• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ultimately, there were 14 points considered by the mappers and geologists. These points were within 4-5 miles of one another. This of course corroborates FIDO David Reed's account.



No. They refute Reed's account. For the last 100+ pages you've been saying the positions were greater than 25,000 feet apart. You're spewing so much nonsense you can't even keep your own male bovine excrement straight.
 
Sure I am qualified to address the lightning strike issue. It is simply a matter of common sense.

Nope. It's a matter of engineering, and engineering is a licensed profession.

Elsewhere you argued that people who are not qualified in the life sciences have no business arguing biology. Similarly I argue that people who are not trained engineers have no business questioning the judgment of those who are.

You are unqualified, inexperienced, and uninformed. And the judgment of the experts is unanimously against you.

It is irrefutable by the pro mainstream side.

It has been refuted more times than I can count. You simply ignore the refutation and insist that your belief must somehow be correct. You write the same plea over and over. You're clearly not listening.

Think about it Jay...

I have. And unlike you, I am qualified to do so. And all the other people who are qualified to do so agree with me, not with you.

This is one of those deep seeded lies Jay...

First of all, it's "seated."

Second, no it isn't a lie. This is one of those cases -- and there are many in your various arguments -- where you blatantly ignore all the facts around you and simply beg and plead that your belief must somehow be reasonable.

This is one of those cases where you make up a "rule" for everyone to follow, and then try to accuse them of impropriety for not following it. You don't get to beg the correctness of your expectations.

This is one of those cases where detailed analysis and rebuttal is presented, but you just wave the same generalities around as if they were any sort of response.

This isn't some mysterious question residing in the deep unconscious of the supposedly intellectually-hobbled mainstream. This isn't some horrible thing too unimaginable to be "open-minded" about. This isn't some case where we have to maintain a happy falsehood rather than have the universe come crashing down. This is simply a matter of you being wrong. Deal with it.

Imagine Jay if you were flying, and 2 minutes in to the flight, on the way up, the plane gets hit by lightning.

Been there, done that. My plane has been struck twice by lightning. The avionics flicker a bit, and then I just keep flying.

I don't know about you Jay, but I'd be fit to be tied.

That's why you don't get to be an expert.

When may I expect an actual response to my detailed analysis, instead of a lot of handwaving hysterics?
 
All considered, one may confidently conclude that the landing site coordinates as they appear in the Apollo 11 Mission Report are fraudulent and very much not those Lew Wade and the Apollo Program Mapping Specialists worked with on the evening of 07/20/1969 and morning of 07/21/1969.

Wow, so you found some more landing-site estimates that disagree because they were estimated according to various different methods.

The response now is the same as it has been for the past six months: so what?
 
Interestingly, someone like Clarke would understand Apollo 11 to be a fraudulent Mission, assuming he were in fact aware of the stories about no one knowing where the Eagle was.

Arthur C. Clarke was a wonderful author with whom I've had the privilege of working and for whom I was asked to do research regarding the Apollo missions. In other words, when Clarke needed to know something about Apollo, I'm one of the people he came to. The last item I researched for him before his death was the operation of the ALSEP installations.

In other words, if you consider him an expert, and he considered me an expert, what does that say about how you should treat my responses?

First of all, Clarke firmly believed the Apollo missions were real. No question about it. If you knew anything of value about Apollo history, you'd know that he was one of the television commentators broadcasting the landings. Yes, he knew of the attempts to locate the LM. So there's another expert you quote who disagrees with your principal findings. Citing him as an expert, therefore, in alleged support of your findings is per se dishonest.

Second, you don't have the faintest clue what you're talking about.

Ranger 9 didn't land on the Moon; it impacted the Moon. There was never any powered descent or adaptively-controlled approach. It followed the same long trajectory from its midcourse correction all the way to impact, allowing flight controllers to take many observations of angular position and doppler velocity data over a great length of time for that orbit. The Roger Bate reference I gave you at Apollohoax contains the method for determining orbital elements from such observations.

