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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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This sounds like someone has given her pen and paper and is suggesting to her that she should write a statement. Spontaneously, of course . . . and then you can talk to a lawyer.

What a joke.

Very good catch! This whole time she is being sequestered and deliberately denied a lawyer ( I recall reading one of Raffaele's lawyers literally tried to break down a door to get to him) while being fed paper and pens, perhaps so they can get even more out of her 'spontaneously.'

Ever seen what it is said was 'given' to them by Amanda with her 'gift' note of the 6th? You'll have to log in to your 'other' account, unless you were mercilessly expunged, but you can see it here.

I've wondered if Amanda ever meant to 'give' this to them at all, or if it was actually seized so they could try to find something 'guilty' about it.
 
bad things happen to good people

I agree as well. Talking in absolute terms is what turned me off about Steve Moore's early articles. I ran into the same mindset in the Duke case. Many claimed it was impossible that these Lacrosse players could do such a thing as what they were accused of. It was the evidence that showed them to be innocent, not the unusual nature of the crime.

There is a difference between it being extremely unlikely and impossible.
RoseMontague,

I will have to reread Steve Moore's early articles. But in general I think that these arguments were not meant to be taken in absolute terms, only as probability arguments. Paraphrasing Sharon Swanson (who covered the DL case), good people do awful things, but bad things also happen to good people. I would add that the latter strikes me as more probable than the former. With respect to character, Amanda Knox and Reade Seligmann (one of the three Duke lacrosse players who were indicted for rape, etc.) strike me as, if anything, especially unlikely to commit a heinous crime. And that comment should not be taken as a disparagement of Raffaele Sollecito, Collin Finnerty, or David Evans. MOO.
ETA
In both cases there was a rush to judgment, with a substantial number of people believing that the accused were guilty. That is why the arguments about the likelihood of the accused being guilty were warranted. Obviously, those arguments might have been overstated, regardless of whether or not the basic idea were sound.
 
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Power of motive, or lack thereof

Doug I must respectfully disagree. I never agreed with it when the FOA pushed it from the beginning or when anybody said it for the last four years.

Although I have been leaning towards innocence most of those four years, sometimes more sometimes less, the idea that it couldn't happen because the dynamics of the murder weren't fully understood doesn't make sense.

Perhaps it is the simple lone wolf but that never really has felt complete to me. I've said here lately that I always wondered about Kokomani being there, being hooked in with Albanian dealers, Rudy being involved in at least some crime etc.

But I could imagine the kids somehow being crazy enough for 15 minute to kill with no motive. I don't think so, but possible and not the end all for proving innocence.

I would add that the early FOA pitch which included your theory is what ignited some of the PG intensity.

IMO


I've always felt that a strong motive carried more weight leading to a conviction than lack of motive does in leading to acquittal. We all understand that people will suddenly do things totally out of character for reasons we may never understand. But I also believe this changes exponentially, in favor of innocence, when you introduce additional people of similar character into the mix. IOW, if, for example, the odds of either Amanda or Raffaele flipping out and killing Meredith were 1:1,000, the odds of both of them flipping out together and killing Meredith might be 1:10,000. It still doesn't prove anything, but realistically, it puts a greater burden on the prosecution to prove guilt.
 
I've always felt that a strong motive carried more weight leading to a conviction than lack of motive does in leading to acquittal. We all understand that people will suddenly do things totally out of character for reasons we may never understand. But I also believe this changes exponentially, in favor of innocence, when you introduce additional people of similar character into the mix. IOW, if, for example, the odds of either Amanda or Raffaele flipping out and killing Meredith were 1:1,000, the odds of both of them flipping out together and killing Meredith might be 1:10,000. It still doesn't prove anything, but realistically, it puts a greater burden on the prosecution to prove guilt.
Yes, although this is not addressed to me, I will say you make an excellent point.

Just because something is not fully impossible need not mean it should be entertained seriously. It is not fully impossible that you are planning to take over the government, but why entertain such an accusation within a vacume?

