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The Great Internet Conspiracy: Truth Movement Retrospective

Linking people, like breivik to truthers. Jet another fail from the debunkers to try to denigrate the truth movement.

There is nothing weaker than that.

The link is obvious. They HATE the government. Actually the truthers hate the government more, and have more delusions. They usually believe the government want to kill 90 % of us, is poisoning us, making us Gay and so on. Breiviks ideology is a lot more "logic" and not even close when it comes to paranoia and believing how evil the government is..
 
The link is obvious. They HATE the government. Actually the truthers hate the government more, and have more delusions. They usually believe the government want to kill 90 % of us, is poisoning us, making us Gay and so on. Breiviks ideology is a lot more "logic" and not even close when it comes to paranoia and believing how evil the government is..

And the debunkers love to eat popcorn with ketchup. Thats a horrible thing!!!

So i demand all the debunkers to stop eating popcorn with ketchup.

And i also demand to stop murdering people. To stop listening to classic music.

Should i make a list for the debunkers?
 
"...With this investigation complete, and following my own advice, I am now clearing my Ignore list once and for all."

Unlike yourself, I never felt that using the JREF ignore function was of much value.

Instead of blinding myself to the thoughtless remarks of those who have no respect for the sincere opinions of others, I made the decision to not ignore the many mudslingers here.

Of course it makes little sense to offer any meaningful dialogue with folks who are so busy throwing Official Story dogma, that they never stop and listen.

MM
 
A very interesting and insightful retrospective, R.Mackey.

For now I'm only going to address the final prescriptive section, pending re-reading of the whole document and some more of its references. The basic ideas that arguing with Truthers is a waste of time; or more than that, counterproductive; is of course one that crops up here fairly regularly. I have not participated much myself in that facet of the discussion, not because I haven't had an opinion about it but because my moderator role makes it too easy to misconstrue any comment I make on that topic as an overture toward closing the subforum or other board administrative action (which, to my knowledge, has not been and is not being contemplated).

I do recall some years ago, well into the movement's evident decline, calling the forum the "Truth Movement Attention Soup Kitchen." That was occasioned by an unusually self-aware (and apparently, consequently, short-lived) Truther asking what he had gained by coming here and not being convinced by skeptics' arguments. The obvious answer being, nothing of value, in keeping with the precisely zero effort the achievement had required.

Of possibly more relevance is my notion, two years ago, that asking Truthers questions (whether straightforward, rhetorical, sarcastic, Socratic, or otherwise) is almost without exception a tactical error.

What discredits the Truthers is the facts. Anything that distracts from that just helps keep them going.

[...]

You're not censoring anyone by not asking. If they had actual evidence they'd present it, with no questioning or prompting or begging required.


The discussion that followed was interesting, and a bit strange. Some immediately agreed. Some posters tried out question-free responses (and successfully crafting excellent ones) for a post or two, and then opined that it cramped their style too much. Others completely redirected the discussion on the seeming misunderstanding that my point had been about civility, rather than about effective tactics. (Again, at the time I thought it might be my mod status getting in the way, distorting perception, but it's likely more subtle factors were involved.)

In any event, I put my own prescription into practice at the time, and in the two years since then I've rarely addressed questions to Truthers in the course of discussion in this subforum. That has had most of the same benefits as "retiring" from 9/11 conspiracy theory discussion as others have done, while still permitting me to participate and respond in the rare instances it appears worthwhile. When I do ask a question it's because a Truther has actually succeeded in arousing my curiosity about something. (Not that I have much hope of eliciting a useful answer, but every once in a while the question is at least deserved.) The net effect has been to ramp down my own participation here.

Therefore I now suggest the question-free approach as not only just an effective tactic, but also a cessation tool for those who are disinclined to give up 9/11 debunking cold turkey.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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And the debunkers love to eat popcorn with ketchup. Thats a horrible thing!!!

So i demand all the debunkers to stop eating popcorn with ketchup.

And i also demand to stop murdering people. To stop listening to classic music.

Should i make a list for the debunkers?

Whatever floats your boat!
 
A Wholly Unscientific Response to an Unscientific Statement

And here I thought that Mackey had played his swan song with “Irreducible Delusion,” yet now he has submitted another screed, which I suspect he intends will accomplish what his last opus had not: to provide a rational reason why skepticism toward the official story of 9/11 is irrelevant, unnecessary, and should be ignored by similarly rational people.