In contrast the Apollo LM followed a powered descent orbit intended to result in a soft landing, moving chiefly horizontally across the controllers' line of sight and applying innumerable engine and steering impulses along the way. Remote observation over the period of powered descent is not useful. Dead reckoning is the only useful method. Therefore several approaches to the dead-reckoning model were applied.

Comparing Ranger 9's descent trajectory to Apollo 11's isn't even like apples and oranges; more like applies and brake pads.

In any case, thank you for confirming again that you know absolutely nothing useful about orbital mechanics.
 
Sure I am qualified to address the lightning strike issue.

It is simply a matter of common sense.

BZZT!

That's all "common sense" is; common. Every week I deal with clients who think that common sense is all that is required to predict the behavior of a technology and science they are unfamiliar with. And very, very basic things trip them up. Imagine how bright a 60W bulb is. Now make it two bulbs. Twice the brightness, right? No. The human eye is a non-linear sensor. Most sensory stimuli are better simulated through a power law. But every week, I run into people who are thinking and saying and wanting to write contract based on the equivalent of thinking two bulbs are twice the perceived brightness. Or getting really angry when the bills come due, because their naive intuition didn't agree with either reality or what the contractor was trying to tell them.

Actually, though, there is one fairly good rule of thumb that tells you if you really do understand a technical or scientific field well enough to apply your instinct successfully. The test is this; do you think you know all you could possibly need to, and the situation is simple and intuitive? Then you are probably wrong about it. The people who actually know the subject are a lot more respectful of their limitations.


Nowadays, planes are more or less lightning proof. That is not to say, a plane cannot get damaged, and damaged very badly by a strike, but the science of "proofing" planes for lightning, electrical discharge protection, has come so so so far since the 60s.

Actually, 1967 was the last time a plane blew up and crashed due to a lightning strike. Unlikely to happen now. But even then, as in the recent case with the Irish plane, they aren't going to let you fly around once hit by lightning. They'll land you if they can to be sure the plane is OK.

Back in the 60s, they knew less about lightning strikes. Hits on planes were all the more sources of consternation.

The Apollo 12 lightning issue is one of the half dozen or so most important pieces of Apollo fraud evidence. It is irrefutable by the pro mainstream side. It is proof positive of big time fraud.

A confirmed lightning strike on a bird slated to go to the moon, 2 strikes there were actually, and you still go traipsing across cislunar space? I don't think so Jay. Way way way fake buddy.

Think about it Jay........ They initially have electrical problems immediately upon being hit. They get those squared away. They get up into earth orbit and then "all the systems check out fine" so what do they do? Well they go to the moon of course. Too ludicrous for words......

This is one of those deep seeded lies Jay, like denying the stars. Something insanely huge is behind it, the lie, that I haven't quite put my finger on yet. Just as in the case with the star phobia, it took me 3 months or so for me to figure out that lie was about laser fright. Now here in this case with "lightning nonchalance", another huge lie with some major motivation in its telling. Not quite there yet with the payoff, but it'll come to me. I have nothing but time to bust the Apollo fraud wide open. I am fully committed to exposing Neil et al. for the scammers they are Jay.

Imagine Jay if you were flying, and 2 minutes in to the flight, on the way up, the plane gets hit by lightning. Once you get to 30K, the pilot comes on the overhead and says, "no big deal, we're heading across the Atlantic regardless, the plane checks out fine".

I don't know about you Jay, but I'd be fit to be tied. I'd demand to get off that bad boy. Imagine if something happened? Law suit city. Imagine in the case of Apollo 12 were the strike real. Say they "GO!" but unfortunately, the astronauts die due to lightning strike related occult damage. It might not end Apollo forever, but it would shut it down big time, and the yo-yos that sent the astronauts, meaning all of the top brass, and I do mean brass as in military, would be axed.

This is one of the more obvious pieces of bogus narrative here Jay, the GO! post lightning strike.

So very fake, unbelievably so.

And you go on to say nothing but expressions of personal incredulity. At length. Inefficiently. But without adding a single additional detail to your argument, or supporting detail.



Let's think about your alternate scenario a moment here. Say lightning strikes. The decision is made to scrub and somehow this is done without ejecting and having the spacecraft destroyed by range control. Somehow.

