Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

Status
Not open for further replies.
You keep ignoring the fact that the people who got the $220 million loan had to put $15 million of their own money in the deal as well, that they had to use it to buy specific polls of problem loans, and that they had to leave the loans with the Fed as collateral. Still think it's a sweetheart deal that you would love to take?
Damn straight I would.

$220M with $15M collateral is the equivalent of a $205M loan without collateral. The math isn't hard. These loans were cleaned up. The people who got the $220M didn't bear all of the risk for those loans. I'm not sure if you are getting that. Rich people like banking because it's a fairly reliable return (so long as you manage and not assume to much risk). The American public is managing and assuming most of the risk.

Let me hasten to add, if the rules required that all $220M must be used without any set asides then my first point above is moot. But this raises an important question, what were the rules and how much money was spent (what value of loans were purchased?)? Also, since these loans were not initially made known to the public why should we assume that there was any planned oversight? What was the purpose for keeping them hidden?
 
Last edited:
Riiiight. Let's assume for a moment that this is true. Godwin ISN'T fallacy. It isn't an error in logic. Look, if you are going to make that point then ALSO deal with the other points. You know, the salient ones. Otherwise you are just being absurd.

As to your assertion of using a nazi quote to dismiss valid criticism. What valid criticism? My claim is that brainster continues to post misleading and fallacious anecdotes with the hope of making his narrative true.

Other than the fact that any group (which appears leaderless) is defined by the behaviour of the members of that group.

Brainster is providing documented evidence of how chaotic these gatherings are and how it isn't all singing/playing drums and relating to each other about how bad the big bad gubmint is.
 
Damn straight I would.

$220M with $15M collateral is the equivalent of a $205M loan without collateral. The math isn't hard. These loans were cleaned up. The people who got the $220M didn't bear all of the risk for those loans. I'm not sure if you are getting that. Rich people like banking because it's a fairly reliable return (so long as you manage and not assume to much risk). The American public is managing and assuming most of the risk.

Let me hasten to add, if the rules required that all $220M must be used without any set asides then my first point above is moot. But this raises an important question, what were the rules and how much money was spent (what value of loans were purchased?)? Also, since these loans were not initially made known to the public why should we assume that there was any planned oversight? What was the purpose for keeping them hidden?

If I recall correctly the investor loses their whole investment first and then the government if they were unable to pay back.
The public was not aware of the TALF program?


Maybe I misunderstand you but I don't think this is true.
$220M with $15M collateral is the equivalent of a $205M loan without collateral.
One way you could lose 15,000,000, one way you would not lose the money. if they are non recourse
 
Last edited:
Why do you think they are not seeking criminal charges?
I suspect it's the incestous relationship between financial institutions and the Feds. So they have a spat and the Feds seek monetary compensation but they are not going to put their partners in jail.
 
Other than the fact that any group (which appears leaderless) is defined by the behaviour of the members of that group.
Without a dogma or appropriate methodology to control for bias how do you judge the behavior? There are criminals and bad people in every group, and?

Brainster is providing documented evidence of how chaotic these gatherings are and how it isn't all singing/playing drums and relating to each other about how bad the big bad gubmint is.
Brainster is providing anecdotes without any hint of objectivity. Watch the video I posted above. I hate to be the one to break the news to you but it is possible to selectively document behavior in order to propagate a preconceived bias. Where are the controls? Where is the objectivity?

This is a skeptics forum. Do you even know what skepticism is? Objectivity? Bias? Propaganda? Cherry Picking? Do you uncritically accept any post as proof of something? Really? If so then I have a recommendation. You should go over to the Conspiracy Theory forum to see how people can selectively document facts and information to prove the govts involvement in 9/11. You will get a quick lesson why you should not swallow whole everything someone posts on a forum.

Let me know how it goes.
 
Last edited:
If I recall correctly the investor loses their whole investment first and then the government if they were unable to pay back.
The public was not aware of the TALF program?
The public was not aware of the distributions of this money.

Maybe I misunderstand you but I don't think this is true.

One way you could lose 15,000,000, one way you would not lose the money. if they are non recourse
Is any of the money loaned held in reserve? What is the risk to the public? What is the risk to the two women? How much has been spent to buy loans? If it hasn't all been spent why not and is there a time limit?

There are so many ways to exploit $220M. If I put up $15M but there is no requirement for me to use all of the money for the loans then there is no risk. If there is no time limit I can put off using $15M.

Again, why was the distribution of these funds kept secret? Has there been an accounting? How much risk do these women assume? It stinks.
 
Damn straight I would.

