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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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That's what the man said, no error on their part. He also said the evidence was contradictory and unsatisfactory to arrive at a conviction. He also said the genetic expertise was a key factor. From this it seems the "blame" he is putting is on Massei and Stefi.

http://www3.lastampa.it/cronache/sezioni/articolo/lstp/423553/

In fact, you correctly note that the only "blame" compatible with Hellmann's words is on Massei or Stefi. The quotes are correct on the word "blame", since its merely an hypothesys made in this discussion, Hellmann in fact never addresses any blame on anyone.
 
...
With regard to Mignini, Hellmann does not need to state the obvious. Only a truly perverse sensibility would judge as "blameless" a man who has been convicted of abuse of office in his own trial of first instance. Just as you and the entire guilter tribe judged AK and RS blameless, right?

...

But Hellmann did state that the prosecutors are blameless.
And he stated that he would have done the same things.

This is what he himself said. Not the guilter tribe.

So you judge Hellmann "truly perverse".
 
But Hellmann did state that the prosecutors are blameless.
And he stated that he would have done the same things.

This is what he himself said. Not the guilter tribe.

So you judge Hellmann "truly perverse".

And I do not buy for one second that Hellmann truly believes this. He was tasked with coming to Perugia to clean up a mess that was an embarrassment to Italy. He did so, while simultaneously saving some face.

But, of course, you evade the crux of my post.

You could argue that an elephant could suspend itself by its trunk from a daisy on the edge of the Grand Canyon. And, if it suited your argument in this case, I have no doubt you would cheerfully embrace such a position. But this does not make it necessarily so.
 
And I do not buy for one second that Hellmann truly believes this. He was tasked with coming to Perugia to clean up a mess that was an embarrassment to Italy. He did so, while simultaneously saving some face.

But, of course, you evade the crux of my post.

... .

What was the crux of your post? The first paragraph where you stated I live in a bizarro world, or the third paragraph where you stated I am irrational and you anticipate what I will do with the Hellmann's report?

Hellmann makes a statement, and you now say he is lying. This simply because this would be the only interpretation that fits in your view of reality.

Your assumption that the case was an embarassment to Italy is a delusional insult that deserves no comment: I only note this is driven by your inconsious, self-centred idea that what Americans think is something important to Italians. And that judges are anyway always concerned about "embarassement" of foreign countries instead of justice. These ideas are in fact offensive themselves: they demonstrate an utterly narcissistic attitude towards reality, beyond ethnocentrism.

Besides, the obvious slogan with "saving face" is just contradictory. The face of whom? You are entangling yourself in a whirl of contradictions and delusional statemetns "tasked with coming to Perugia", just remarking your racism and your arrogant contempt for justice.
 
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I was just messing with you. Sad you didn't take the bait. :p

Years of on-line chatting has innoculated me (mostly) from reacting to a cheekily provocative post. Besides, IIP is a fairly good site. I don't agree with all of it, I have a general innocenter orientation, and people on the IIP site argue fairly but firmly for the most part.

I did get "foe'd" by one user, though. Never knew an interactive website would have a "foe" button, but it generally means that that person no longer sees your posts.

The bottom line - good to have the innocent parties back to their regular lives. I wish them complete anonymity, and the ability to walk in a mall with no one even able to i.d. them, much less really care about the 2007 to 2009 period for them.

Would ANYONE here have cared one bit about people with those names if it had not been for an Italian prosecution which persecuted them and manufactured evidence? I wish them the anonymity as if that had not happened.
 
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What was the crux of your post? The first paragraph where you stated I live in a bizarro world, or the third paragraph where you stated I am irrational and you anticipate what I will do with the Hellmann's report?

Hellmann makes a statement, and you now say he is lying. This simply because this would be the only interpretation that fits in your view of reality.

Your assumption that the case was an embarassment to Italy is a delusional insult that deserves no comment: I only note this is driven by your inconsious, self-centred idea that what Americans think is something important to Italians. And that judges are anyway always concerned about "embarassement" of foreign countries instead of justice. These ideas are in fact offensive themselves: they demonstrate an utterly narcissistic attitude towards reality, beyond ethnocentrism.

Besides, the obvious slogan with "saving face" is just contradictory. The face of whom? You are entangling yourself in a whirl of contradictions and delusional statemetns "tasked with coming to Perugia", just remarking your racism and your arrogant contempt for justice.