The hope is that if someone could just put a tidy frame around this damn conspiracy, we can move on with our lives, which is what Mackey is proposing. A more subjective, less referenced (except for self-referential) “analysis” has not been seen since Mark Roberts was posting. But I join with Mackey in declaring the Truth Movement dead, the conspiracy irrelevant. If we do that maybe we can move on to the business of skepticism and put NIST’s, the Commission’s, and the government’s story to the test. 9/11 is a massive historical event, arguably, the most complicated single day in American history. Surely, no one on a forum which dedicates itself to critical thinking and skepticism would suggest that everything is already known, all hypotheses proven, all questions answered. But that’s not what’s going to happen here on jref. As much as the mods and the prevailing majority whine about it, the 9/11 sub-forum is the perfect place to keep this discussion. If the sub-forum were closed, this event would have to be discussed like other historical events, without rancor, without conflation of hypotheses, without guilt by association. What’s Mackey and his fellow debunkers to do without the demon Truthers?

Granted, questions are anathema here, yet Mackey is focused on just one set of questions and appears incapable of answering them. To whit:

“So, then, why? What is it about September 11th conspiracy theories that drew so many of us in? Why
focus our effort here, instead of on a hundred other equally foolish notions?
For years I had no good answer to this question.” (8)
The reason for his inability to answer these questions is because he has succumbed to the temptation of demonizing and conflating all skepticism toward the official story with Conspiracy Theory and Trutherism. 9/11 Truthers are like the Westboro Baptist bigots or Holocaust deniers. They suffer from the same flawed thinking. Their motives and means not all that different. The “truthers” he focuses on are the more controversial and high profile, the most fringe theorists. I suspect it’s difficult for Mackey to categorize people such as Frank Greening, Kamal Obeid, Steven Dusterwald, Paul Thompson, and Gregory Urich. Are they basement dwelling Twoofies? Or is the answer to Mackey’s unanswered set of questions that when informing oneself about the official explanations a very rational response is skepticism, even when some of these skeptics are structural engineers or scientists with very relevant professional experience?

Let’s help Mackey out and declare the issue dead once and for all, so we can get on with treating 9/11 as we would any other historical event: a complex set of circumstances and an incomplete record that must be studied with the same dispassion and scrutiny as any other subject.
 
Let’s help Mackey out and declare the issue dead once and for all, so we can get on with treating 9/11 as we would any other historical event: a complex set of circumstances and an incomplete record that must be studied with the same dispassion and scrutiny as any other subject.


The problem with that, is you people keep insisting on making statements without evidence. "Silverstein made out like a bandit" comes to mind.

Listen kiddo - let this sink in:
9/11 was the single most recorded event in human history. Hundreds of thousands of eyes were on it, as it was happening. There is no room for misinterpretation. None. What we saw is what happened.

What we didn't see, we didn't see because it didn't happen.

We didn't see explosives. We didn't find any trace of explosives. We found no thermite. We found no evidence of controlled demoliton of any kind. We don't have any logical way of planting the tons and tons of items needed into any building without being seen. EVEN IF every occupant was paid off to remain silent, we don't have ANY explosives that could survive the aircraft impacts and massive fires. They simply do not exist.

And Larry Silverstein LOST HIS SHIRT on 9/11. He lost more money than any single person.

That's the fact.
 
Imagine, a retrospective of the 9/11 Truth Movement that just takes for granted that the 9/11 conspiracy theories have no validity. That's got to be about as controversial as a history of ancient Egypt that just takes for granted that aliens didn't build the pyramids.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
How do you know Breivik is a psychopath? Yes, he did an extreme thing, but all you need to do extreme things is an extreme ideology. 911 was also extreme, but you don't think all of the 19 hijackers are psychopaths? They could just have a twisted ideology?

He killed 77 people in a single day of cowardly attacks on the helpless. You can't seriously consider him to be anything but a psychopath.

The hijackers, also psychopaths, to be sure. But they're not the same as Truthers, not one bit.

If I was lost in the NWO-conspiracy and I "knew" I had the truth, I would attack the government that I knew was making concentration camps, poisoning the water and fabricating elections. That does not make me a psychopath? It just makes me lost in a twisted ideology?

Fortunately there are other actions one could take than fighting the Government -- your above assertion is essentially an "If I Ran the Zoo" logical fallacy. Even Truthers who honestly believe everything they're saying in the most paranoid way possible can think of other things to do.