$220M with $15M collateral is the equivalent of a $205M loan without collateral. The math isn't hard. These loans were cleaned up. The people who got the $220M didn't bear all of the risk for those loans. I'm not sure if you are getting that. Rich people like banking because it's a fairly reliable return (so long as you manage and not assume to much risk). The American public is managing and assuming most of the risk.

Let me hasten to add, if the rules required that all $220M must be used without any set asides then my first point above is moot. But this raises an important question, what were the rules and how much money was spent (what value of loans were purchased?)? Also, since these loans were not initially made known to the public why should we assume that there was any planned oversight? What was the purpose for keeping them hidden?

Yes, your whole first paragraph is erroneous. They made a $235 million purchase of loans, with $15 million of their own money and $220 million of the Fed's; according to Taibbi the loans were on commercial real estate and student loans. All of the loans were collateral for the $220 million loan.

I would be happy to see some transparency on what exactly they bought, although it can get very complicated. You or I, with our experience in finance might understand it; Taibbi would be lost. I don't want to turn this into a lecture on CMBS (collateralized mortgage-backed securities), so I will use the broad brush.

Basically Wall Street would fund a pool of commercial real estate loans; for ease of figuring we will assume $1 billion. Let's say for simplicity's sake that the average interest rate is 5%, so that the annual interest from the pool is $50 million. What the Wall Street wizards do is strip off the first, say $30 million of that and turn it into the security for a bond. Because it gets first call on the money, 40% of the loans would have to be in default before the people who invested in that bond would suffer any loss of interest. Therefor the bond would be very highly rated, say AAA, and would carry a much lower interest rate than the rest of the pool; say 4%. Thus, they could sell the bond for $750 million ($30 million divided by .04). Then they take the next $10 million of the interest and turn that into another bond. Because this is a riskier investment, the rate on that bond might be 5.5%, which they sell for $181 million. The final $10 million is riskier still, and it might demand a rate of 7.5%. So that piece sells for $133 million, and at the end of the day, Wall Street has turned a $1 billion pool of loans into $1.064 billion of bonds, with the $64 million representing the profit on the deal

Again, that is a very broad brush look; ignoring pesky little things like amortization. So the question becomes which piece (usually called a tranche) did they buy, which pool, what loans are in the pool, how are the underlying properties performing, what sort of discount did they get on the face value of the bonds, etc. If they bought one of the junk tranches (which are the toughest to sell and the most risky in a bad economic climate), they might conceivably have bought $1 billion in face value and might have lost it all. Well, not it all, mind you, as Taibbi notes that $70 million has been paid back to the Fed.

In short, though, it's a very complex transaction, especially once you get into the real-world analysis of the individual properties. Taibbi's brush is much broader than mine and I hope that's just because he doesn't understand what he's talking about.
 
The public was not aware of the distributions of this money.

Is any of the money loaned held in reserve? What is the risk to the public? What is the risk to the two women? How much has been spent to buy loans? If it hasn't all been spent why not and is there a time limit?

There are so many ways to exploit $220M. If I put up $15M but there is no requirement for me to use all of the money for the loans then there is no risk. If there is no time limit I can put off using $15M.

Again, why was the distribution of these funds kept secret? Has there been an accounting? How much risk do these women assume? It stinks.

I would advise reading the TALF FAQ's.
http://www.ny.frb.org/markets/talf_faq.html

Also, since these loans were not initially made known to the public why should we assume that there was any planned oversight? What was the purpose for keeping them hidden?
What exactly do you think was hidden? Probably more like no one was interested in looking.
 
Last edited:
I suspect it's the incestous relationship between financial institutions and the Feds. So they have a spat and the Feds seek monetary compensation but they are not going to put their partners in jail.
Some of the protests should be moved to the White House and the Dept of Justice.

Personally I believe there has not been little or no evidence of any acts rising to the level of a crime yet*. Do I believe it is possible there has been a case where someone has looked the other way , of course? But I believe that would be the exception not the rule. I do not believe the Feds are a corrupt group.

* Actually if I recall correctly there have been some criminal cases.
 
Yes, your whole first paragraph is erroneous. They made a $235 million purchase of loans, with $15 million of their own money and $220 million of the Fed's; according to Taibbi the loans were on commercial real estate and student loans. All of the loans were collateral for the $220 million loan.

I would be happy to see some transparency on what exactly they bought, although it can get very complicated. You or I, with our experience in finance might understand it; Taibbi would be lost. I don't want to turn this into a lecture on CMBS (collateralized mortgage-backed securities), so I will use the broad brush.