Of course there is always some motive, no matter how obscure, even for a flipping out murder which occurs in 15 minutes. The problem is, on sites such as pmf and tjmk, they do believe there was real probability, motive, frame of mind, etc. (and so did Mignini , Massei, et al.) They believe Knox and Sollecito killing Kercher was an accident waiting to happen, nearly inevitable.

I have read those sites since prior to the conviction of 2009, and they cannot see Knox as NOT committing the crime. One can see this clearly post acquittal. So given their understanding of who she was, they believe she was a ticking time bomb.....it was only a matter of time....
 
Ever seen what it is said was 'given' to them by Amanda with her 'gift' note of the 6th? You'll have to log in to your 'other' account, unless you were mercilessly expunged, but you can see it here.

LOL. Indeed, I was expunged back in March for posting this:

Dear Spartacus: I’ve actually been disinvited from this board, although they didn't delete me as requested, so let me step in to explain how this thing works to save you some time and to allow everyone here to get back to their main interests.

First, disregard what this SomeAlibi guy says. I think he is some sort of paralegal or workers comp lawyer with a puzzling obsession with turnips.

If you come on this board and generally disagree with what has happened in this case then eventually you will get “banned.” The reason is that this board is not for discussing the merits of the case. It is for spinning press, discussing guilt, and displaying pictures of cats and emoticons.

Now, like me, you might have had questions about this case. So you looked around, and found that the people on this board are urging you to just read the Massei Report and then you will understand everything. So, you picked up the Massei Report, and if you have any legal background, or even just a brain, then you quickly came to understand that this thing is a complete clusterf___ (as discussed below, the unspoken secret is that everyone here knows it is, too).

So, you start analyzing the Report to make sense of how it went so wrong. You come here, you raise these issues, and you ask questions to either make sure you are getting your facts right or to make sure that you are understanding the contrary view.

What you will find is that there are several different kinds of people on this board. Some people are willing to discuss some issues with you, even if they don’t agree with you. Some will just deflect with personal attacks attempting to display varying degrees of wit. Some appear to be flat-out mindless.

If you persist, then you will raise significant issues about what the Massei Report says. What will happen is that if you are right, and they don’t have a canned “list” of facts to refute you, then they will say that you are “cherry-picking” (this is their talisman and label for enemies). Never mind that this is exactly what the appellate court is doing and will do in reviewing the case, and this is generally how legal matters are analyzed. Now, the unspoken truth is that this “cherry-picking” charge is actually a tacit admission that (i) you are right, and (ii) they know that there are numerous issues in the Massei Report that are wrong (these are the “cherries”).

If you persist in “cherry-picking” then they will begin to fear that you will pick so many cherries that the tree will be bare. So, they will insist that you address all of the issues at once, knowing full well that it took Massei hundreds of pages to make so many mistakes. Eventually you will just get banned, because you begin to worry some of the lesser luminaries and they will complain to the administrator.

Now, I hope that you have not come here trying to change anyone’s mind because it will not happen. Everyone here is emotionally invested in guilt. In fairness, they are all invested in guilt, because they have been irrevocably persuaded by the defendants’ lying and spinning after the fact. This is real evidence, which they view this as stronger than the eyewitness/forensic evidence that the appellate court is looking at right now. They will never change, because their beliefs have been reinforced through years of inbred discussion on this board. I think this has actually changed their brain chemistry.

Because of their irrevocable belief in guilt, they will continue to believe in guilt even if the defendants are released from jail. In May, the DNA results will be rejected, and since Curatalo will be bounced, the strongest evidence tying the defendants to the scene will be gone, and the court will have developed a strong suspicion of the quality of the underlying investigation. The Court will maybe allow one more round of review (TOD, computers, footprints?), and then will bounce the case by Christmas. At that time, everyone can live happily ever after, except that the few here whose identities are known will have their personal reputations tarnished forever. The others will slink away leaving those unfortunates holding the bag.

Bottom line, don’t waste your time here discussing any real issues critical of the outcome of the case. It will not be tolerated and is not appreciated and will not be allowed.

