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Wholly Natrualistic Alternative To Neo-Darwinism?

ID is worth studying because its proponents have a good handle on the informational angle.

If torturing Claude Shannon's seminal paper and definitions of information to speak for creationism while ignoring many clear examples of evolution increasing information (eg. nylonase) is having a handle then sure they do.
 
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ID is worth studying because its proponents have a good handle on the informational angle.
Has the thread become too hot for you since you want to divert it towards a discussion of ID instead of addressing the arguments of Dinwar et al?

Why have you ignored Dinwar's reference to Jack Horner who is supposed to have a good handle on the evolution of birds from dinosaurs? Is it because you cannot find he has been ignored also on creationist web sites?
 
Has the thread become too hot for you since you want to divert it towards a discussion of ID instead of addressing the arguments of Dinwar et al?

Why have you ignored Dinwar's reference to Jack Horner who is supposed to have a good handle on the evolution of birds from dinosaurs? Is it because you cannot find he has been ignored also on creationist web sites?

Alright. I'm going to lift a review of the mentioned "Darwin on Trial" wholesale from Amazon.

Count the similarities between this and Patrick1000's arguments.

The Grand Metaphysical Story of Evolution, November 8, 2009
By
Randy A. Stadt (Edmonton, Canada) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
This review is from: Darwin on Trial (Paperback)
In a culture that supposedly places a high value on open-mindedness and healthy criticism, evolution has somehow been a sacred cow, beyond the reach of serious analysis. Dissent has been effectively marginalized through the use of a caricature which assures us that all educated people recognize that evolution is a fact, even if there are in-house disagreements about the details. We are told that the only dissenters are Biblical fundamentalists who insist on a narrow, literal reading of Genesis and therefore come to the preposterous conclusion that the earth is only six thousand years old. But reasonable people of faith will find that their theism is not threatened by the theory of evolution.

Phillip Johnson argues that this caricature is grossly misleading and false. Evolution is a fact only if one starts with a prior commitment to materialism, the belief that the physical world is all there is. With materialism as the starting point, some form of evolution must be true; there is nothing else to explain the origin and history of life. Though the primary claim of the theory of evolution is the blind watchmaker thesis, that an unguided, purposeless process of mutation and natural selection is the means by which the complexity of life arose, it is not necessary (we are told) to be too precise when speaking of just what evolution is. Evolution can mean "changes in gene frequencies in a population," and so dog breeding, for example, is evolution, as is variations from year to year in the average size of finch beaks in a population of finches. Or evolution can mean "relationship." All living things are made of the same biochemical stuff, and that is a relationship we call an evolutionary relationship - that's evolution.

Evolution is just a thing to be believed, and to accept one part of it is to accept the whole package. It is a matter of logical deduction, if one starts with the premise that materialism is true. And it is here that Johnson puts his finger on the central locus of the debate over evolution. Evolutionary science is operating by two definitions of science - science as empirical research but also science as applied materialism. Everyone is candid about the first definition, but almost noone will admit to the second, which is actually the more important of the two. This becomes evident when a scientist, doing empirical research, comes to conclusions that don't conform to materialistic philosophy. Then the second definition trumps the first, and the practitioner is said to no longer be doing science.

What is at stake here, then, is a commitment to materialism. Discussion of evidence is important, but in a sense it is secondary, because all the evidentiary problems are not troubling to Darwinists who see everything through the glasses of materialism. But take away that prior commitment and it becomes a legitimate question to ask: if we don't know how evolution happened, how can we know that it happened? When a scientist like Niles Eldredge can on the one hand say, that based on his empirical observations, evolution "never seems to happen" but nevertheless refers to himself as a "knee-jerk Darwinist," this suggests a willingness to believe in spite of the evidence. His confidence in evolution appears to reside less in his findings as a paleontologist and more in his philosophical commitment.

Regarding the second aspect of the caricature, Johnson believes that it is just so much double talk for promoters of evolution to say that evolutionary science has nothing to say about religion, when in fact it is loaded with anti-theological implications. Darwin's theory was successful primarily because it gave to biology a mechanism - descent with modification - that seemed to get rid of the need for a creator. But in so doing, not only was the creator banished from biology, he was effectively banished from reality. Thus if God exists at all, he is more like Aristotle's First Cause than the God of the Bible. Such a being is thoroughly inscrutable, utterly irrelevant, and certainly not worthy of worship. So if science has nothing to say about religion it's because science also has nothing to say about Zeus. It is not that we gain knowledge from science and knowledge from religion, but rather it is understood that knowledge comes exclusively from science, whereas religion gives us meaning and morality, which do not constitute knowledge but merely subjective belief.