So now you have the spacecraft on the ground. What do you do? You perform diagnostics. All the diagnostics pass. According to every test you can make, the electronics are in good working order.

NOW what do you do? You've already determined that this is insufficient. The spacecraft can not continue on its mission with this level of confidence. Any further investigation involves tear-down, and these circuits are not designed to be popped in and out like hot-swapping a USB peripheral.

So, sure, you could pull everything apart. And for all essential purposes be rebuilding it. Fresh wiring, with possibly fresh problems, which means another round of diagnostics.

Oh, I forgot. Diagnostics aren't good enough.

Follow this far enough, and you can't even build the spacecraft in the first place. That level of confidence is impossible to achieve.

But since the same goes for civilian airliners -- and even more so -- I think you've just managed to disprove flight itself.



I stretched things a bit. Actually, what you called for was indeed abort of mission. Which is to say; to subject the suspect electronics to an untried emergency procedure which had no more chance of being undamaged than the main mission profile did. And this gains us safety how?

Reality is that problems, potential and identified, are signed off on all the time. Someone has to make a call as to whether it is mission critical. This happens daily, in high-performance machines with human lives riding on their correct function. And sometimes the human beings make the wrong call. That happens to, and the procedures for that are also well known and tested.

If you wanted perfect predictability of outcome you wouldn't be in aerospace. Or in medicine. Or, really, anywhere. Any job in the world that has any measure of responsibility carries with it, well, responsibility; that at some point the chips are going to fall the wrong way and you will have been the person that said "Go for launch."
 
In Arthur C. Clarke's astonishingly good, THE PROMISE OF SPACE, published in 1968, Clarke noted that by the time Ranger 9 launched on March 21 1965 and then landed on the moon 24 March 1965, time 14:08:20 UT at latitude 12.91 south and 357.62 east (Alphonsus crater), the US/NASA space tracking system was so effective that it was able to determine the location of the craft to within a few feet, not to mention judge/measure its velocity with a similar degree of accuracy for the entirety of the Ranger's journey. A few feet....... Think about that for a moment...... That accurately tracked in 1965.

Another way to look at this is to emphasize that when Ranger 9 hit the moon in 1965, the boys back home tracking it knew to within the distance of a few feet where the bird hit, right at that very moment.

Joseph Wampler, the renown Lick Observatory telescope specialist who participated directly in the Apollo 11 LRRR experiment on the night of the alleged landing, 07/20/1969, said that to the best of his recollection, he was told the Eagle would be tracked such that when it touched down they'd know its location to within an accuracy of tens of feet.

One may confidently conclude from all of this that on the night of the Apollo 11 landing, whatever touched down, guided by whomever, under whatever circumstances, its location was known at the moment of touchdown to within an uncertainty of at most tens of feet.

This corroborates my earlier post in which I stressed there was absolutely no reason for anyone to make a claim that the Eagle's location was not known on the night of the landing. Of course it was. Just ask Aurthur C. Clarke.

Interestingly, someone like Clarke would understand Apollo 11 to be a fraudulent Mission, assuming he were in fact aware of the stories about no one knowing where the Eagle was.

WHEN?

You still don't understand that the accuracy to which a final position was determined has jack-all to do with uncertainty within a few minutes or hours of the landing.

How do you manage to read so many pages of so many books, and fill posts with so many no-break paragraphs of quotes and numbers, and not understand any of the underlying realities?
 
But even then, as in the recent case with the Irish plane, they aren't going to let you fly around once hit by lightning. They'll land you if they can to be sure the plane is OK.

Not true. The pilot is the authority in declaring an emergency. If the pilot determines the plane is ok he can decide to continue. Someone on the ground can not declare an emergency for a flying aircraft. Many planes have been struck by lightning and elected to continue.


They initially have electrical problems immediately upon being hit. They get those squared away. They get up into earth orbit and then "all the systems check out fine" so what do they do? Well they go to the moon of course. Too ludicrous for words......
Important part that you're ignoring is in bold.
 
