Origin of the paint that was found as red-gray chips - any ideas?

[GlennB]

Well, one more reply after all.

It is very fitting that you, knowing my personal situation, expect to find amusement in my post on the subject of Menschlichkeit.

Dave and Ivan know too.

They are perfektly able now to judge your and my Menschlichkeit.

Have a good life.

Oh. As one who knows a little German and the background to that word, and its derivatives, you have my sympathy. If the forum were conducted entirely in English then MM would be on very shaky ground now.

eta: I suspect MM is aiming for "suicide by mod" in order to escape from the hole he has dug while retaining - in his terms anyway - a little dignity.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

Does this approach make more sense from the standpoint of simplicity?

Another variation on this: look for just one thing at a time, such as elemental aluminum. If the results DISPROVE thermite, stop there. If they show a possibility of thermite, move on to a second test.

Thinking more on this issue ............even a negative test will not satisfy the twoofers. They will simply say that it WAS thermite but time and enviromental conditions have rendered it inactive. All the elemental AL has oxidized and thats why it won't ignite. They then say it was still active when Jones tested it but now its too late for further testing........

The stupid is unstoppable....

 

[Miragememories]

Does this approach make more sense from the standpoint of simplicity?

Another variation on this: look for just one thing at a time, such as elemental aluminum. If the results DISPROVE thermite, stop there. If they show a possibility of thermite, move on to a second test.

Thinking more on this issue ............even a negative test will not satisfy the twoofers. They will simply say that it WAS thermite but time and enviromental conditions have rendered it inactive. All the elemental AL has oxidized and thats why it won't ignite. They then say it was still active when Jones tested it but now its too late for further testing........

The stupid is unstoppable....

Or an even more likely scenario;

Thinking more on this issue ............even a positive test will not satisfy the Official Story adherents. They will simply say that it WASN'T thermite but time and enviromental conditions have rendered it active. Some elemental AL has somehow formed naturally in some of the dust debris and thats why it ignites. They then will say it was still inactive or a freak sample when Jones tested it but now its too late for unadulterated testing........

Religious faith is unstoppable....:

MM

 

[Dog Town]

Religious faith is unstoppable....:

MM

Lucky for us skeptics, that ain't true!

Does Polly want a cracker?

 

[NoahFence]

Or an even more likely scenario;

Thinking more on this issue ............even a positive test will not satisfy the Official Story adherents. They will simply say that it WASN'T thermite but time and enviromental conditions have rendered it active. Some elemental AL has somehow formed naturally in some of the dust debris and thats why it ignites. They then will say it was still inactive or a freak sample when Jones tested it but now its too late for unadulterated testing........

Religious faith is unstoppable....:

MM

We say it wasn't thermite even without tests.

In the real world, which you've apparently only heard of in stories, we call it "common sense".

There was no controlled demolition in any of the buildings. Not in WTC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, the Greek Orthodox church, the Pentagon, etc...etc..etc....

This is a proven FACT.

You do remember the Pentagon, don't you? Shanksville?
No?

 

[Oystein]

Thinking more on this issue ............even a negative test will not satisfy the twoofers. They will simply say that it WAS thermite but time and enviromental conditions have rendered it inactive. All the elemental AL has oxidized and thats why it won't ignite. They then say it was still active when Jones tested it but now its too late for further testing........

The stupid is unstoppable....

Well, luckily, all the Al in these chips (a-d), is NOT oxidized. Instead, it is silicated and has formed a mineral. Something that happens in rock formations, nit so much in dust samples in plastic bags.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Thinking more on this issue ............even a positive test will not satisfy the Official Story adherents. They will simply say that it WASN'T thermite but time and enviromental conditions have rendered it active. Some elemental AL has somehow formed naturally in some of the dust debris and thats why it ignites. They then will say it was still inactive or a freak sample when Jones tested it but now its too late for unadulterated testing........

That's why it's probably a good idea for those of us who believe in reality to specify what results might be considered significant, and would indicate what conclusions. I've made the effort to do so.