With this in view, Johnson doesn't see theistic evolution as a viable solution to the evolution/creation controversy. First of all if it is genuinely theistic, if God did anything, then it's not evolution as the scientific community defines the term. It's not purposeless and unguided. And if it is purposeless and unguided, then it is not in any meaningful way theistic. It seems that theistic evolution is convincing for Christians only if they are vague about the definitions and are convinced that naturalistic philosophy is only an unnecessary addition to an otherwise sound theory. If, however, Johnson is right, and on its own merits the mutation-natural selection mechanism is inadequate to explain the history of life, then why would we want to reconcile our theology with a theory that is false?

Having said all this, Johnson isn't discounting a naturalistic theory of evolution out of hand. He is willing to hear evidence that mutation and selection, or any other naturalistic mechanism, can do the job of creation. But he's not willing to assume that it's the only possibility. Currently it's a closed system: if materialism is true, Darwinism is true, and it doesn't matter what the evidence is. But if you're willing to put the materialism in doubt, then the evidence really appears to be inadequate.

Just getting the issue of materialism on the table of mainstream academic discourse is the hard part. Once that happens and the scientific culture is reoriented towards the truth instead of towards materialism, Johnson is confident that the scientific story will change dramatically.

ETA: Anyone want to take bets that the rest can be found in that book?
 
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I think Dinwar and I are fine.....

Has the thread become too hot for you since you want to divert it towards a discussion of ID instead of addressing the arguments of Dinwar et al?

Why have you ignored Dinwar's reference to Jack Horner who is supposed to have a good handle on the evolution of birds from dinosaurs? Is it because you cannot find he has been ignored also on creationist web sites?

I think Dinwar and I are fine.....I won't be discussing ID per se, just some points with regard to Stephen Meyer's recent book, its criticisms, Meyer's response to the criticism and the context/validity of those criticisms. Meyers book is an extremely important piece of work with regard to evolutionary biology generally. This is outside of any ID interpretation. Such is the case because of Meyer's thorough review of evolutionary biology generally. It is Meyer's "raw data" that I will be concerned with. Not being an ID type myself, I will interpret it differently. This is a long ways off.

I suggested to Dinwar that I'd like to present some mainstream points of debate first in order to show that what we are doing here is very much a part of what goes on in the present day biologic research community, something that goes on regular basis wise. Lots of high level biologists say the same sorts of things I am saying here, and they are responded to in various ways in the relevant scientific literature. Evolutionary mechanism is a hot topic, and it should be as anything would be that is this interesting and so poorly understood.
 
Has the thread become too hot for you since you want to divert it towards a discussion of ID instead of addressing the arguments of Dinwar et al?

Why have you ignored Dinwar's reference to Jack Horner who is supposed to have a good handle on the evolution of birds from dinosaurs? Is it because you cannot find he has been ignored also on creationist web sites?


My apologies. I got P1K started on the ID thing. But he certainly has some explaining to do on at least one front and his version of ID can wait.
 
Lots of high level biologists say the same sorts of things I am saying here, and they are responded to in various ways in the relevant scientific literature. Evolutionary mechanism is a hot topic, and it should be as anything would be that is this interesting and so poorly understood.

Sounds like an informative discussion but is it a pipe dream in this thread? Until you can get beyond your arguments of personal incredulity as embodied in the balloon analogy, we aren't going to see such a discussion, are we.
 
I'm late to this thread, which maybe gives me a small advantage in viewing it "from a distance".

Observations...

1) On the one hand, it seems as though the entire thread is a colossal waste of time. Patrick1000 is arguing almost exclusively from the "argument from ignorance" or "argument from personal incredulity". He seems immune from what seem to me to be very well reasoned answers to each and every one of his questions/claims. So, it is apparent that no level of discourse will inform him or get him to change his position.

2) Still, threads like this help us hone our reasoning and debating skills - to that extent it may have some value. And a reader who is genuinely "on the fence" will find a lot of meat.

3) The "dog becoming hippo" analogy/thought experiment is absurd. Dogs and hippos had a common ancestor that may have been more dog-like, or more hippo-like, or something in between or something completely different. How about "wolf becoming dog" or "fox becoming dog"? Around these parts we're constantly seeing "dog-like" animals, and from a distance its hard to tell if its a dog or some other closely related species. For instance, here's one at our compost pile:

6325005079_7096b43f6c_z.jpg


4) Re: dogs and hippos having a common ancestor - Patrick1000 claims to have read Dawkins. I think I've read most if not all of Dawkins' books on evolution - I just got "The Greatest Show On Earth" from a used book store* and its next up on my reading list. In particular, there's "The Ancestor's Tale". In my mind, one of the best books on evolution and how literally everything (genetics, morphology, paleontology, etc.) all point in the same direction - common lineage of all life forms. Without invoking "magic" or "God" or a "designer".