Was not appreciated.
 
LOL. Indeed, I was expunged back in March for posting this:



Was not appreciated.

I missed that message originally, did they delete it? I was still reading there sporadically at the time, in fact I found the Wired NY thread as a result of them making fun of the guy named Frank.

I found this part especially prophetic:

Diocletus said:
In May, the DNA results will be rejected, and since Curatalo will be bounced, the strongest evidence tying the defendants to the scene will be gone, and the court will have developed a strong suspicion of the quality of the underlying investigation. The Court will maybe allow one more round of review (TOD, computers, footprints?), and then will bounce the case by Christmas.

They can't say you didn't warn them! :p
 
LOL. Indeed, I was expunged back in March for posting this:



Was not appreciated.
So this was written privately to you, and then you publicly posted this private communication on PMF, and were consequently banned? It is illuminating, for sure....
 
I missed that message originally, did they delete it? I was still reading there sporadically at the time, in fact I found the Wired NY thread as a result of them making fun of the guy named Frank.

I found this part especially prophetic:

They can't say you didn't warn them! :p

No it is (or at least was) still there. They actually had a reason for leaving it up--something about how it would be proof to the world of how awful "FOA"s are. LOL.
 
So this was written privately to you, and then you publicly posted this private communication on PMF, and were consequently banned? It is illuminating, for sure....

No--it wasn't private. It was just a posting that I wrote specifically addressing one other board member.
 
No--it wasn't private. It was just a posting that I wrote specifically addressing one other board member.
Oh, I see now. You are the author, posting openly on the board. I thought perhaps a member sent you a pm, "telling it like it is", and you were banned for outing it!:p In any case, illuminating.
 
Yes, although this is not addressed to me, I will say you make an excellent point.

Just because something is not fully impossible need not mean it should be entertained seriously. It is not fully impossible that you are planning to take over the government, but why entertain such an accusation within a vacume?

Of course there is always some motive, no matter how obscure, even for a flipping out murder which occurs in 15 minutes. The problem is, on sites such as pmf and tjmk, they do believe there was real probability, motive, frame of mind, etc. (and so did Mignini , Massei, et al.) They believe Knox and Sollecito killing Kercher was an accident waiting to happen, nearly inevitable.

I have read those sites since prior to the conviction of 2009, and they cannot see Knox as NOT committing the crime. One can see this clearly post acquittal. So given their understanding of who she was, they believe she was a ticking time bomb.....it was only a matter of time....

Also a good point. The entire concept of using one's character to judge the likeliness of them committing a crime presupposes an honest assessment of their character. It's a good bet that those who continue to exhort "Foxy Knoxy" as an indication that Amanda was a sexually obsessive femme fatale are not making an honest assessment of her character.
 
Yes, although this is not addressed to me, I will say you make an excellent point.

Just because something is not fully impossible need not mean it should be entertained seriously. It is not fully impossible that you are planning to take over the government, but why entertain such an accusation within a vacume?

Of course there is always some motive, no matter how obscure, even for a flipping out murder which occurs in 15 minutes. The problem is, on sites such as pmf and tjmk, they do believe there was real probability, motive, frame of mind, etc. (and so did Mignini , Massei, et al.) They believe Knox and Sollecito killing Kercher was an accident waiting to happen, nearly inevitable.

I have read those sites since prior to the conviction of 2009, and they cannot see Knox as NOT committing the crime. One can see this clearly post acquittal. So given their understanding of who she was, they believe she was a ticking time bomb.....it was only a matter of time....

This is one of the curious aspects of this case: the way the guilter faction have created an entirely fictitious version of the 2 accused - particularly Amanda - in order to make their preposterous scenario of the crime seem somehow likely.

Of course, the fact that the real Amanda and Raff were never likely culprits wouldn't help them if there was genuine evidence against them, but having said that it would have to be quite strong evidence, and unambiguous: for an extraordinary conclusion that has to be extraordinary evidence. In fact, as we know, there is an extraordinary lack of evidence, which is why the case should never have been brought.
 