Of course, it would be much easier for truthers to back away from a negative result. It's highly unlikely that aluminium oxide would be spontaneously reduced in the dust samples [1], but quite feasible that it might have spontaneously oxidised over the ten years they've been sitting around since 9/11. So all the truthers need to say is that there was thermite in the samples, but it's now degraded to the point that it's ineffective, and they have a nice shiny unfalsifiable hypothesis to pray to. I'm sure I can guess who'll be one of the first to claim that.

Dave

[1] Can one of our resident chemists explain what "reduced" means when MM makes some ridiculous post based on a complete misunderstanding? I just don't have the energy any more.

 

[Miragememories]

"Thinking more on this issue ............even a negative test will not satisfy the twoofers. They will simply say that it WAS thermite but time and enviromental conditions have rendered it inactive. All the elemental AL has oxidized and thats why it won't ignite. They then say it was still active when Jones tested it but now its too late for further testing........

The stupid is unstoppable...."

"Or an even more likely scenario;

Thinking more on this issue ............even a positive test will not satisfy the Official Story adherents. They will simply say that it WASN'T thermite but time and enviromental conditions have rendered it active. Some elemental AL has somehow formed naturally in some of the dust debris and thats why it ignites. They then will say it was still inactive or a freak sample when Jones tested it but now its too late for unadulterated testing........

Religious faith is unstoppable....:"

"We say it wasn't thermite even without tests.

In the real world, which you've apparently only heard of in stories, we call it "common sense".

There was no controlled demolition in any of the buildings. Not in WTC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, the Greek Orthodox church, the Pentagon, etc...etc..etc....

This is a proven FACT.

You do remember the Pentagon, don't you? Shanksville?
No?"

bolding is mine

I knew I could count on you to prove my point.

MM

 

[chrismohr]

Any scientist/chemist willing to partner with me so we can attempt to move forward with developing a proposal of how to move forward with some kind of sound protocol on the dust tests?

 

[NoahFence]

bolding is mine

I knew I could count on you to prove my point.

MM

And you saying that proves mine.

Without testing for thermite, we know for a fact that there was no thermite present. How? Common sense. That's how.

Nobody tested for RDX-laced carpet fibers, either. Nobody tested for DEW residue, or SABOT rounds, either.

Remember, MM. We live in two different worlds - mine is called reality, yours is called fantasy.

Fire took down the buildings. Period.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

Or an even more likely scenario;

Thinking more on this issue ............even a positive test will not satisfy the Official Story adherents. They will simply say that it WASN'T thermite but time and enviromental conditions have rendered it active.

No I would simply say its likely an unexpected characteristic of some types of paint, then test some paint and find same results.

Some elemental AL has somehow formed naturally in some of the dust debris and thats why it ignites.

Wouldn't say that because thats not possible. Al is too active an element
unlike twoofers I don't make up lies to keep my theories alive.

They then will say it was still inactive or a freak sample when Jones tested it but now its too late for unadulterated testing........

Jones never carried out tests in any meaningful scientific meaning of the word. he has no credible chain of evidence, no personal credibility and poor methodology. There is no evidence that its thermite so any future test is the first.

Religious faith is unstoppable....:

No its not. In my home country religion has all but faded away. Time and education takes care of that.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

bolding is mine

I knew I could count on you to prove my point.

MM

so can you say it wasn't Gorgonzola cheese without testing? Gold dust? Spaghetti?, Unobtainium? Pixie dust? pepper?, salt?, paint? Latex? Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene? titanium oxide, Lysergic acid diethylamide, Arsenic, lead

Jones pathetic paper indicates it wasn't thermite. too much energy was released and nothing indicates it was, so yes I know it was not thermite.

 

[Liberty]

If you image-google "kaolinite micrograph", you get more results like this, for example

Yes this is not a secret, but it is very rare that paints contrain nanozised al particles, when we know more about the al in the chips, we will know exactly how rare, you might be right.

I will read your reply more carefully later.

Any scientist/chemist willing to partner with me so we can attempt to move forward with developing a proposal of how to move forward with some kind of sound protocol on the dust tests?

I think you should team up with The Almond, if he's up for it.

 

[Oystein]

Yes this is not a secret, but it is very rare that paints contrain nanozised al particles, when we know more about the al in the chips, we will know exactly how rare, you might be right.
...

You still don't get it



There are no nano-sized Al particles anywhere in chips a-d.

If you think differently, please give reasons by using and interpreting the data in the Bentham paper! Please do NOT use the MEK-soaked chip, as that is clearly a different material! You say there are nano-sized Al-particles. Apparently you see them in any of the micrographs such that you can assess their size. Please reproduce the micrograph from the Bentham paper that you use to measure the size of any particles that you think are Al, and circle them or point at them with an arrow!

Alternatively, please admit that you know of no such nano-sized Al-particles, and stop this line of argument!

Please note that you ought NOT point out the kaolinite particles (platelets, often stacked), as these are NOT Al-particles. They are Al-silicate crytsals, and as you have seenm appear in chips a-d in sizes very typical for natural deposits. Such kaolinite is very usual in paint! Please acknowledge the information in this paragraph indicate clearly if you have understood it and agree!

 

[Liberty]

There are no nano-sized Al particles anywhere in chips a-d.

It was some time ago i read the report, you mean that they have not published any data on the actual size of the al particles in samlples a-d, correct?.

 

[Ivan Kminek]

Liberty: You should simply read the Bentham paper again and more carefully.
For your convenience, here are quotes from the paper, as regards those platelets in chips (a) to (d):
"These bright particles (iron oxide, I.K.) are seen intermixed with plate-like particles that have intermediate BSE intensity and are approximately 40 nm thick and up to about 1 micron across... The plate-like particles with intermediate BSE intensity appear to be associated with the regions of high Al and Si. The O map (d) also indicates oxygen present, to a lesser degree, in the location of the Al and Si. However, it is inconclusive from these data whether the O is associated with Si or Al or both."
As you can see, there is no mention about elemental Al even in the Bentham paper itself. All it is written there (concerning chips a to d, since MEK chip was clearly different material) is basically consistent with some aluminosilicate and, moreover, those platelets look exactly like kaolinite in such magnification.

Btw, yesterday, in my private message to Chrismohr, I again suggested the FTIR microscopy as the most suitable/cheapest method for us and I recommended services of companies like this one: http://www.camaonline.net/index_files/services.htm .

This company is specialized on the analysis of paints.
Some citations from the web:

"FTIR spectroscopy combined with microscopy allows analysis of small particles down to 10 um. The ability to analyze these subvisual size samples allows materials such as paint media to be analyzed without removing a noticeable amount of material. FTIR is particularly well suited for analysis of materials that have distinctive functional groups including esters, carboxylic acids, amides, proteins, alcohols, and carbohydrates. This means FTIR is a very capable technique for medium identification, polymer analysis, and coatings characterizations."

"FTIR Microscopy Applications
·Fast accurate analysis of paint media
·Identification of dyes and pigments
·Identification of fibers
·Characterization of coatings and polymeric materials"

Quite clearly, this is a method of first choice for us, since it can characterize/analyse individual paint (or nanot...e) chips.
(Laclede paint chips could be distinguished from Tnemec paint chips using characteristic infrared bands of epoxy and alkyd/linseed based resins, which were the binders used in Laclede and Tnemec primers.)

 

[Oystein]

It was some time ago i read the report, you mean that they have not published any data on the actual size of the al particles in samlples a-d, correct?.

There are no Al-particles in samples a-d. Period. Not nano-sized. Not anything-sized.

Get it?

No aluminium particles!
Just aluminium silicate particles!

Get the difference?

Please stop wasting out time and cluttering up this thread by posting uninformed questions and claims! Read the *********** thread, and read the *********** paper!

Sorry for my going ballistic here, but I some days I have little tolerance for ignorance.