Basically Wall Street would fund a pool of commercial real estate loans; for ease of figuring we will assume $1 billion. Let's say for simplicity's sake that the average interest rate is 5%, so that the annual interest from the pool is $50 million. What the Wall Street wizards do is strip off the first, say $30 million of that and turn it into the security for a bond. Because it gets first call on the money, 40% of the loans would have to be in default before the people who invested in that bond would suffer any loss of interest. Therefor the bond would be very highly rated, say AAA, and would carry a much lower interest rate than the rest of the pool; say 4%. Thus, they could sell the bond for $750 million ($30 million divided by .04). Then they take the next $10 million of the interest and turn that into another bond. Because this is a riskier investment, the rate on that bond might be 5.5%, which they sell for $181 million. The final $10 million is riskier still, and it might demand a rate of 7.5%. So that piece sells for $133 million, and at the end of the day, Wall Street has turned a $1 billion pool of loans into $1.064 billion of bonds, with the $64 million representing the profit on the deal

Again, that is a very broad brush look; ignoring pesky little things like amortization. So the question becomes which piece (usually called a tranche) did they buy, which pool, what loans are in the pool, how are the underlying properties performing, what sort of discount did they get on the face value of the bonds, etc. If they bought one of the junk tranches (which are the toughest to sell and the most risky in a bad economic climate), they might conceivably have bought $1 billion in face value and might have lost it all. Well, not it all, mind you, as Taibbi notes that $70 million has been paid back to the Fed.

In short, though, it's a very complex transaction, especially once you get into the real-world analysis of the individual properties. Taibbi's brush is much broader than mine and I hope that's just because he doesn't understand what he's talking about.
I will concede that I don't know that the these loans were inappropriate. It sure seems so. What experience did these women have to conclude that they could and would appropriately manage the money? If Taibbi is correct why were the loans kept off the public books? I do understand the logic behind the magic but I seriously distrust it. Why was there such a need to get the loans off the public books especially if the public were ultimately responsible for most of the risk? If I borrow money to purchase a car the finance company benefits from the interest I pay. How does the public (aside from perceptions) benefit from these loans other than offloading $15 million in risk?
 
I will concede that I don't know that the these loans were inappropriate. It sure seems so. What experience did these women have to conclude that they could and would appropriately manage the money? If Taibbi is correct why were the loans kept off the public books? I do understand the logic behind the magic but I seriously distrust it. Why was there such a need to get the loans off the public books especially if the public were ultimately responsible for most of the risk? If I borrow money to purchase a car the finance company benefits from the interest I pay. How does the public (aside from perceptions) benefit from these loans other than offloading $15 million in risk?
I don't think they were managing the money. TALF Waterfall was. They were passive investors in an LLC.
Why do you think the loans were not on the "public books".
 
Yes. I read it several days ago and glanced at it again today. Which facts required an act of congress to get?
If you read the article then I supect that now you are just screwing with me. Are you serious? If Taibbi is correct then there was money distributed that was off the books (namely the money that is the topic at hand). Now is there something about that you don't get? I'm fine if you are skeptical of Taibbi, that's one thing. To be obtuse is another. So far you have seem to me to be sincere. If you are not then I'm not going to respond to you. If you would like to have discussion then think carefully about your next response. If you don't give a damn then say anything you please and we can then part ways.

There are some facts that you would like that are still unavailable.
Is this a declaration or did you leave off a question mark? No criticism I just don't understand the statement in context with your questions.
 
Last edited:
....

Demonstrate that Ike was an incompetent reading words he didn't believe in, written by speech writers with a conflicting ideology.

....

Easy. This alleged prescience is not mentioned in any biography I've read of Eisenhower, nor in any American history survey text, nor in any of his own writings that I have read. The phrase only became relevant or memorable after its appropriation by Sixties radicals.

The other reasons are listed above.

EDIT: This is a pretty good brief on-line analysis of the speech but you really have to read biographies of Eisenhower himself to understand the context more fully:

http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/aroundthemall/2011/01/eisenhowers-farewell-speech-50-years-later/
 
Last edited:
Occupy LA is a loony town where loonies fight other loonies for control over the loonies:

The Occupation of Los Angeles - Part 7 - 10/28/2011
Infighting, Pot Smoke & Chemtrails - One Hundred Minutes at Occupy L.A.

I looked at my watch, it was 1:30pm…I had only been at the Occupy LA camp for about 100 minutes, and I already felt like my head was going to explode from the lunacy. I can’t even imagine what it must feel like to live in this environment 24 hours a day - seven days a week. Occupy L.A. is a nuthouse.

http://www.ringospictures.com/index.php?page=20111028
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom