Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

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The decrease in wages due to illegal immigration was effective and realized decades ago. The surplus of workers only keeps wages low relative to the number of surplus workers.
So it's pure coincidence that migrant farm laborers are overwhelmingly foreigners?

If a gap existed 20 years ago for X number of workers then the same gap exists today. Given that the number has stayed relatively close to X, in relation to the native population then X can't account for further decreases in wages, unless of course you maintain that X is growing at a significantly greater rate than the native population. Are you claiming that?
How much do you think wages in industries with high prercentages of immigrant workers have fared in the last 20 years, as compared to wages in industries in which immigrants play a minor role?

So yes, I sure as hell can complain about the erosion of wages unrelated to illegal to immigration. Like I said, it's fairly simple math. Question is, will you continue to ignore the facts?
You don't seem too concerned about those unskilled workers whose pay is capped by what an immigrant from a 3rd-world country is willing to work for.
 
Interesting question. Hypothetically one could classify a teller working at a bank that was bailed out as a bankster, technically, the teller is still employed because the bank wasn't allowed to fail. I suspect not though as this movement seems to center solely on rich people. Ant the environment, and 911 twoof and legalising all drugs and free tuition and no private donations to political parties and.....

I don't think it is centered on the rich as the OWS folks had no problem being supported by the super wealthy such as Michael Moore, Alec Baldwin and Sean Penn. It seems you just have to hate Wall Street. No personal responsibility for poor decision making is required.

IMO the saturday thing is designed to revolve around working people who, presumably, have the day off, All out local events, like tomorrow's music festival, revolve around weekends.

My understanding was November 5th was choosen to coincide with Guy Fawkes Day because somehow a 1605 religious dispute in England has something to do with modern banking in the U.S. in 2011. :confused:
 
I don't think it is centered on the rich as the OWS folks had no problem being supported by the super wealthy such as Michael Moore, Alec Baldwin and Sean Penn. It seems you just have to hate Wall Street. No personal responsibility for poor decision making is required.

But those are famous actors, they're exempt from criticism as are professional athletes. We're seeing all these charts critical of CEO's income and income disparity but nothing ( or very little ) about the excesses of the entertainment industry.

My understanding was November 5th was choosen to coincide with Guy Fawkes Day because somehow a 1605 religious dispute in England has something to do with modern banking in the U.S. in 2011.

Could be, I don't know I'm just speculating here but my experience with protests and protesters tell me it's all about the numbers, how many people you can get out and a non working day seems like the best day to schedule an action that requires actually being in a bank rather than standing at an ATM.

IMO a better idea would have been to host cut up your credit cards day seeing how consumer debt loads feature prominently in this movement. At least they did at the start. The 'demands" seem to have taken a back seat to the plight of the protesters and the condition of their camps
 
So it's pure coincidence that migrant farm laborers are overwhelmingly foreigners?
And this is relevant because?

How much do you think wages in industries with high prercentages of immigrant workers have fared in the last 20 years, as compared to wages in industries in which immigrants play a minor role?
Irrelevant question. If the ratio of migrants to natives is largely static then it's pointless.

You don't seem too concerned about those unskilled workers whose pay is capped by what an immigrant from a 3rd-world country is willing to work for.
My concern or lack thereof is not relevant to the question at hand.

One more time, let's accept your premise for arguments sake. Given the hypothetical that we could stop any future legal and illegal immigration what would result? Well, that would decrease the supply of workers and increase wages. But the increase would reach a point of equilibrium and would not stop the long term downward trend. As I have said at least twice now and as you have ignored at least twice now, it would be at best a stop gap measure. If the system hasn't changed in regards to workers over the last 20 years then it's not relevant to the current trend.
 
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Felix Salmon writes for Reuters:



http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/10/13/the-enormous-mortgage-bond-scandal/

It turns out that the bankers were a mixture of the inept and the corrupt. The banks were run by bumbling idiots who let the leverage get out of hand and who also turned a blind eye (and were perhaps knowingly complicit) in the on-selling of these bad investments. Now we have banks suing banks over these MBS:



http://www.rewealthcoach.com/2011/0...nks-over-mortgage-backed-securities-gone-bad/

On what basis is Wells Fargo suing JP Morgan? Surely Wells, a bank, knows that another bank couldn't knowingly package together these bad assets and sell them on? That it was merely a big shock for all concerned when these things turned out to be bad?

But actually it didn't turn out to be bad for the Too Big to Fails as Uncle Sam bailed them out and they were not even broken up.



The clue is in the name.

Time will tell where these lawsuits go. Keep in mind, they can get themselves into some trouble without deliberate fraud. Depends how the contracts were written.
 
