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Merged Has this structural engineer been debunked? / Astaneh-Asl "melting of girders"

Ok but he saw "melting of girders" did he not? These were his own words.

Did you miss my post or what?

https://www.google.com/search?pz=1&...=799&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&cad=b

It is PERFECTLY NORMAL for people to report seeing melting girders and melting steel in fires. 911 is not special in any way in this regard.

It should be noted Dr. Astaneh also agrees with the truth movement that the "crimes scene evidence" steel should not have been removed and recycled and should have been examined and investigated.

He thinks if more were kept for longer they would have had more to work with, what Dr. Astaneh-Asl actually thinks is very different to what you are claiming he thinks. Truthers claim no one had a chance to inspect the steel, Dr. Astaneh-Asl was one of the of the people who inspected the steel! You cant use someone like Dr. Astaneh-Asl to support you.
 
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It should be noted Dr. Astaneh also agrees with the truth movement that the "crimes scene evidence" steel should not have been removed and recycled and should have been examined and investigated.

Do you disagree with Dr. Astaneh on this point?

I quoted Dr. Astaneh-Asl's very clear conclusions above.

What part of this sentence is too difficult for you to understand?

Astaneh-Asl said:
"Let me state again that after 6 years of studying the collapse of World Trade Center, I have not found any evidence to support any of the claims of "conspiracy theorists"."
____

What part of this sentence makes you think that he agrees with the Truthers about any significant point?

Astaneh-Asl said:
"These people [truthers] have used my name and research results in totally incorrect way , and in completely opposite way of what the research results had indicated.

By doing so, you and all others [truthers] have implied that our research somehow support your totally incorrect theories."

Or this one:

Astaneh-Asl said:
“When the fires started, they heated up the steel. In my opinion, the truss joists collapsed first, leaving the exterior columns of probably two floors in the impact area with no bracing but still under gravity load from the floors above. As the columns heated up and reached temperatures of nearly 1,000F, their strength was reduced to less than half the design strength and they started to buckle. When the columns buckled, the top portion of the building, losing its supports, was pulled down by gravity and dropping on the floors below, pancaking the floors one after another and leading to progressive collapse in an almost perfect vertical direction of the pull of gravity force.”

The above statements, which he has made repeatedly & publicly, prove that your assertion that Dr. Astaneh-Asl thinks that the collapse has not been "examined and analyzed" is ludicrous. No expert makes such statements prior to examination & analysis.

PLEASE NOTE CAREFULLY that, in all the above, I am referring to "what Dr. Astaneh-Asl believes."
Not "what YOU believe."
Not "what you want Dr. Astaneh-Asl to believe."
___

Now, a little caveat about agenda-driven snippet harvesting:

Astaneh-Asl said:
Despite the fact that 40 percent of the steel beam was torn away, the column did not collapse, an example of redundancy built into the 1970s-vintage structure. "The impact [of the airplanes at WTC towers] did nothing to this building," he said with admiration.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/10/05/inv.attacks.steel/index.html

Do you really think that Dr. Astaneh-Asl, a world famous structural engineer, really believes that the impacts literally "did nothing" to the towers?

Do you see any potential for misinterpretation by someone who blindly accepts every snippet that some agenda-driven clown excises from its context?

If you are so vapidly credulous that you think that every out-of-context sentence that appears in a media report is strictly, literally, unwaveringly true, then you have larger epistemological problems than we can remedy here.
 
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Do you really think that Dr. Astaneh-Asl, a world famous structural engineer, really believes that the impacts literally "did nothing" to the towers?

Do you see any potential for misinterpretation by someone who blindly accepts every snippet that some agenda-driven clown excises from its context?

If you are so vapidly credulous that you think that every out-of-context sentence that appears in a media report is strictly, literally, unwaveringly true, then you have larger epistemological problems than we can remedy here.

Look, if 911 Blogger says he supports truthers then he supports truthers. DUH. ;)
 
CACB,

@tfk

But, as the clip illustrated, he clearly feels the WTC steel was "crime scene evidence" and should have been further investigated and examined and not shipped off and recycled. Did he not?

In the clip, he clearly states he saw the "melting of girders". Last I heard, girders are made of steel.

I don't know how honest or agenda-driven (aka "dishonest") you may be. You are apparently new here.

If you are earnest, I'll try to help you understand some of the engineering issues. If you have real questions, and are looking for real answers, I encourage you to continue.

If you are firmly ensconced within a Fortress of Ignorance, and no words that I or anyone else could say will sway any aspect of your conclusions, please say so now, and don't waste my time.

If you turn out to be determinedly, block-headedly uneducable, then I'll choose to ignore you.

No steel melted.

There was some steel, not much, a small amount, that had eroded away significantly. This clearly happened in the heat & chemical soup of the debris pile, and therefore had nothing to do with the collapse. Precisely because it happened well AFTER the collapse.

Even in these pieces (studied in detail by Barnett, Beiderman & Sisson at WPI, and reported on in detail by both FEMA & NIST), no steel melted.

No steel vaporized.

A36 (used predominantly in the towers) is a mild, low carbon steel which melts at ~1400°C. It is highly probable that the fires never got that hot.

BB&S found that the steel had undergone a high temperature chemical attack, not unlike road salt attacks the steel in your car. Only the reaction happened much, much faster because, like all these reactions, the speed up enormously at high temperatures.

The steel converted from nearly pure iron (with a tiny amount of carbon) to an iron-sulfide and aniron-oxide alloys.

Now, both iron sulfide & iron oxide also have melting temperatures around 1400°C (IIRC). They also would not melt in the debris pile fires.

But when iron-sulfide & iron-oxide mix, the mixture's melting temp will drop to about 950°C. This was the infamous "eutectic mixture" that melted.

Do you get it yet?

Iron-sulfide is NOT steel.
Iron-oxide is NOT steel.
A 50/50 mixture of iron-oxide & iron-sulfide is NOT steel.

No steel melted. Even if someone looks at a steel beam and sees holes in it. And misinterprets it (or informally states it) as "the steel melted", that statement is still not true.

It is immediately obvious that no steel melted, because you can still see the shape of the I-beam, even in the thinned down section. When steel melts, it does what every other liquid does: it puddles & assumes the shape of the container. The very fact that you could still see the I-beam shape immediately tells you that the steel did not melt.

Furthermore, there is precisely zero doubt that the reports of "eutectic melting", thinned down steel I-beams has precisely zero possibility of being associated with any sort of "thermite" or explosive demolition.

People with agendas have lied to you. When will you call upon the brains that you were given to let you see this fact?


tk
 
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@tfk

But, as the clip illustrated, he clearly feels the WTC steel was "crime scene evidence" and should have been further investigated and examined and not shipped off and recycled. Did he not?



In the clip, he clearly states he saw the "melting of girders". Last I heard, girders are made of steel.

The steel was examined. Re-read Ryan Mackey's statement quoted by Grizzly Bear up above. The steel was examined by Worcester Polytechnic; the papers can be found under the researchers names: Barnett, Biederman, Sisson, and Sullivan. The "melting" turned out to be sulfidation corrosion.

This has been covered ad-nauseum in this forum before. Please look up old threads covering "sulfidation" and "eutectic".
 
I assumed he meant it should all have been examined in place.
 
Ok but he saw "melting of girders" did he not? These were his own words.

He saw eutectic melting, which is a bit different from thermal melting. The piece he is examining in the photo above shows this phenomenon. It should really be referred to as "rapid corrosion" since the steel is clearly not turned into a liquid.

Can you please explain to me the "much lower temperature processes consistent with ordinary burning" that were capable of "melting" "girders"? "Weakening" and "melting" are two different things are they not?

Heat and sulphuric acid can cause localized eutectic melting such as you see the professor examining above.

It should be noted Dr. Astaneh also agrees with the truth movement that the "crimes scene evidence" steel should not have been removed and recycled and should have been examined and investigated.

Some data could have been gained by keeping it around for extensive study later, but that would apply more to engineering problems with the design. There was no forensic evidence of any demolitions devices found.