No. They refute Reed's account. For the last 100+ pages you've been saying the positions were greater than 25,000 feet apart. You're spewing so much nonsense you can't even keep your own male bovine excrement straight.

If Reed's radar plot was the trigger that caused the discovery of the error at initial descent then both accounts make sense.
The numbers in the mission report table are corrected for that error.

Nothing to see here...
 
Imagine Jay if you were flying, and 2 minutes in to the flight, on the way up, the plane gets hit by lightning. Once you get to 30K, the pilot comes on the overhead and says, "no big deal, we're heading across the Atlantic regardless, the plane checks out fine".

I already posted I was in a Herc that got struck by lightning on the way to Cyprus, we didn't turn back or try to land until we got to our destination.
 
I already posted I was in a Herc that got struck by lightning on the way to Cyprus, we didn't turn back or try to land until we got to our destination.

This happened to me in the middle of last year a few minutes out of Frankfurt on a regular commute.

Planes are big metal objects that travel through the air, they get hit by lightnng a lot.
 
I'm a bit reluctant to belabor the airliner lightning strike discussion because my position is and has always been that it is utterly irrelevant to Apollo 12 because different risk and threat models prevail in each instance. Saying that Apollo 12 should have been recalled because an airliner might be recalled fails immediately based on a flawed analogy, even if the premise of the analogy is also false.

While they are more prevalent at lower altitudes, lightning may strike an airplane at any altitude, especially if there is nearby thunderstorm activity. Stated more plainly, the notion that one can simply turn around and fly back to the aerodrome presupposes the strike occurs during the post take-off climbout. It's a red herring. Turning back rather than setting out across the Atlantic seems prudent to the layman. However, what if one's lightning strike occurs far out to sea? What if a "quick return to base" simply isn't an option?

In fact aircraft designers plan for their aircraft to be hit by lightning. We know that it's inevitable. It's part of the expected conditions in our invention's intended operating environment. Longevity is also a concern. Air travel is useless unless it can operate safely over long distances. Both longevity and resilience to weather events are engineering requirements. That is, the designers sit down and say, "Okay, we know the airplane is going to be hit by lightning occasionally, and then must continue to operate safely in case no safe haven is nearby. What engineering and scientific principles can we bring to bear to make a plane that can safely be struck by lightning?"

In fact, so necessary is the requirement that airframes and avionics be able to withstand a lightning strike and continue flying safely, the FAA doesn't certify a design as airworthy until it has demonstrated its imperviousness to lightning.

Because Patrick1000 isn't an engineer, his layman's "common sense" is unable to grasp the notion that lightning can be an expected event just like any other factor in an engineering problem. The layman responds hysterically: "OMG lightning!!!!" The engineer responds: "Why do you think we wouldn't plan for lightning when designing a plane?" We hire engineers to think of and plan for the things we ourselves may not necessarily realize or know how to handle. That's why proper qualifications are important and why "common sense" just doesn't cut it in specialized fields.

Now flight crews are not needlessly cavalier. But frankly it takes a lot to make a modern airliner unflyable. In fact, airliners routinely leave the ground on regularly dispatched flights with one or more items "red-tagged," or marked as out of service. But certainly after a lightning strike the flight crew will check to make sure the airplane is still safely flyable. The question is not whether the pilots will divert if an actual failure is discovered, but rather what they should do when everything seems all right. Patrick1000 wants to tell us that they should land no matter what. But that's based on uninformed intuition, not on logic and facts. When a machine that's designed to be struck safely by lightning is struck by lightning, and there's no indication of failure, then you may safely conclude that the machine has done its job.

So disregard Patrick1000's hysterical handwaving. Just because he personally would be scared to continue flying a plane that's been struck by lightning, that doesn't mean this is what the industry thinks.

And that's certainly not what the Apollo 12 flight controllers thought. Once a spacecraft is in orbit, it is in a long-term stable condition. From there you can troubleshoot and make corrections without having to worry about imminent concerns. If a problem develops during the ascent, the unsafe thing to do -- but what the layman often suggests -- is a powered abort. The safe (but steely-eyed) thing to do is to hold everything together until you get to the stable state of a parking orbit. The layman is unaccustomed to thinking of being in space as a "stable" and "safe" condition. But it's far safer than playing with the enormous energies of an ascending rocket and an abortive spacecraft.