For sake of argument:

  • Let's assume that NFL coaches were paid based on team performance.
  • Let's assume that NFL coaches were allowed to hedge their teams performance (bet that their teams would lose).
  • The return for winning team performance has an upper limit.
  • The return for losing team performance has has no limit.
  • What is more likely to net a higher return for the coaches? Playing to win or playing to lose?

No. While it is not evidence in and of itself, because there is a strong monetary incentative to package losers and bet on losers, if it can be demonstrated that the investments were known to be likely losers then that is strong evidence of fraud. Using my NFL example. If the coach sent in his third string without any obvious reason (no injuries) then that would be strong evidence that the coach was defrauding his clients.

The analogy fails because the coach has a significant influence on the outcome of the game. It may be obvious that he wanted to lose if sends in all of his third stringers for no good reason, but it would also be him controlling the outcome. No bank has the ability to collapse housing prices or single handedly build a bubble like we saw.

This by no means means that there can't have been, or wasn't fraud, but hedging, taking no position and even taking an opposite position to a product sold is not evidence of fraud. Banks have no legal requirement to invest themselves into a product they will provide for you, nor should they, it would be like demanding your local grocer eat everything he stocks himself and be willing to eat anything he orders at your request. They do need to reasonably attempt to provide you with accurate information about the products they are selling or will order. For instance, if S&P gives a AAA to a bond, they can advertise that, they cannot guarantee that the bond will live up to the rating. It is up to you if you want to listen to the advice of ratings agencies. Just like your food comes with lists of ingredients, nutrients etc. You have a right to know what you are buying from a bank, but they do not have to make the same investments as you.

And let's cut the nonsense about this anyway, banks brought themselves to their knees by over leveraging themselves in these products. If they had bought less of them and done a better job hedging we would not have had to bail them out. If they knew how bad these mortgage backed securities were their investment strategies were even more absurd than they appear to be without assuming that.
 
How are they, in this instance, not welfare. If someone gave me a $220M loan that had little to no risk how is that not a form of welfare? What exactly is the difference? How many people (including poor people) would love that sweatheart deal? Hey I WOULD WANT IT. And I would consider it a windfall.

Asserting it's not a form of welfare and therefore Taibbi is an idiot is just more ad hominem.

Right, mortgages are welfare now :rolleyes:
 
The analogy fails because the coach has a significant influence on the outcome of the game. It may be obvious that he wanted to lose if sends in all of his third stringers for no good reason, but it would also be him controlling the outcome. No bank has the ability to collapse housing prices or single handedly build a bubble like we saw.
That would be a straw man. We aren't talking about a single coach bringing down the entire NFL and we are not talking about a single bank collapsing the housing market (you really had to stretch for that one). That's absurd. No, my analogy was direct and to point as to whether hedging could be evidence of fraud. Nothing more. No need for a grandiose CT to destroy the banking industry. On the contrary, just whether it's possible to use hedging in a fraudulent manner (the topic of discussion remember?). Obviously the answer is yes and my example demonstrates that nicely.

It would be like demanding your local grocer eat everything he stocks himself and be willing to eat anything he orders at your request.
Another straw man. I'm not against hedging. I'm against fraud. If the banks packaged known toxic assets and bet against them because they anticipated they would fail that is, IMO, a crime.

And let's cut the nonsense about this anyway, banks brought themselves to their knees by over leveraging themselves in these products.
Fallacy. Being stupid isn't a defense. By your logic a terrorist who blows his hands off building a bomb must be innocent.

And let's address THAT nonsense. These idiots didn't just harm themselves they hurt innocent people and because they we're too big to fail we bailed them out. What's worse is that the dynamics that resulted in this mess are still largely intact because these idiots are smart enough to give politicians a lot of money to fight regulation. I'm not about to cry for the ****** banks, cut them slack or pretend that they must be innocent because they blew themselves up.
 
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The public was not aware of the distributions of this money.

Is any of the money loaned held in reserve? What is the risk to the public? What is the risk to the two women? How much has been spent to buy loans? If it hasn't all been spent why not and is there a time limit?

Much of the confusion in this thread seems to stem from Taibbi doing a very poor job differentiating between the Treasury and the Federal Reserve. This supposedly super duper secret shadow budget is the Fed's, not the Treasury's.

The Treasury collects taxes, fines, even gets the Fed's profits annually and so on. This is what is generally considered to be public money. The Fed does not collect taxes and does not spend any tax money. It creates and destroys base money when it buys, lends, sells and collects debt.

To answer your question, loans from the Fed include no risk to the public in a traditional sense, taxpayers are not on the hook if a loan is not repaid. Ron Paul and his ilk would be quick to point out that creating money creates a risk of inflation, although we aren't talking about amounts significant enough to do that, I suppose you could consider that to be the public's risk. Public money, held by the Treasury, is not at risk when the Fed makes a loan.