Precisely the sort of abject nonsense I knew you had in you. Happy I could elicit it from you in order to further demonstrate the baselessness and absurdity of your "argumentation."

Given that everything you think and write is false -- including "a" and "the" -- I'll most certainly abstain from your moral tutelage. As a practicing Episcopalian, I'd sooner accept a remonstration from Lucifer, himself; at least the Great Tempter has a consistent and rational perspective.
 
Bizarro World

Draca said:
Mignini and Comodi and Stefanoni are true and just, they are the right ones


HOW can they be TRUE and JUST when they have all LIED and manipulated. It astonishes me that you can say this with a strait face. These people are deceitful scumbags that put innocent people in jail for 4 years and further devastated a grieving family. I wish you would wake up to that.


Draca said:
Because they did not manipulate and not lie, they fought for justice and revealed the truth on this as well as on other cases, investigated and indicted two people whom I consider guilty not innocent: the suspects are two liars guilty of murder in my opinion, and Knox was also found guilty of calunnia and condemned to pay trial expenses. The Kercher family has their own experts and consusltants and they were convincede by themselves that Knox and Sollecito were responsible.


This is bizarro world. Everything is opposite in your view. Really not just you, but the who colpevolisti vs innocentisit worlds.
Mignini, Comodi, Stefanoni, Maresca are not just and true people in my world.


If anyone isn't familiar with Bizarro World here is a Seinfeld clip on it:

Elaine discovers Bizarro World Jerry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcjSDZNbOs0

It really blows my mind that there is this whole other world. Mignini - good, Comodi - good, Stefanoni - honest, Maresca - great man, Lumumba - completely innocent victim, 7 virgins - such nice girls. Also in Bizarro world Amanda - great actress, Raffaele - bad guy, Hellmann - corrupted.

Why is there such a HUGE disconnect here? Is it an honest disconnect or is it because of the closed off thought echo chambers?
 
My interest in the poll was one of the possible motivation of the responders, not so much the accuracy of the results. However, it has been interesting seeing one side claim one thing and the other side something completely different regarding those results. That part of it is also worth noting.

This case is so full of fantasy and it is difficult to tell truth from fiction, sincerity from mendacity. Snook1/Donnie's comments about his conversations with the PMF crowd has me asking if people actually believe their own stated position on guilt or innocence.

Posters on one side are eager to shoot down something that really means little and posters on the other are jumping to prop up a silly poll. I am just going to pretend everyone else has missed the point of my questions, otherwise it is me who just doesn't get it.

But the simplest motivation, that the answers they chose are the closest to express what they believe, would be quite a good explanation, or not?

Why you doubt they should mean something totally different? You seem a kind of person who usually doesn't like to see complicate things.
 
If anyone isn't familiar with Bizarro World here is a Seinfeld clip on it:

Elaine discovers Bizarro World Jerry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcjSDZNbOs0

It really blows my mind that there is this whole other world. Mignini - good, Comodi - good, Stefanoni - honest, Maresca - great man, Lumumba - completely innocent victim, 7 virgins - such nice girls. Also in Bizarro world Amanda - great actress, Raffaele - bad guy, Hellmann - corrupted.

Why is there such a HUGE disconnect here? Is it an honest disconnect or is it because of the closed off thought echo chambers?

I suspect the answer exists in some nether space between honesty and dishonesty. I agree with others here that the guilter community consists of genuinely problematic personalities. I have no hesitation in making the observation that PMF and TJMK demonstrate some of the hallmarks of cults, nor in calling them hate sites.

Certain posters issue from those inscrutable locales to sites like this, like so many interstellar creatures, convinced of their own rightness and superiority but unrecognizable to mere earthlings.
 
If anyone isn't familiar with Bizarro World here is a Seinfeld clip on it:

Elaine discovers Bizarro World Jerry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcjSDZNbOs0

It really blows my mind that there is this whole other world. Mignini - good, Comodi - good, Stefanoni - honest, Maresca - great man, Lumumba - completely innocent victim, 7 virgins - such nice girls. Also in Bizarro world Amanda - great actress, Raffaele - bad guy, Hellmann - corrupted.

Why is there such a HUGE disconnect here? Is it an honest disconnect or is it because of the closed off thought echo chambers?

You cited Maresca. But... there is still someone missing.
What do you think about John Kercher's world? Is he a thinking entity?