Most of them, of course, take no action at all. They could, for instance, leave the country -- I recently read that Jesse Ventura petulantly threatened to leave for Mexico after his recent TSA lawsuit was thrown out. Really, Governor? You've stuck around all this time believing the Government murders thousands of its own just for fun and profit, but you're splitting over indignity at an airport? Well, OK, I won't stop you. AMF, Jesse! :w2:

Some years ago I answered what I'd do if the Conspiracy turned out to be real, and I had some privileged knowledge about it. My answer doesn't require a single shot to be fired. And I say this as someone who could quite easily make Anders Breivik look like the clumsy amateur that he was if it came to mayhem.

I reiterate: Don't ignore the fringe. Quite the opposite -- engage them. Try to bring them back to the community. Just ignore their paranoid fantasies and conspiracy theories. Dwelling on them only makes them worse and only makes them seem more real in their eyes. How many times have you heard a Truther say there must be something to their beliefs, just because we spend so much effort defending ours? Think about it.
 
Of possibly more relevance is my notion, two years ago, that asking Truthers questions (whether straightforward, rhetorical, sarcastic, Socratic, or otherwise) is almost without exception a tactical error.

[...] When I do ask a question it's because a Truther has actually succeeded in arousing my curiosity about something. (Not that I have much hope of eliciting a useful answer, but every once in a while the question is at least deserved.) The net effect has been to ramp down my own participation here.

Therefore I now suggest the question-free approach as not only just an effective tactic, but also a cessation tool for those who are disinclined to give up 9/11 debunking cold turkey.

Another excellent point -- one that demonstrates quite clearly that Truthers are not "just asking questions," but are in fact only spoiling for an argument.

It wasn't always like this, of course. You and I both would occasionally find something interesting or insightful in their commentary, and once upon a time there were more rational Truthers who asked valid questions. Those days are long gone...
 
Let’s help Mackey out and declare the issue dead once and for all, so we can get on with treating 9/11 as we would any other historical event: a complex set of circumstances and an incomplete record that must be studied with the same dispassion and scrutiny as any other subject.

Despite your tone and the fact that you seem to have missed the point of my paper entirely (no doubt to start another argument -- don't bother, I'm not interested), I agree with the above. Treating the subject dispassionately and symmetrically, in accordance with other historical inquiries, is a perfect fit to my recommended approach, summarized in Chapter 12.
 
And here I thought that Mackey had played his swan song with “Irreducible Delusion,” yet now he has submitted another screed, which I suspect he intends will accomplish what his last opus had not: to provide a rational reason why skepticism toward the official story of 9/11 is irrelevant, unnecessary, and should be ignored by similarly rational people.

The hope is that if someone could just put a tidy frame around this damn conspiracy, we can move on with our lives, which is what Mackey is proposing. A more subjective, less referenced (except for self-referential) “analysis” has not been seen since Mark Roberts was posting. But I join with Mackey in declaring the Truth Movement dead, the conspiracy irrelevant. If we do that maybe we can move on to the business of skepticism and put NIST’s, the Commission’s, and the government’s story to the test. 9/11 is a massive historical event, arguably, the most complicated single day in American history. Surely, no one on a forum which dedicates itself to critical thinking and skepticism would suggest that everything is already known, all hypotheses proven, all questions answered. But that’s not what’s going to happen here on jref. As much as the mods and the prevailing majority whine about it, the 9/11 sub-forum is the perfect place to keep this discussion. If the sub-forum were closed, this event would have to be discussed like other historical events, without rancor, without conflation of hypotheses, without guilt by association. What’s Mackey and his fellow debunkers to do without the demon Truthers?

Granted, questions are anathema here, yet Mackey is focused on just one set of questions and appears incapable of answering them. To whit:


The reason for his inability to answer these questions is because he has succumbed to the temptation of demonizing and conflating all skepticism toward the official story with Conspiracy Theory and Trutherism. 9/11 Truthers are like the Westboro Baptist bigots or Holocaust deniers. They suffer from the same flawed thinking. Their motives and means not all that different. The “truthers” he focuses on are the more controversial and high profile, the most fringe theorists. I suspect it’s difficult for Mackey to categorize people such as Frank Greening, Kamal Obeid, Steven Dusterwald, Paul Thompson, and Gregory Urich. Are they basement dwelling Twoofies? Or is the answer to Mackey’s unanswered set of questions that when informing oneself about the official explanations a very rational response is skepticism, even when some of these skeptics are structural engineers or scientists with very relevant professional experience?