Let's be absolutely honest: something broke on Apollo 12. Regardless of what one might "usually" do, arriving in orbit with a spacecraft that suffered an observable failure means you stop and take a look to see if the ship is still flyable.

Apollo 12 was one of those situations where the symptoms seemed horrendous but the cause was actually relatively minor. The static discharge from the lightning strike simply tripped the main circuit breakers that disconnected the fuel cells from the buses. That left only the reentry batteries to supply the entire spacecraft. Normally the batteries run only a few systems during landing, but here they were being asked supply many times more current than they were designed for -- the load of the entire spacecraft under a particularly busy regime. Per the basic principles of electrical engineering, this caused a compensating drop in voltage.

Certain equipment is sensitive to voltage and requires it within a narrow range that the fuel cells can normally supply easily. When this equipment gets too little voltage -- i.e., a "brownout," it starts sending weird signals and behaving oddly. When that equipment is common to several systems such as sensor banks, it seems like the whole spacecraft has gone kablooey. The layman's "common sense" approach is to go into hysterics. But the engineer, recalling the system design, quickly narrows down the commonalities and recognizes that certain patterns of failure point to a single cause.

Once the fuel cells were back online and all the electronics were well fed with voltage, the readings went back to normal -- with the exception of a few non-critical sensors (e.g., experiment package temperature sensors) that could be done without.

This is similar to what happens when a circuit breaker trips in your house. You don't look at the non-functioning television, microwave oven, blender, refrigerator, and automatic cat litter box and think that your house has gone totally haywire. You realize that all those systems have a simple common element, and that once you fix the single point of failure, the failures that cascaded from it will be corrected.

It wasn't just a matter of resetting the spacecraft's electrical generators and confirming via telemetry that all the essential systems were working. Engineers at this point knew why they had seen what they had seen earlier in the telemetry. This is important. Engineering achieves one level of confidence when an applied action remediates a failure. But it achieves a greater level when it understands why the failure happened. Discovering the causal chain lets you know that what you're doing will solve the problem rather than just Band-Aid it.

There is the lingering matter of the parachutes. I mentioned that a few non-critical sensors were permanently damaged. But the parachutes are a critical system. And there was no sensor to determine whether the pyros had fired. Circuit continuity tests were good, but that doesn't conclusively tell you whether the ordnance fired.

But at that point, there was no mission mode of any kind -- operational or contingency -- that did not require the parachutes as a critical component. I can't stress that enough. If the parachutes were broken, there was simply no way to save the crew no matter what you did. Stated a different way, all mission modes carried exactly the same risk of death for the crew. Or stated a third way -- the condition of the parachutes can be factored out of the go/no-go decision to land on the Moon. Hence we went to the Moon on Apollo 12.

This is how engineers think. Patrick1000 is not an engineer, so his thinking is muddled with emotion. Faced with the unknown, he advocates running back down into the burrow and hiding. Not because that's the right thing to do, but because that's the knee-jerk default.

Now let's say things had been different. Let's say the tumbled IMU couldn't be recovered. (It tumbled on Apollo 12 because the brownout cause a spurious command to the gyro torque motors.) Then you don't go to the Moon. You need the primary guidance system to get there, but you can land safely from Earth orbit using only the SCS. In that case an Earth orbit contingency mission would have been appropriate.

Or let's say the fuel cell breakers wouldn't stay closed. Then you have a reason to leave orbit immediately since you need to land before the reentry batteries give out.

In any case, the flight crew and ground controllers should be making the decisions based on what is known to work, what is known not to work, and what can't be known. In professional manned space operations there is no panic mode. If you abort, it's because the data indicate that's the safest thing to do, not because it's what you do when you don't know what to do.