And Hellmann convicting Amanda's for calunnia, is that an echo effect?

(my questions don't mean to be provocative, I see they may sound like)
 
You cited Maresca. But... there is still someone missing.
What do you think about John Kercher's world? Is he a thinking entity?

And Hellmann convicting Amanda's for calunnia, is that an echo effect?

(my questions don't mean to be provocative, I see they may sound like)


Maybe John Kercher and the Calunnia charge are where the two bizarro worlds bump into each other? :p

In my mind JK is a messed up man who has been misled to think AK & RS are guilty by the Florentine Serpent, can not see the truth and continues to lash out in writing toward AK in particular. So tell me in your world, bizarro world, how is he seen? Is he seen as a dignified, rightfully angered, grieving father? ... as a guess.

The calunnia charge is seen by me as a mistaken judgement. An award given for police corruption during the interrogation. I would have thrown it out because proper procedures weren't followed and that CAN NOT be tolerated. The excuse that she wasn't a 'suspect' for not recording the interrogation would not fly as a realistic answer.

And in bizarro world? How do you see it?
 
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Amanda's pillow...

<snip>
There's a spot of Knox's blood on the tap of the sink. It's totally dried and totally different in appearance and consistency from every other piece of blood evidence in the bathroom. There is not a single other drop of Knox's blood anywhere in the cottage. It's in fact likely that this one drop of blood was associated with Knox's poor effort to multi-pierce her ear a couple of days earlier. The spot/smear is so small as to be virtually unnoticeable under the normal bathroom lighting.

This spot of blood most certainly does not show that Knox was "there that night". Oh, and as a slight aside, one does not have to be a "staunch supporter" of Knox to reach this conclusion (O wouldn't count myself in this category, for example) - one merely has to be rational, intelligent and objective. Again, Hellmann's motivations report might make things a little clearer for you.
<snip>
Lovely stuff!


No, my thinking is not conclusion-driven; it is driven by consistence.
I require logical tightness between elements. Logical continuity. A series of many likely details that follow as natural course, not a series of disconnected answers, each one of them intrinsically unlikely.
I don’t accept a defence build of series of explanations of the kind “Amanda didn’t realize that he had a blood loss in the bathroom the day before and that she got blood on her finger and left blood stains on and near the faucet, and just got it wrong as she testified the blood stain was not there the night of nov.5 because didn’t notice the blood stain albeit it was already there”. This is a weak explanation. It is intrinsically (extremely) unlikely. Because most people know if they bleed the day before, and most people notice or recall if they saw a blood stain on a faucet the night before.
I may accept one point like this, incidentally slipping into a consistent explanation. But I cannot accept a scenario that is built of a whole series elements more or less like this, which are unlikely or weak, or inconsistent and unrelated by logical links, and unsupported.


Hi LondonJohn and Machiavelli,
Your discussion made me recall something possibly relevant to help figure things out. I thought that I had read about there being a blood stain found on Amanda's pillow.

There was:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...01286599.45660.106344459390034&type=1&theater

In this post by Draca,
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7463367#post7463367
she says that the pillow was finally collected on Dec. 18.
Check out the other photo's also, the cops trashed her bedroom too like they did Meredith's...

Let's say for the sake of argument that the same problem ear piercing that caused Amanda to leave a blood stain on her pillow also was the cause of the dried blood stain that she left on her bathroom sink. She definitely was fiddlin' around with her ear a bit!(*)

I'll hazard a guess that the date of this pillow stain was from before Amanda even met Raffaele on Oct. 25, since she was sleeping at his place every night after meeting him, correct?

So Amanda's bathroom sink blood stain is probably irrelevant to help decide who murdered Meredith Kercher, as is her blood stained pillow, no?
Hmmmm,
RW


* - I've got 2 good size ear piercings that my Mom, who died in '94,
did waaay back at the end of the 80's. She pierced them the good old fashioned way, a huge needle, a lighter, and a potato. And those piercings only bleed if I try to put a much bigger circular barbell in 'em. Amanda must have really been fiddlin' around with her ears to get blood on the faucet and then on her pillow too, IMHO...
 
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I suspect the answer exists in some nether space between honesty and dishonesty. I agree with others here that the guilter community consists of genuinely problematic personalities. I have no hesitation in making the observation that PMF and TJMK demonstrate some of the hallmarks of cults, nor in calling them hate sites.