Let’s help Mackey out and declare the issue dead once and for all, so we can get on with treating 9/11 as we would any other historical event: a complex set of circumstances and an incomplete record that must be studied with the same dispassion and scrutiny as any other subject.

Great post
 
He killed 77 people in a single day of cowardly attacks on the helpless. You can't seriously consider him to be anything but a psychopath.

The hijackers, also psychopaths, to be sure. But they're not the same as Truthers, not one bit.

So if the professional finds him not to be a psychopath you will just say they are wrong? Mcveigh was also a psychopath? Sorry to say, but absolutely mentally healthy people can do extreme things. It all depends on your ideology... I don't see a big difference between people hating the US government because of what the government have done and does in the middle east, and the people hating the government for what they think the government is doing again the nation.

Both islamic fundamentalists and extreme right wing in US are infested with conspiracy theories that are being spread to keep up the hate.
 
I enjoy the discussion that is going on here (minus a few troll posts). This is the only kind of discussion that is productive regarding 9/11 conspiracy theories; the psychological and sociological reasons for why people hold these kinds of beliefs in the face of all the evidence. Discussions with twoofers is never going to be productive.
 
So if the professional finds him not to be a psychopath you will just say they are wrong? Mcveigh was also a psychopath? Sorry to say, but absolutely mentally healthy people can do extreme things. It all depends on your ideology... I don't see a big difference between people hating the US government because of what the government have done and does in the middle east, and the people hating the government for what they think the government is doing again the nation.

Both islamic fundamentalists and extreme right wing in US are infested with conspiracy theories that are being spread to keep up the hate.

Timothy McVeigh was also a psychopath, yes. :boggled:

I'm not aware that any professional body has found Anders Breivik to be otherwise.

There are many, many millions of people who are totally angry at the Government, religions, each other... often based on conspiracy thinking, sometimes not. Very, very few of them decide to start killing each other. So few, in fact, that nuts like McVeigh and Breivik cannot be treated statistically. It's a good thing.
 
I suspect it’s difficult for Mackey to categorize people such as Frank Greening, Kamal Obeid, Steven Dusterwald, Paul Thompson, and Gregory Urich.

RedIbis brings up a good point. Why isn't Frank Greening in your paper, Ryan? He was a JREFer, by the accounts given of him. I'd like to know the story there, it seems like an important omission.
 
RedIbis brings up a good point. Why isn't Frank Greening in your paper, Ryan? He was a JREFer, by the accounts given of him. I'd like to know the story there, it seems like an important omission.

The list of things not in my paper is quite large. How do you think he supports this thesis? What does he add that the other examples do not? I'm confused by this.
 
RedIbis brings up a good point. Why isn't Frank Greening in your paper, Ryan? He was a JREFer, by the accounts given of him. I'd like to know the story there, it seems like an important omission.

Was the paper meant as a history of the JREF 9/11 Conspiracy Theories section? Or even of the Truth Movement?
 
The list of things not in my paper is quite large. How do you think he supports this thesis? What does he add that the other examples do not? I'm confused by this.

I wasn't real clear on your thesis, I suppose. It read to me like a retrospective, although your titled aim was "The Role of Technology and Social Media in the 9/11 Truth Movement". It was from the retrospective angle that it seemed like an omission, especially since it seemed to group discussion into two camps.
 
I wasn't real clear on your thesis, I suppose. It read to me like a retrospective, although your titled aim was "The Role of Technology and Social Media in the 9/11 Truth Movement". It was from the retrospective angle that it seemed like an omission, especially since it seemed to group discussion into two camps.

A retrospective is not the same as a history... sorry if I confused people with the thread title. My own retrospection led me to write it, but I frankly don't care enough about the Truth Movement to try to chronicle the whole thing. My historical overview focuses solely on its popularity and factors that led to its popularity, and in this respect, Dr. Greening is not a factor.

You make the same mistake that RedIbis made -- I do not categorize people at all. Many people identified themselves as Truthers, and I'm content to go along with that. Dr. Greening did not. As a result he's not really relevant for this paper. Gregory Urich is closer, because he is a sterling example of a former "Truther," and one who was not at all swayed by argument and ridicule, but instead by his own valid research. But there's plenty of other examples. I have a hard enough time as it is keeping my papers focused.
 

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