There are so many ways to exploit $220M. If I put up $15M but there is no requirement for me to use all of the money for the loans then there is no risk. If there is no time limit I can put off using $15M.

Again, why was the distribution of these funds kept secret? Has there been an accounting? How much risk do these women assume? It stinks.

Ron Paul and his like minded goons got one of their few ever victories in their crusade against the Fed with this. Long standing policy was overturned to force the Fed to immediately disclose the recipients of loans. This supposed secrey was in place for a multitude of reasons, most importantly:

1. To protect against bank runs. In its capacity as the lender of last resort the Fed lends money to banks for a variety of reasons, including so that they can meet their reserve requirements. These are typically overnight loans. If a bank is in serious trouble there is the machinery in place with the Fed, FDIC, SEC and so on to take over and transfer the bank while protecting the deposits of its customers. Needing an overnight loan does not necessarily mean that the bank is in any serious trouble. The "secrecy" is to prevent misunderstandings leading to bank runs.

2. Perhaps more importantly, to keep the congress out of monetary policy. Laws governing the Fed have long been designed to keep the congress out of its day to day decision making. The congress has oversight, including auditing, and plays a role in the appointment of Fed leadership but is to stay away from its day to day business. This is significant. Poor monetary policy can be catastrophic and easily abused. For example, it wouldn't do us any good if congress could say, "you can't lend that bank money, they didn't contribute as much as we wanted to our campaigns, err, scratch that, their business model is bad." Additionally, monetary policy directed for short term reelection purposes, rather than the long term good would be a disaster. And if you think they are bad with public money, imagine how out of control they would get with base money creation.

You could always develop a general idea of what the Fed is up to by following its weekly updates to its balance sheet, but some of the specifics of loan recipients were not immediately released. This "secrecy" has long fueled conspiracy theories but was in place for much more mundane reasons.
 
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This thread brings to mind a Lennon quote.

“Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it.” --John Lennon
 
That would be a straw man. We aren't talking about a single coach bringing down the entire NFL and we are not talking about a single bank collapsing the housing market (you really had to stretch for that one). That's absurd. No, my analogy was direct and to point as to whether hedging could be evidence of fraud. Nothing more. No need for a grandiose CT to destroy the banking industry. On the contrary, just whether it's possible to use hedging in a fraudulent manner (the topic of discussion remember?). Obviously the answer is yes and my example demonstrates that nicely.

Another straw man. I'm not against hedging. I'm against fraud. If the banks packaged known toxic assets and bet against them because they anticipated they would fail that is, IMO, a crime.

Fallacy. Being stupid isn't a defense. By your logic a terrorist who blows his hands off building a bomb must be innocent.

And let's address THAT nonsense. These idiots didn't just harm themselves they hurt innocent people and because they we're too big to fail we bailed them out. What's worse is that the dynamics that resulted in this mess are still largely intact because these idiots are smart enough to give politicians a lot of money to fight regulation. I'm not about to cry for the ****** banks, cut them slack or pretend that they must be innocent because they blew themselves up.

If you have evidence of fraud, myself and many others would like to see it. But it seems that you have nothing beyond speculation and conspiracy theories about how the SEC won't investigate fraud because their results don't always match your predetermined conclusions and Matt Taibbi said so.
 
To answer your question, loans from the Fed include no risk to the public in a traditional sense, taxpayers are not on the hook if a loan is not repaid.
Power tends to corrupt and money is power. The ability to distribute vast amounts of wealth on behalf of the public is a rather significant responsibility.

This is significant. Poor monetary policy can be catastrophic and easily abused. For example, it wouldn't do us any good if congress could say, "you can't lend that bank money, they didn't contribute as much as we wanted to our campaigns, err, scratch that, their business model is bad."
I'm sorry but it cuts both ways. Whoever controls this money has significant power and influence. When they start handing out money in a manner that is outside of its normal operations it ought to raise suspicion and apparently it did just that (congress forced the Fed to reveal who the payments were going to.)

But none of this addresses the salient points I raised.
 
I don't think they were managing the money. TALF Waterfall was. They were passive investors in an LLC.
Why do you think the loans were not on the "public books".

They were on the Fed's books, not the Treasury's. Therefore it is some sort of sinister plot or Taibbi is just mouthing off about things he doesn't understand again.
 
If you have evidence of fraud, myself and many others would like to see it.
You admit the civil suits. That there is indication of wrong doing isn't just in Taibbi's mind. A number of links have been posted regarding civil suits and even settlements. So this pretension that it was all innocent is just so much BS.
 
What I mean is that it is loan, not welfare. The Fed lent them money to carry out a task. Assets purchased with the money serve as collateral.
Someone can't monetarily benifit from a low interest loan? Really?
 
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