5) On some level I empathize with Patrick1000. I mean how does a toad evolve that can mix chemicals together and shoot them in a now-caustic stream at prey. But evolve it did, and just because we may or may not understand how does not affect the fact that it did. From Wikipedia: "Evolution is cleverer than you are." Orgel's Second Rule is intended as a rejoinder to the argument by lack of imagination. With the mountain of evidence (that Patrick1000 is apparently blind to), I hold my own "personal incredulity" at bay and accept evolutionary theory as currently understood. Patrick1000 apparently can't. And never the twain shall meet.

Anyway, just my caffeine-induced ponderings of the topics covered here. I will not address Patrick1000 directly, since I've determined he/she is either a troll or as I said is effectively immune from argument anyway. But the dialog, while frustrating, is still of interest to me, so I'll follow along for just a while longer.



*if you're ever in the Knoxville or Chattanooga TN areas, check out Mackay's used books. Great place that will take in used books and give you credit towards a huge selection of used books, CD's, DVD's and games. Highly recommended.
 
So assuming I am way off target here......, you could get me to pack up my tent and go away if you presented some evidence. I'll make it easy for you. You don't even have to show me how a lizard becomes a bird. Present some evidence, real evidence, that supports the claim mutation/meiosis/crossing over/fertilization/loss/doubling/transposition can turn a "cold blooded" animal like a lizard into a warm blooded animal with a thermoregulatory system.

Show us all the evidence that this occurs by way of the conventionally presented evolutionary mechanism. I won't write a single further post here on this subject if you can do that.

This shows that you lack in general knowledge of evolutionary biology, who said that warm blooded creatures evolved from lizards?

I suppose you think that the therapsids were lizards?

Are you sure that is what the 'generic strawman of an evolutionary biologist' actually stated?

More interesting question to ask is why does it look like plants and animals may have come from fungi?
 
Same offer to you not_so_new as I just gave to AdMan.....

Present concrete evidence here, it need not even need be remotely full proof, just reasonably plausible on some level, for cold blooded to warm blooded with a thermoregulatory mechanism by way of mutation/meiosis/crossing over/fertilization/loss/doubling/transposition.

Lets see, how exactly would that work?

How about instead that is shown that there are traits which would indicate non-directed retention of traits?

Since that is the hang up you have, there is lots of evidence for the retention of seemingly random traits.

But I suppose you don't even understand your own argument.

There is again no direct forensic chain that explains that mutations led to certain traits, there is however evidence that the traits as passed on are a mish mash of seemingly random events and then retention through natural selection.
 
Give it a shot, you might become famous....., "the man who shut Patrick1000 up" by demonstrating the conventional evolutionary mechanism can explain why a bird's blood runs hot.

Wow, so instead of arguments you resort to appeals to emotion. This does remind me of something...

How do you know that a birds ancestors weren't warm blooded. Please explain the evidence for that?
 
Fast Eddie. very cool article/paper, thanks for that.....

Not that it will make one whit of difference, but...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1328175

Fast Eddie, very cool article/paper, thanks for that.....If you look a little at the "details" here, the thread's focus is on evolutionary mechanism primarily, though your article is somewhat relevant in that it alludes to the phenotypic steps taken.

My general challenge has been that mutation/meiosis/crossing over/fertilization/loss/doubling/transposition do not collectively have the requisite creative power to affect the cold to warm blooded phenotypic change presented in your reference article.
 
Fast Eddie, very cool article/paper, thanks for that.....If you look a little at the "details" here, the thread's focus is on evolutionary mechanism primarily, though your article is somewhat relevant in that it alludes to the phenotypic steps taken.

My general challenge has been that mutation/meiosis/crossing over/fertilization/loss/doubling/transposition do not collectively have the requisite creative power to affect the cold to warm blooded phenotypic change presented in your reference article.

So why does mutation and "environmental" selection lead to the emergence of "creative" solutions in evolutionary computing models?
 
No, ID reasearchers emphasize that living systems are informationally based.....

Bill Gates thinks biologic code is "just like computer code only much more complicated".

ID enthuisiasts understand this better than most, and so looking at their point of view is a good place to start when one wants to show evolution as a process of informational change.

As I move forward in this thread, I'll give excellent example of this.

ID is worth studying because its proponents have a good handle on the informational angle.