Certain posters issue from those inscrutable locales to sites like this, like so many interstellar creatures, convinced of their own rightness and superiority but unrecognizable to mere earthlings.


I suspect you are exactly right about this.
 
But the simplest motivation, that the answers they chose are the closest to express what they believe, would be quite a good explanation, or not?

Why you doubt they should mean something totally different? You seem a kind of person who usually doesn't like to see complicate things.


So lets just say the poll is right. Only 11% of those polled think Amanda and Raffaele are actually innocent.

What would that mean to me?
1) IIP was deficient in communicating its message to Italians.
2) The press in Italy did a poor job, outside of outstanding exceptions, in revealing the truth to the public.
3) The average Italian is still not aware of just how outrageously unjust this case was.
4) Sadly, the authorities who created this mess will get away unscathed because the Italian public does not understand the injustice they committed.
5) Locals in Umbria were too offended at being criticized to investigate if the injustice declared by THE FOA was correct. VERGOGNA!
 
Grammatically, semantically, pragmatically and logically false.

The second part modifies the first part into agreeing because you've always held them to be innocent.

It's thusly impossible to properly answer the question if your belief in innocence derives from the appeal.
It's also impossible to properly answer the poll if you believe that they are innocent AND that there was media pressure.
It's also impossible to properly answer the poll if you belive them to be innocent AND believe that it was an injustice they were convicted in the first place, if you believed in guilt at the time but now believe they were wrongfully convicted.

....

My interest in the poll was one of the possible motivation of the responders, not so much the accuracy of the results. However, it has been interesting seeing one side claim one thing and the other side something completely different regarding those results. That part of it is also worth noting.

This case is so full of fantasy and it is difficult to tell truth from fiction, sincerity from mendacity. Snook1/Donnie's comments about his conversations with the PMF crowd has me asking if people actually believe their own stated position on guilt or innocence.

Posters on one side are eager to shoot down something that really means little and posters on the other are jumping to prop up a silly poll. I am just going to pretend everyone else has missed the point of my questions, otherwise it is me who just doesn't get it.

FWIW, I didn't see the discussion on the poll results quite the way you did. I absolutely agree that people interpret evidence so as to make it conform to their views and that may have been part of what was going on here but I think mostly people claimed that the poll was flawed to the point that it was difficult to draw any information from it. . I think most of us would have seen the poll as flawed without looking at any of the results. Skind and others did a pretty good job of summing up what was wrong with the questions and others pointed out that the poll was just an internet poll without any mechanism of insuring random sampling and as such had the potential to be completely unrepresentative of the view of the people it was claimed to represent.

Having said that I wouldn't be surprised that about half the people in Perugia thought the second verdict was correct and about half the people disagreed with the verdict which was what was roughly reported by the poll, but I also wouldn't be surprised if public opinion in Perugia was much different than that. I think it's pretty clear that any conclusions from that poll about what the public thinks in Perugia are questionable.
 
Hi LondonJohn and Machiavelli,


RW,

I was just thinking that I only have 658 posts since May 2010. You're at 874 posts since APR 2010.

Compared to LJ's amazing almost 5000 posts, it seems like a small amount. I felt like I posted a lot! That may be because I read along with it all. Your posts always stand out to me and make an impact; they hit harder than their pounds. :)
 
But Hellmann did state that the prosecutors are blameless.
And he stated that he would have done the same things.

This is what he himself said. Not the guilter tribe.

So you judge Hellmann "truly perverse".





Is this something Hellmann said that can be found in a trial transcript? Or is it something that comes second hand from a reporter?

I have no doubt that Hellmann is a long standing member of the crony club and I can expect some face saving attempt to justify the environment he works in daily. But then again maybe he was simply taking a shot at the most likely real criminals in this case…Mignini, Comodi and party. Or maybe he needed to say something to allow him to escape town and live out his life without fear of retribution from the wolf pack?

Personally I think Hellmann is someone sent in to clean up a mess that was embarrassing to Italy. The police and prosecutor and courts of Perugia are so corrupt that I cant imagine how they will escape justice in this matter. You would have to be a blind idiot to fall for the simpleton tricks used at every single point in what was always an extremely weak case.