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@TruthCalls and Antony:

Right. If the PMF/TJMK sites were to make a film about the events leading up to the murder, they would show Knox and Sollecito stoned, browsing through violent porn, filled with a smoldering jealousy and rage at the lovely and perfect Meredith.

The background music would be eerie as close-ups of Knox and Sollecito's shifty glances at the unsuspecting Meredith were shown.

The audience would know that something was building, slowly but surely, day by day - for the 6 days Knox and Sollecito knew eachother - until finally:

"Amanda, you took the rent money? Why you....no, no put down the knife!" But you see, it was inevitable.

This was acceptable as a stance in 2007. In 2011, to see them still holding to this is disconcerting. It seems pathetic, or worse.
 
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Sorry to say it, but Machiavelli is the one who has the problem with distinguishing logical concepts, not you. None so blind as those who will not see.:rolleyes: That Knox made false statements is clear to all. Whether she did so under duress, or with full knowledge and intent, or with malice aforethought, is what is in question.

I personally tend to think that since she was acquitted of the murder that would logically say that she was not there. Therefore, how could she know who WAS there? What follows that is how could she have "knowingly" provided false information if she didn't know who was there? However, she could still "provide false information" without knowing who was there. I don't understand how Machiavelli doesn't understand this.......:boggled:
 
I personally tend to think that since she was acquitted of the murder that would logically say that she was not there. Therefore, how could she know who WAS there? What follows that is how could she have "knowingly" provided false information if she didn't know who was there? However, she could still "provide false information" without knowing who was there. I don't understand how Machiavelli doesn't understand this.......:boggled:
I agree: It would all seem to point toward the police having convinced her that she was there, and that she must be covering for someone, and this must be Patrick, as she texted him the night of the murder. Since Hellmann upheld the calumnia charge, he is either assuming that she ought to have resisted, or that she will appeal, and win.
 
I personally tend to think that since she was acquitted of the murder that would logically say that she was not there. Therefore, how could she know who WAS there? What follows that is how could she have "knowingly" provided false information if she didn't know who was there? However, she could still "provide false information" without knowing who was there. I don't understand how Machiavelli doesn't understand this.......:boggled:

"knowingly provide false information" means you know the information you provide is false. It's true that if she was not there she couldn't possibly know who was, but that doesn't mean she can't tell the police who was there, knowing that it's false information because she really doesn't know.

However, in Amanda's case, she has repeatedly made it clear from the beginning that her recollection was very confused, that she didn't trust her own memories. And in the 'disputed' (?) memorandum of the 7th she goes so far as to state she wasn't lying the day before, that she told police exactly what she was remembering (albeit confused) at that time, but that now she is certain she wasn't home and therefore couldn't know.

Personally, I think anyone who still believes she is guilty of the calunnia charge ignores both the full context of her Nov 6th and 7th memorandums as well as the accusations she has steadfastly maintained against the police during the interrogation of her.
 
Personally, I think anyone who still believes she is guilty of the calunnia charge ignores both the full context of her Nov 6th and 7th memorandums as well as the accusations she has steadfastly maintained against the police during the interrogation of her.
Do you think perhaps Hellmann upped the calumnia sentencing to 3 years:

1. to "look tough" and to give a nod to Italy, in the face of the pending acquittals
2. because he knew she could appeal and win in the face of the acquittals, and the strongly worded language of these crimes were not committed, these are not facts etc.
 
Good catch. It is pretty clear that they were not satisfied with her vague and confused statements, lacking details and information only someone involved would know. That's why they continued to question her after the 1:45AM statement and got something with at least a thud and a scream. They knew what they had was not convincing, yet they went with it anyway.

I have to say that Amanda lacked the common sense to understand at some earlier point it was to her benefit not to say or write anything else. Still cooperating even after her betrayal by the cops.

It seems to me that Amanda was so innocent and naive that it didn't even occur to her that she could refuse what the police were asking of her.
 
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