Far from being a slam-dunk for fraud, Apollo 12 is a perfect example of engineers and test pilots doing what they do best. And it's an example of what happens when uninformed laymen like Patrick1000 try to apply "common sense" where it doesn't belong.
 
Planes are big metal objects that travel through the air, they get hit by lightnng a lot.

Actually they cause lightning where it otherwise wouldn't occur. They are huge metal objects that provide a highly conductive target for discharges, much more so than the air that would normally be there. This is why we don't fly into clouds unless we really need to.

In Apollo 12's case, the ionized exhaust trail provided a conduction path that would otherwise not have been there. There wouldn't have necessarily been a lightning strike but for the Saturn V hurtling skyward.
 
Nowadays, planes are more or less lightning proof. That is not to say, a plane cannot get damaged, and damaged very badly by a strike, but the science of "proofing" planes for lightning, electrical discharge protection, has come so so so far since the 60s.

Actually, 1967 was the last time a plane blew up and crashed due to a lightning strike. Unlikely to happen now. But even then, as in the recent case with the Irish plane, they aren't going to let you fly around once hit by lightning. They'll land you if they can to be sure the plane is OK.

From http://www.lufthansa-technik.com/applications/portal/lhtportal/lhtportal.portal?requestednode=415&_pageLabel=Template5_6&_nfpb=true&webcacheURL=TV_I/Media-Relations-new/Background---Specials/In-Focus/Aircraft-operations/Lightning_Strike_US.xml
In such a case, the airplane acts like a lightning rod. Its metal structure provides the lowest resistance for the electrical discharge on its way between the clouds and the ground. It is not uncommon that the airplane is thereby struck by a complete series of discharges, mostly between three and five, in exceptional cases up to 25. Since an airplane in flight has no form of grounding, the lightning first enters the structure and leaves it again a split second later. The principle behind this occurrence is known by most people from physics lessons in school. The airframe acts as a so called “Faraday cage–. Like an automobile body the aluminium structure, when struck by a lightning, passes the electric energy around the interior and keeps the passengers safe. The crucial technical equipment is thereby also kept safe from the high voltage and the aircraft can, in most cases, proceed normally with its flight. But to play it safe every lightning strike is documented by the cockpit crew and the aircraft is treated with a special inspection routine on its next check. Lightning strike inspections like these are regularly carried out at Lufthansa Technik.

Why don't they state that they'll land the aircraft immediately Patrick?
Why do they say that in most cases the aircraft can proceed normally with its flight?
 
Here's some more detail on the Ranger 9 versus Apollo 11 tracking question.

In a nutshell, the argument is that if they could track Ranger 9 to lunar touchdown to a precision of 4 meters, they ought to be able to track Apollo 11 to equal or greater precision. And Patrick1000 goes on to argue that since they could have, they presumably did, and that the subsequent confusion over landing site coordinates is a sham, and evidence of fraud.

The answer, in a nutshell, is that it's an applies-to-oranges comparison. But here's why.

As I stated in my previous answer, Ranger 9 was an impactor. That's a euphemism for "cannonball." That's it. Its job was to send back as many television pictures as it could on its suicide plummet before beginning its new life as the Moon's newest impact crater.

What made its impact point so predictable? The fact that it was simply a projectile following a path through space defined only by its initial velocity and gravity. We all solved the basic ballistic cannonball problem in high school physics: an object with a certain component of upward velocity and a certain component of forward velocity; compute where it will land.

Computing Ranger's path is just a grown-up version of the same problem, with well-defined variables. After the last mid-course correction, the spacecraft cruised for an entire day prior to impact, acted upon only by the gravity of Earth and Moon. Using the restricted three-body orbital model, the path of the spacecraft could be determined very reliably. Further, observations of the Doppler shift in the spacecraft's radio frequency, taken at precisely timed intervals, gives a very accurate measurement of the spacecraft velocity. If you have time-correlated velocity measurements, you can convert those into a general mathematical description of the spacecraft's path. So at the end of the journey, the flight controllers had a very precise determination of the spacecraft's path through space.