And so I think Hellmann also has a job to save some “face” for Italy. That is the reason for his transparent and wrong (btw) decision at sustaining the slander charge against Knox. Lets face it …when you can get Novelli to ruin his name by standing up for work as shoddy as Stefanoni and Co. then you can expect anything from the Italians. If the work was even close to being legit then I myself could understand Novelli taking a position like he did. As it stands though he has forever stained his scientific creditability and will forever more be known as someone incapable of honest, objective, scientific sound reasoning. In short he has made himself into a fraud.

Not surprising given how many others have that same fate thrust upon them by the “gerbil on a exercise wheel“…Mignini. It must be something in the water though because we can watch the same abnormal behavior in the Scazzi case. And also in the case brought against the scientists for failing to predict an earthquake.

These three cases along with the Mignini section of the Monster Of Florence case exemplify backward thinking and shine a bright light on the fact that there are people who actually think its ok to hold witch trials.

The whole world watched this case but no one narrated the true story of the very real attempt at passing off bizzaro world as the real world. The true story is almost comical in its absurdity. That they nearly pulled it off shows how gullible people can become to the powerful and the foolish.

I don’t think this story will simply disappear for the Italians. Its like trying to ignore the Grand Canyon. Or like trying to argue with YummiMac. The more reasonable and logical your argument the wilder and more wordy his answers become.

The truth must come out. This case will bury Mignini, Comodi , and several judges. And by taking such blatant actions and obvious cover ups there are enough side stories for 5 movies and 10 books. Its as if the Mafia runs Italy and its courts and the police….who knew???
 
[IMGL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=597&pictureid=4045[/IMGL]
Note that I don't run away, but I just can't follow a discussion with a dozen posters (not even with three of four). It's impossible. You can't expect a person alone to run after each one of your arguments (btw each of them old and discussed). My role here is only to give information that people might not know, like Kaosium's latest question.


We can expect a person to defend their own arguments. It was your argument that a cleanup was the only plausible explanation for that lonely print on the bathmat. But there you go, turning tail and running from the far superior argument. The one supported by the visible evidence as opposed to the make believe evidence of a cleanup that you deploy.

Speaking of cleanups, you were questioning how Rudy could have poured water on his trowser leg to rinse the blood off. Have you ever found out if there was anything in the apartment that would be suitable? Maybe a cup or a pan from the kitchen??
 
But the simplest motivation, that the answers they chose are the closest to express what they believe, would be quite a good explanation, or not?

Why you doubt they should mean something totally different? You seem a kind of person who usually doesn't like to see complicate things.

So lets just say the poll is right. Only 11% of those polled think Amanda and Raffaele are actually innocent.

What would that mean to me?
1) IIP was deficient in communicating its message to Italians.
2) The press in Italy did a poor job, outside of outstanding exceptions, in revealing the truth to the public.
3) The average Italian is still not aware of just how outrageously unjust this case was.
4) Sadly, the authorities who created this mess will get away unscathed because the Italian public does not understand the injustice they committed.
5) Locals in Umbria were too offended at being criticized to investigate if the injustice declared by THE FOA was correct. VERGOGNA!

What I do know is that National polls on the justice system in Italy show that there is an opinion among Italians that the system is far from perfect. I also know that the ECHR puts the same system at or near the bottom of the pile.

In this case you have one court claiming guilt and a second (higher) court claiming innocence. This court exists to give a second look at things and is supposed to be better at coming to the correct decision. If the Italian people had more faith in the system the numbers that believe in innocence would be higher. My position on this is that public opinion is not tied to the court's decision, it may have some small impact on the numbers but is not the main factor.

I have been following several Italian cases and admit to seeing what can only be described as a general distrust of the system. The media seem to play a major role in public opinion yet it seems they recognize a lot of information from the cops is fed to the media. A good conspiracy theory gets a lot of attention. You have mentioned the Elisa Claps case several times, the opinion now is that the Church knew they had a dead body in that attic and just left it there. BTW, anytime I see Stefi say "they didn't use the latest technology", I cringe because it is almost as if she knew in advance they would find that DNA the second time around. I don't have much doubt this guy is guilty but I do have some doubts about the results.

The other thing is the local editorial I cited about the same time as this poll, the one that said we stand with Mignini, Comodi, the cops, and yes, even Stefi. LOL. The same editorial mentions a plethora of US and Italian intelligence services around for the appeal and doesn't seem to mind a charge of the verdict being the result of political pressure. My position is that this is not only the result of National Pride but also a result of Local Pride. Mignini, Comodi, local cops, even Stefi are heroes, standing strong against political influence and corruption. Go figure.