And? ID has been shown to be a dead end so clearly you missed my point which is that your pet woo is also a dead end.

Now back to that Nobel Prize you're looking at getting for proving evolution is bunk...
 
If ID is a dead end then 175 million Americans are wrong about their world view....

And? ID has been shown to be a dead end so clearly you missed my point which is that your pet woo is also a dead end.

Now back to that Nobel Prize you're looking at getting for proving evolution is bunk...

If ID is a dead end then 175,000,000 are wrong about their world view....

Can you be so sure that it is a dead end Krikkiter? The majority of adult Americans(at the very least, 75%) say you are wrong. The majority of adult Americans believe they were created in the image and likeness of God, created with fabulous attention to every detail, with exacting purpose, with nothing less than LOVE!

Are you sure they are wrong, and if so, how is it that you know they are mistaken in this world view of their's?
 
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If you are asking me why computing models are not good for this sort of thing...

So why does mutation and "environmental" selection lead to the emergence of "creative" solutions in evolutionary computing models?

If you are asking me why computing models are not good for this sort of thing...I would tell you that someone programmed the computer, and for the most part, that is "cheating".

Not in every case of course. One might envision loading a string of base pairs into a memory and letting some random generating function rip for 20,000,000 years give or take. But I don't think you'd get much out of that.

I am not sure if this was/is your question Sideroxylon, so please ask it again if I am off base here.
 
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I think Dinwar and I are fine....
Sure, you just ignore his arguments and prefers to answer minor points or discuss something entirely new, such as ID, or find a book that agrees with you: anything but dealing with Dinwar or reading Jack Horner. No wonder Dinwar sometimes think you have him on ignore!

I suggested to Dinwar that I'd like to present some mainstream points of debate first in order to show that what we are doing here is very much a part of what goes on in the present day biologic research community, something that goes on regular basis wise.
How can you know what going on in the present day biologic research community when you completely ignore the leading edge research that Dinwar points you to?

Lots of high level biologists say the same sorts of things I am saying here, and they are responded to in various ways in the relevant scientific literature.
You are hiding behind others rather than addressing the points that have been given to you directly in this thread.
 
If you are asking me why computing models are not good for this sort of thing...I would tell you that someone programmed the computer, and for the most part, that is "cheating".
No, why?

Of course someone programmed the computer. Presumably it was programmed to reflect the evolution as we understand it. The simulation may not coincide with real biology, but it can show if the rules that we understand can lead to the correct results. That is not cheating, it is evidence. It would only be cheating if the programming was based on other rules than the ones of evolution. Are you claiming that the programmers are dishonest?

Not in every case of course. One might envision loading a string of base pairs into a memory and letting some random generating function rip for 20,000,000 years give or take. But I don't think you'd get much out of that.
You forgot selection - again!
 
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If ID is a dead end then 175,000,000 are wrong about their world view....

Can you be so sure that it is a dead end Krikkiter? The majority of adult Americans(at the very least, 75%) say you are wrong. The majority of adult Americans believe they were created in the image and likeness of God, created with fabulous attention to every detail, with exacting purpose, with nothing less than LOVE!


If you are, as you claim, an atheist then they say you are wrong as well.
 
If you are asking me why computing models are not good for this sort of thing...I would tell you that someone programmed the computer, and for the most part, that is "cheating".

Not in every case of course. One might envision loading a string of base pairs into a memory and letting some random generating function rip for 20,000,000 years give or take. But I don't think you'd get much out of that.

I am not sure if this was/is your question Sideroxylon, so please ask it again if I am off base here.

In the way of criticism I was rather hoping for a more concise criticism of important distinctions between computer models of biological evolution like that of Karl Sims, or indeed evolutionary computational models that can be used to find engineering solutions like this example.

The computers are of course programed but not in a way that many people might find intuitively the best way to achieve the end result that we see. Consider one of those walking or swimming creatures in the Karl Sims video on YouTube. You might think the best and perhaps only way to achieve the result would be to program the moves in their entirety into the system as well as perhaps some scripted reactions to given stimuli.

But that is not what is happening here. I am far from an expert on this field and look for correction to any errors that I may make but my understanding is this: The creatures begin in the first generation by making random movements based on a population of algorithms that include variation. We see little more than random flailing and twitching at this point. The programer then sets a measure of success that is applied as a selective criteria on the population. For example if we want to create walkers or swimmers, our selection criteria might be distance traveled from the starting point in a given time. Those that traveled furthest are selected for the second generation and minor mutations are applied to the algorithms prior to round two. Following the rinse and repeat over a number of generations and we get surprising complex and often unexpected behavior emerging.
 
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