Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

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bookitty said:
As expected, the JREF forum is primarily anti-OWS which doesn't bother me. The forum population includes a high percentage of overly-educated, doughy, middle-aged guys and that tends to lean just slightly to the right. (That is also, incidentally, why I like posting here. Echo-chambers are very dull.)

As an occupier/activist I do have one question though - If the issues addressed by OWS* and various occupies are something that concern me, how else can I make my voice heard? This is not a facetious question. After using all the tools available to a citizen, I no longer have faith in any traditional aspect of our democratic system.



*economic injustice, politicians that are reliant on corporate cash to be elected, a government that is unduly influenced by lobbiers & special interest groups, stagnant wages, health care bankruptcies, our ever increasing poverty and unemployment numbers PLUS the stupidity of having the second lowest corporate and income tax rates partially because of tax breaks that went into effect while we were invading two countries. and paying for those tax breaks by cutting all aspects of social services - cops, firemen, teachers, CPS, social workers, employment offices, appeals for VA claims, etc, etc, etc to the point where many of these vital services are unable to function properly.
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Could you pare the list down to a more manageable level?

And who you calling doughy? :mad:
 
bookitty said:
As expected, the JREF forum is primarily anti-OWS which doesn't bother me. The forum population includes a high percentage of overly-educated, doughy, middle-aged guys and that tends to lean just slightly to the right. (That is also, incidentally, why I like posting here. Echo-chambers are very dull.)
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I'm a high school dropout with no job who's currently accruing student debt.

And how do all the slightly-right-leaners here account for the overwhelmingly anti-Christian, pro-gay-rights, pro-abortion, anti-Tea-Party-and-Republican standpoint that permeates the forum?

bookitty said:
As an occupier/activist I do have one question though - If the issues addressed by OWS* and various occupies are something that concern me, how else can I make my voice heard? This is not a facetious question. After using all the tools available to a citizen, I no longer have faith in any traditional aspect of our democratic system.
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The thing about democracy is that majority rules. It is a very, very common complaint from many people who disagree with the status quo that if they use the tools available to them to argue for a certain change and that change doesn't happen, it means their voice hasn't been heard - presumably because if anyone actually heard them they'd agree without hesitation. Well yes, actually; if you used those tools, your voice definitely was heard; it was simply outweighed by all the dissenting voices.

Regular people, who are not rich or politically powerful, manage to get laws made and repealed all the time.
 
bookitty said:
As expected, the JREF forum is primarily anti-OWS which doesn't bother me. The forum population includes a high percentage of overly-educated, doughy, middle-aged guys and that tends to lean just slightly to the right.
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The stereotyping is strong in this one. :jedi:

As an occupier/activist I do have one question though - If the issues addressed by OWS* and various occupies are something that concern me, how else can I make my voice heard? This is not a facetious question.
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I've got no problem with protests. But there's no reason protesters need to break the law in order to protest. There's no reason protesters need to camp overnight on property they aren't allowed to camp on. There's no reason protesters need to create filthy, disease-ridden messes wherever they go. The tea party didn't.

After using all the tools available to a citizen, I no longer have faith in any traditional aspect of our democratic system.
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Have you actually used all the tools available?

I doubt it.

Nor does your complaint generate any sympathy from me for breaking the law. The fact that the democratic process hasn't produced the result YOU want doesn't permit you to discard the rule of law. When you do away with the "traditional aspects of our democratic system", what you're left with is mob rule, and I want no part of that. Neither, I think, would you, if you understood where that will actually lead.
 
bookitty said:
As expected, the JREF forum is primarily anti-OWS which doesn't bother me. The forum population includes a high percentage of overly-educated, doughy, middle-aged guys and that tends to lean just slightly to the right. (That is also, incidentally, why I like posting here. Echo-chambers are very dull.)

As an occupier/activist I do have one question though - If the issues addressed by OWS* and various occupies are something that concern me, how else can I make my voice heard? This is not a facetious question. After using all the tools available to a citizen, I no longer have faith in any traditional aspect of our democratic system.



*economic injustice, politicians that are reliant on corporate cash to be elected, a government that is unduly influenced by lobbiers & special interest groups, stagnant wages, health care bankruptcies, our ever increasing poverty and unemployment numbers PLUS the stupidity of having the second lowest corporate and income tax rates partially because of tax breaks that went into effect while we were invading two countries. and paying for those tax breaks by cutting all aspects of social services - cops, firemen, teachers, CPS, social workers, employment offices, appeals for VA claims, etc, etc, etc to the point where many of these vital services are unable to function properly.
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I feel the same way. These issues are of great concern, but I don't know if the OWS protests are the best way to go about forcing change. They to attract attention and open up discussion, but they also attract some interesting characters.

There is no simple solution, as it is a complex issue. But the reaction and hate the protests are stirring up shows that they're striking a nerve with those who are entrenched in the system.

This article explains some of the reasons people are upset and feeling disenfranchised. http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1
 
bookitty said:
Yeah, and wouldn't it be neat if some of those 401k's and mutual funds which plummeted after buying bad securities repackaged to look safe were repaid?
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Absolutely!

You know what wouldn't be so neat? Destroying whatever little is left for the victims by "bringing down the New York Stock Exchange".
 
bookitty said:
As expected, the JREF forum is primarily anti-OWS which doesn't bother me. The forum population includes a high percentage of overly-educated, doughy, middle-aged guys and that tends to lean just slightly to the right.
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Hey, I resent that. I'm pasty, not doughy.

And as for my voting record, I'm indeed leaning slightly to the right -- in Finland. In US terms, that might make me a left-wing Democrat.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
Could you pare the list down to a more manageable level?

And who you calling doughy? :mad:
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See, that's the problem. Really, the most serious problem. Not only can that list not be pared down but those are only the aspects that are most important to me. Another occupier might include recent attacks on EPA standards or the collusion behind the ill-advised Keystone XL pipeline.

If I had to, I could say something like "corporations are unduly influencing our government" but it takes all of 30 seconds to come up with 10 different ways that can interpreted.

I'm a frail 46-year old intellectual, do you really think I'd sleep in a gdammned tent if I thought there were any other solutions?
 
bookitty said:
The forum population includes a high percentage of overly-educated, doughy, middle-aged guys and that tends to lean just slightly to the right.
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So what?

As an occupier/activist I do have one question though - If the issues addressed by OWS* and various occupies are something that concern me, how else can I make my voice heard? This is not a facetious question. After using all the tools available to a citizen, I no longer have faith in any traditional aspect of our democratic system.
Click to expand...

Your voice will never be heard via OWS, they protest to only protest. You want your voice heard, organize voter registration campaigns (NYS really needs one), raise money and run for elected office yourself, even if you have to start out as city dog catcher. Make your own cable public access videos. There are a hundred things you can do, OWS wants you to stand around, yell, bang a drum and in the end do nothing.
 
Checkmite said:
The thing about democracy is that majority rules. It is a very, very common complaint from many people who disagree with the status quo that if they use the tools available to them to argue for a certain change and that change doesn't happen, it means their voice hasn't been heard - presumably because if anyone actually heard them they'd agree without hesitation. Well yes, actually; if you used those tools, your voice definitely was heard; it was simply outweighed by all the dissenting voices.

Regular people, who are not rich or politically powerful, manage to get laws made and repealed all the time.
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THIS

A thousand times this.

ETA: Nominated
 
bookitty said:
I'm a frail 46-year old intellectual, do you really think I'd sleep in a gdammned tent if I thought there were any other solutions?
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Does this mean you think sleeping in a tent is a solution? Because I'm having a hard time seeing how that course of action has any connection to the problems you outlined.
 
bookitty said:
I'm a frail 46-year old intellectual, do you really think I'd sleep in a gdammned tent if I thought there were any other solutions?
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The problem is that somebody convinced you that sleeping in a tent was any kind of possible solution, last resort or not.

I think the country could very certainly do with less corporate influence in government. I just never believed for a moment that the "OWS" culture - standing around wearing goofy masks, using bizarre pseudonyms, and something to do with drums, is the way to go about it. How can you say this movement gave you a "better chance for your voice to be heard"? Your problem with (say) the closing of a few local schools is completely drowned out by overly general sloganeering and drumming. And are we forgetting about the fact that anyone who dared to say anything as specific as "no tar sands pipeline" was immediately and vociferously decried as "not representing the movement"?
 
Alt+F4 said:
So what?



Your voice will never be heard via OWS, they protest to only protest. You want your voice heard, organize voter registration campaigns (NYS really needs one), raise money and run for elected office yourself, even if you have to start out as city dog catcher. Make your own cable public access videos. There are a hundred things you can do, OWS wants you to stand around, yell, bang a drum and in the end do nothing.
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I have already spent so much time with voter registration campaigns, with petitions, with letter writing. it has been less than useless.

Although the idea of running for office is pretty. it's so Hollywood - march into Washington with my horde of cable TV watching allies. It might help if I was someone who could completely navigate the twisty inroads of the financial sector; has thoroughly studied the economics of all aspects of the private sector, from huge corporations to individual bankruptcies; has insider knowledge of the bailout but is still focused on consumer protection; and understands law well enough to teach it at Harvard.

Oh wait, I'm talking about Elizabeth Warren and look how much support she's getting with an honestly grassroots campaign. (Hint: It's not enough to be elected president.)
 
bookitty said:
As expected, the JREF forum is primarily anti-OWS which doesn't bother me. The forum population includes a high percentage of overly-educated, doughy, middle-aged guys and that tends to lean just slightly to the right.
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Oh, that's what it is. Thanks.

Alt+F4 said:
Indeed. Ok, I'm (barely) middle aged, I'm a woman and I don't lean right.
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Maybe not by US standards...
 
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