And look at the background in the photo above. The professor was examing that piece of steel at the recovery site. He could not go onto the pile to do it, because he would have been in the way of removing steel for the search and rescue and recovery phases of the operation.

It is an iron-clad rule in fire investigations that FIRST you extinguish the fire and recover victims, and THEN look for trace evidence.
 
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As has been said, instead of dealing with the conclusions that he ultimately made, and the meaning of the further examination of the steel truthers just focus on a key word and automatically assumes it supports their contention... how unscientific and brain dead... Analytical thinking is worlds beyond petty, hyper-literal word sniping...
 
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Citation needed. I mean, a link to physical evidence of melted steel. A picture would suffice too with a source.

No, intergranular melting due to an eutectic reaction is not evidence of molten steel.

Sigh.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/cutter_charges_brought_down_wt.html

Mark Loizeaux of Controlled Demolition said:
"Yes, hot spots of molten steel in the basements,” ... “at the bottom of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven levels.”

MM
 
Sorry, that is not physical proof. You'll need to do better than that.

BTW, we've already proven that people cannot distinguish what a molten metal is by sight alone. It's virtually impossible, even to the trained eye.

Fail along now.......
 
Loizeaux? Seriously? What, after trying this and failing in 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010 (and hey! Look who that last link is in response to), truthers think this is supposed to fly in 2011?

This has been discussed multiple times in the past. Merely saying that Loizeaux saw molten steel doesn't make it true, especially in the face of him saying otherwise.


ETA: Whoops. Scratch that last, it wasn't about Loizeaux talking about molten steel. That's my mistake.
 
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Seriously? You're using a five year discredited fringe article as "evidence?":confused:

From your article:

"AFP observed thermite reactions in Jones’s physics class. As a colleague combined the powdered rust and aluminum in a mounted ceramic flowerpot, Jones filmed the reaction. A paper wick with magnesium ignited the sand-like mixture."

Thermite =

1) Powdered rust.

2) Aluminum.

Do you think those two components might be found in the rubble of a skyscraper?
 
Some quotes from him

-Astaneh-Asl says that steel flanges have been reduced “from an inch thick to paper thin.” [Berkeleyan, 10/3/2001]

- He finds a foot-long twisted shard of steel that is “like a piece of bread, but it was high-strength steel.” He comments, “I haven’t seen anything like this [before].” [Berkeley Daily Planet, 10/20/2001]

- “As a result, Astaneh has almost certainly missed seeing crucial pieces before they were cut up and sent overseas.”

- He says: “My wish was that we had spent whatever it takes, maybe $50 million, $100 million, and maybe two years, get all this steel, carry it to a lot. Instead of recycling it, put it horizontally, and assemble it. You have maybe 200 engineers, not just myself running around trying to figure out what’s going on. After all, this is a crime scene and you have to figure out exactly what happened for this crime, and learn from it.” However, he adds, “My wish is not what happens.” [CBS News, 3/12/2002]

- Astaneh-Asl previously told the New York Times that the scrap steel from the WTC was “worth only a few million dollars, a tiny fraction of the billions of dollars the cleanup will cost.” Yet the knowledge that could be gained from it “could save lives in a future disaster.” [New York Times, 10/2/2001]
 
CACB,



There are no oracles in my business.

He's a first rate structural engineer.

And what does he think about the truthers?

Here is his written response, found here, to Chris Bollyn, noted truther & anti-semite.



Tell me again, CACB, how this Structural Engineer supports the idiotic theories of the Truth Movement.

Please explain to me why you guys believe that quote-mining competent people, while attempting to hide their contempt for your idiotic conclusions, is a rational strategy for convincing anyone of anything.



He did not see melted steel. He saw some corroded steel.
He has said that he saw melted steel. He was wrong. Or, more likely, quoted out of context.



Here is an excerpt from his paper entitled "World Trade Center Post-Disaster Reconnaisance and Perishable Structural Engineering Data Collection"




Yeah, sure. No steel was inspected...


tk

Lol yes he said, do you know the girders were made from steel. Ohh i hope i do not shock you.
 

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