 

[leftysergeant]

Or an even more likely scenario;

Thinking more on this issue ............even a positive test will not satisfy the Official Story adherents. They will simply say that it WASN'T thermite but time and enviromental conditions have rendered it active. Some elemental AL has somehow formed naturally in some of the dust debris and thats why it ignites.

We do not invent scientific principles to suit our own neds. Anybody with an adequate education to take part in this discussion knows that aluminum compounds can only be reduced at horrendous temperatures by electrolysis or in a flux of seriously rare metals.

Now, while we are waiting for saomeone to provide the test material, suppose you tell us why none of the clown crew have shown us any of the one material that could prove that this crap is thermite. Where's the alumina, dude?

 

[Liberty]

Liberty: You should simply read the Bentham paper again and more carefully.
For your convenience, here are quotes from the paper, as regards those platelets in chips (a) to (d):
"These bright particles (iron oxide, I.K.) are seen intermixed with plate-like particles that have intermediate BSE intensity and are approximately 40 nm thick and up to about 1 micron across... The plate-like particles with intermediate BSE intensity appear to be associated with the regions of high Al and Si. The O map (d) also indicates oxygen present, to a lesser degree, in the location of the Al and Si. However, it is inconclusive from these data whether the O is associated with Si or Al or both."
As you can see, there is no mention about elemental Al even in the Bentham paper itself. All it is written there (concerning chips a to d, since MEK chip was clearly different material) is basically consistent with some aluminosilicate and, moreover, those platelets look exactly like kaolinite in such magnification.

Btw, yesterday, in my private message to Chrismohr, I again suggested the FTIR microscopy as the most suitable/cheapest method for us and I recommended services of companies like this one:

This company is specialized on the analysis of paints.
Some citations from the

"FTIR spectroscopy combined with microscopy allows analysis of small particles down to 10 um. The ability to analyze these subvisual size samples allows materials such as paint media to be analyzed without removing a noticeable amount of material. FTIR is particularly well suited for analysis of materials that have distinctive functional groups including esters, carboxylic acids, amides, proteins, alcohols, and carbohydrates. This means FTIR is a very capable technique for medium identification, polymer analysis, and coatings characterizations."

"FTIR Microscopy Applications
·Fast accurate analysis of paint media
·Identification of dyes and pigments
·Identification of fibers
·Characterization of coatings and polymeric materials"

Quite clearly, this is a method of first choice for us, since it can characterize/analyse individual paint (or nanot...e) chips.
(Laclede paint chips could be distinguished from Tnemec paint chips using characteristic infrared bands of epoxy and alkyd/linseed based resins, which were the binders used in Laclede and Tnemec primers.)

Then i did remember it correctly regarding the nanoparticles. Only strong proof and further testing, will convince me of exactly what this material is, until then i will not speculate.

EBSD/SIMS and FTIR analysis would be great. Hope to see some results soon!

 

[Oystein]

Then i did remember it correctly regarding the nanoparticles. Only strong proof and further testing, will convince me of exactly what this material is, until then i will not speculate.
...

You did speculate mightily when you talked about Al nano-particles, of which there is not just no strong proof but precisely zero proof. In fact, we have very good proof that there is no (elemental) Al in there, and only Al-silicate. To remind you:
- Micrographs show the distinct stacks of hexagonal platelets exactly in the size typical for kaolinite
- Kaolinite is an Al-silicate whose sum formula contains equal numbers of Al and Si atoms
- XEDS graphs show that Al and Si are present in identical molar amounts
- BSE maps show Al and Si are present in the exact same regions, suggesting they are chemically bound with each other
- Comparison of BSE map and micrograph shows Al and Si concentrated in regions where there are the platelet stack - a reasonable match at least.
- micrographs show no other particles rich in Al, as mapped by the BSE, suggesting that there is no free Al in chips a-d

Please read the Bentham paper and take diligent note that Harrit and co. are speculating all over the place! If you don't like speculation, then don't buy their conclusions, ok?