Astronomers also had a very precise determination of the Moon's path through space, along its orbit. And they had a reasonably useful altitude map of the Moon's terrain in the region of predicted impact. So it then simply becomes a matter of simultaneously solving those systems for the intersection point in space and time. That becomes the lunar surface coordinates for impact. As a check on that computation, the Ranger's cameras were transmitting down to an altitude of about 1,000 feet. Since the orientation of the spacecraft was known, the optical axis can be correlated with observable lunar geology to further refine the estimate.

Keep in mind that controllers don't know where the Ranger hit. But they can determine how much wiggle room there is in their data and models to put an upper bound on how far off they can be and still be faithful to the data.

Obviously Apollo's flight profile is entirely different. The Apollo spacecraft entered lunar orbit and from that position executed a lengthy series of powered-flight maneuvers to deposit the spacecraft at a site ultimately of the pilot's choosing. Guidance program 63 assumes a certain orbital velocity condition which, in Apollo 11's case, was not met due to an oversight in procedures. While gravity is the predominating force in this phase, the operation of the DPS engine prevents orbital mechanics alone from determining the spacecraft path.

Guidance program 64 again considers gravity, but is closer in actual effect to the flight path of a glider. This is not to say that the LM used aerodynamics to control its flight. It rather says that while gravity dictates the overall downward path, the pilot and computer have considerable control over the path by means of the vectored thrust. More steering is done here than in P63.

Program 66 leaves the pilot some 200 feet above the ground descending at up to 12 feet per second. At this point engine maneuvers wholly dominate the solution. The pilot can elect to fly the LM anywhere within the limits of remaining fuel.

It is clear then that no predictive model can accommodate the combination of predictable gravity and unpredictable engine thrust (called "dispersions" in flight control terminology) to generate a very precise flight path. And when manual control is entered, there simply is no predictive model.

Position determination here is by dead reckoning. The effects of both gravity and engine impulses can be integrated from some initial point, but the accuracy of the final position depends on the precision and accuracy of the impulse measurements, the accuracy of the initial point, and the fidelity of the model. Errors compound in this method of reckoning, so it's certainly not something you should expect to net you a fine-grained answer. This is why we generally provide redundant guidance machinery implemented according to different methods, and let them disperse differently.

So in summary, we can predict a good landing point for a cannonball fired at a target 20 miles away. The variables are few and well defined. But we can't predict the landing point for an ultralight being flown twenty miles away in some general direction. Expecting the LM to conform to the models used for Ranger navigation is exactly identical to expecting an ultralight to behave like a cannonball.
 
MORE absolute stone cold proof of Apollo Mission Fraudulence......

As if what I have related so far were not enough...... Get a load of this!

Take a look at this Al Worden interview video. Worden was the alleged Apollo 15 Command Module Pilot.

http://www.youtube.com/user/AtGoogleTalks#p/u/3/fTpIawwJ6Qo

Go to 1 hour and seven minutes in and toward the end of that seventh minute you will hear Worden lie his rump off.

He tells us one could not make out individual stars on the back side of the moon. With the illumination of the sun lost, one could see every star in the sky, and so, could not tell one from the other. Worden could not identify according to his own account, a single one of the CRITICAL 37 Apollo Mission navigational stars.

According to Worden, everything was awash in the strange star powered brightness of the dark side firmament, and given one's not being able to discern individual stars, including the primary stars employed in Apollo Mission maneuvering and orientation, we may conclude that any star dependent determinations could never have been made, NEVER!!! made on the moon's sun-unilluminated side per Worden's whoops!!!! of a lying/erroneous account.

They could not see their way about "back there" as need be/if need be/when need be, in the cases of both the lunar modules AND the command modules.

It is all there in Al Worden's own lying his fanny off words, take a listen, this thing is stone cold fake my friends, ever so fake indeed.
 
Imagine Jay if you were flying, and 2 minutes in to the flight, on the way up, the plane gets hit by lightning. Once you get to 30K, the pilot comes on the overhead and says, "no big deal, we're heading across the Atlantic regardless, the plane checks out fine".

You have been told why this analogy is flawed, so why insist on using it? Passenger airliners are not experimental spacecraft, so please stop with the irrational "comparisons".
 
