccine and/or the vaccination program. I would agree that meets the definition of "simple" as in simple-minded.

I am interested in understanding the facts behind the graph and will reply when I've finished researching the situation.
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Not that I share Deetee's view on the vaccine itself but I just love his rant about the medical industry in the UK (which of course is nothing like the medical industry anywhere else in the world, is it?)

As a junior doctor I saw lots of HiB meningitis. Nothing now. It was nasty stuff.

If someone wants to expose a vaccine scandal/conspiracy, then they could do worse than look into the reasons behind the delay in introducing infant HiB vaccination in the UK. There was a perfectly good vaccine available, being widely used in Europe and Scandinavia. It reduced HiB deaths to almost zero in those countries.

Did the UK introduce it?
No.
The Dept of Health delayed for a couple of years in order to get their own vaccine production on-line and to run their own tests (like they were going to show anything different?)

In that time, dozens of kids died from HiB.
Bloody disgraceful.

Imagine accusing doctors, pharma and their political leaders of working contrary to the best interest of the public!!!