What seems to be missing in many of the local articles is a discussion of the evidence. Other than the DNA and AK's accusation/calumnia, there is not much specific discussion happening.
 
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Well, let’s say: the most usual way things go, is that there are two convictions. I repeat that I don’t have stats, but I feel the wide majority of murder trials (maybe like 70% or so) are simply a sequence of convictions with no significant change. In fact only about 15% of verdicts are significantly reversed in the merits (like innocent to guilty or vice versa).
So it is the reversal that itself is rather unusual. This is because most cases are simple and usually evidence is obvious. However, as we consider only difficult or complicate cases, stats seem to change dramatically.

That was my guess as well from what I came across, that most trials were three-and-out, but there was a number of cases in which that was not the case, enough to be considered out of the ordinary.

Incidentally, does the above include 'fast track' cases or well, or just the three stage trials? I understand that 'fast track' can also yield an acquittal, but that's even rarer than normal, right? Would it be considered extraordinary, (in murder cases) or does it happen sometimes when the prosecution has a really weak case and the defendant just wants to get it over with?
I try to recall by memory a list of some high-profile cases:

The Nicholas Green murder: Nicholas Green was a child, and a US citizen; his alleged killers were acquitted on first instance, then convicted on appeal (no physical evidence, only mafia witnesses).
The DAMS murder: a lover’s murder in Bologna, acquitted in the first instance, convicted in the appeal.
The Cogne murder: this was probably the highest profile case in Italy, short track trial, convicted in first instance, acquitted in appeal, then acquittal reversed at the supreme court, then convicted on a new appeal, then finally conviction confirmed at the supreme court.
Pacciani and the Monster of Florence: not a fast track murder, the three main suspects were convicted in first instance, then acquitted on appeal; then supreme court reversed (annulled) the verdicts, and on the new appeal the suspects were convicted (meanwhile Pacciani had died).
Giulio Andreotti: this was an unusual case, probably related to the very high profile of the defendant; not a fast track trial, he was acquitted of murder on first instance then convicted on appeal, but the conviction reversed by the supreme court with a definitive acquittal (but very powerful politicians may have friends at the supreme court).

So a handful of cases in those years that you can recall, perhaps not representative. I wonder just how much the media interest in the case perhaps impacts decisions made by the prosecutors and judges, or if the media naturally follows the cases in which unusual things happen? I see that twice the Supreme Court of Cassation has struck down an acquittal, though it doesn't look like it was for a good cause. Even Mignini thinks they got the wrong guys in the Monster of Florence cases, doesn't he?

Incidentally, do you know what grounds the Court of Cassation used to scuttle the convictions?

What does 'short track' mean in the Cogne case? At first I figured it was just a synonym for 'fast track' but the sequence of events doesn't match.

The cases I recall seem to have a slight prevalence of conviction on appeal after first instance acquittal, but not prevalent to the point of considering the reverse order as an exception.

Here's something else also interesting, this is Pictor's chart that he uploaded to PMF that Rose reposted recently. What does all of this mean for sure? I can puzzle some of it out, and I realize it's only for the Bologna Appeals court from 2001 to 2003 and it appears some of the data is only for six month periods, but I'm curious as to some of the results and what they might mean.

For example, just going by 'figura 15' for the category of 'violenza,' which I take to mean violent crime, it appears for 2001 and the first half of 2002 that 55.35% were modified. Would that be the definition applied to Amanda's case as the sentence was reduced to three years?


What they can do is only the first option, they can only remand to a new trial. They cannot actually convict without another trial. Because a conviction on the nullity of appeal would trigger the right to a second appeal. This is about the murder case, on which the prosecution has appealed. But about the calunnia, the defence has to appeal, thus this depends on if the defense decides to appeal the conviction. Because if the defence doesn’t appeal the conviction for calunnia, the latter will become automatically definitive within 45 days after the issue of the motivations report. I think the defense of Knox will likely submit an appeal for the calunnia conviction, but they haven't expressed this intent by now.

That's what I thought, do you foresee the possibility of the calunnia charge being struck down, and what is the status of the other two calunnia charges brought by police and the case against the Sollecitos? Those are tough to get info on!
 
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