Go to 1 hour and seven minutes in and toward the end of that seventh minute you will hear Worden lie his rump off.

He tells us one could not make out individual stars on the back side of the moon. With the illumination of the sun lost, one could see every star in the sky, and so, could not tell one from the other. Worden could not identify according to his own account, a single one of the CRITICAL 37 Apollo Mission navigational stars.



Um ... you say that Worden was lying. But then you tell us what he said as though it were the truth. Do you want us to believe that Worden was lying when he said he couldn't tell which star was which (if he said that, I didn't listen)? Or do you want us to believe Worden was telling the truth about that part but lying about having ever gone to the moon?

If Worden had never gone to the moon, why would he claim that he couldn't make out individual stars? Since the lunar mission's success was, according to you, dependent on the ship being able to see navigational stars while on the dark-side of the moon, why would anyone claim they couldn't see the stars? As you say, it exposes the lie.

You cannot accept one single detail of a statement as true in order to show the entirety of the statement is false - unless, of course, you know for a fact from an independent source that the single detail was true. Do you have such a source?
 
He was not in space Loss Leader......

Um ... you say that Worden was lying. But then you tell us what he said as though it were the truth. Do you want us to believe that Worden was lying when he said he couldn't tell which star was which (if he said that, I didn't listen)? Or do you want us to believe Worden was telling the truth about that part but lying about having ever gone to the moon?

If Worden had never gone to the moon, why would he claim that he couldn't make out individual stars? Since the lunar mission's success was, according to you, dependent on the ship being able to see navigational stars while on the dark-side of the moon, why would anyone claim they couldn't see the stars? As you say, it exposes the lie.

You cannot accept one single detail of a statement as true in order to show the entirety of the statement is false - unless, of course, you know for a fact from an independent source that the single detail was true. Do you have such a source?

He was not in space at all Loss Leader, and so is very much lying.....

Think about it. The Apollo guidance computers align their platforms by way of star sightings. I believe Worden said 37 stars. What happens when they go to the dark side? The computer becomes disoriented, lost. It cannot find Rigel among 50,000 bright neighbors.

This is the most significant development in the history of Apollo fraud research.

How is it possible for the guidance computer/astronauts to find the stars among so many? They cannot.


THIS!!!!!!!!! Is the main reason they deny stars. A hypothetical PNGS can only work in an uncluttered sky. So they feign blindness, paucity of stars.

This is the revelation as regards star phobia we have all been looking for.

Apollo is fraudulent front to back, Worden is lying, because the computer is not "good enough" to spot 37 stars among thousands and thousands. And they have to be able to sight stars EVERYWHERE, even on the dark side and perhaps especially on the dark side, after LOS.

This is a HUGE find.

Thanks to my dear friend for supplying the Worden clue. The analysis however is all MINE.
 
...He tells us one could not make out individual stars on the back side of the moon. With the illumination of the sun lost, one could see every star in the sky, and so, could not tell one from the other.
I've had that experience too. Having learned my way around the constellations as a kid, the first time I found myself out in a desert at night I was lost in an ocean of stars. It took me quite a while to come to terms with the new task of finding the principal stars when there were so many unfamiliar low magnitude stars distracting me.

And I'm not lying either.
 
As if what I have related so far were not enough...... Get a load of this!

Of course what you've related so far is not enough. It's been thoroughly refuted and you have no answer.

You've made a big stink about Apollo 12 and lightning, and all you can do to answer your critics is post the same hogwash unmitigated.

You made a big stink about Ranger 9, and now it passes in silence because it backfired and revealed how little you actually know about spacecraft tracking.

So like the typical conspiracy theorist, you frantically open a new subject, hoping it will freshen what is really a long, decayed trail of failed arguments. And fewer and fewer people follow you because it's clear you'll be refuted once again, but you'll just ignore it and change the subject again.

MSFN? Apollo 12? Ranger? Will we ever see you touch those subjects again? Instead you're fleeing like a TV criminal, throwing any old argument in the path of your pursuers hoping that it will slow them down just a little.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom