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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I like how he summarised the colpevolisti.

There’s still a lot of people that still think you’re guilty. What would you like to say to them?
RS: These people have never affected me. They are letting off steam, perhaps they have their own problems and they are finding a way to release that. Maybe they don’t see me as a very nice person. But they don’t know the details of this case, and have decided based on intuition and what they read in the tabloids. [...] Those people don’t know the facts and don’t want to know them. They rely on the facts of the tabloids.


and


Your final speech on the day before the verdict? Some thought you were acting – despite appearing that normal guy.
RS: Whoever is of that inclination of guilt will always say that. However I behave they’ll see the guilt in me. That’s the way I see it. I couldn’t prepare that speech, it wouldn’t have made any difference however well I prepared it, so I just spoke from the heart.
 
Jings, there are some scary people out there.




http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...0a47ff98e9002250f6a7cab583&start=1600#p107361

I imagine and hope it's nothing but empty words, but these guys report having gone to Perugia quite often, and I wouldn't entirely put it past them.

Rolfe.

What is more scary is that some of the more rabid and deluded are actually Seattle residents, including the administrator and moderator. They seem not completely mentally stable and a possibility of some violent mental breakdown cannot be excluded.
I can only hope local authorities are advised and keep a discreet eye on them.
 
Excellent, Thanks!

Here's a link to the post . I'm not sure if it requires registration.

ETA:

The post unfortunately is in the section of forum for the registered users.

I took liberty to quote the rough translation by Newcomer, hope it's ok:


"Here’s a pic of Amanda dressed for Halloween? Was it insensitive?

Raffaele: What did Meredith’s friends do for Halloween I’d ask? Amanda is free after 4 years. She can celebrate Halloween – which is an important day in the USA.
"

_______________________

Katody,

Well, let's pray Mignini and Maresca are now preparing to charge Raffaele for calunnicating those English girls, Sophie Purton, Amy Frost, Natalie Hayworth, Jade Bidwell, Samantha Rodenhurst, Helen Powell and Robyn Butterworth. Right-thinking people---such as Mignini and Maresca---can be sure that each of Meredith's friends spent Halloween night at home. Alone. Reading the Bible.

///
 
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As Antony asked, have the people who say that DNA doesn't float ever heard of pollen?

I was just recalling what somebody else pointed out (can't remember who), at a time when C&V was not the prevailing opinion on the subject of the bra-clasp DNA.

My post was moved to AAH for some unexplained reason. I also recalled the oft-repeated (at one time) mantra: "DNA does not lie". My response was the DNA doesn't lie, but DNA technicians sometimes do.
 
no substitute for critical thinking

I was just recalling what somebody else pointed out (can't remember who), at a time when C&V was not the prevailing opinion on the subject of the bra-clasp DNA.

My post was moved to AAH for some unexplained reason. I also recalled the oft-repeated (at one time) mantra: "DNA does not lie". My response was the DNA doesn't lie, but DNA technicians sometimes do.
Antony,

DNA cannot lie, because it cannot be interrogated with respect to when or how it came to be present on an item. Just because a prosecutor says that he or she has DNA evidence, that should not be taken by the jurors to be permission to check their brains at the door.
 
_______________________

Katody,

Well, let's pray Mignini and Maresca are now preparing to charge Raffaele for calunnicating those English girls, Sophie Purton, Amy Frost, Natalie Hayworth, Jade Bidwell, Samantha Rodenhurst, Helen Powell and Robyn Butterworth. Right-thinking people---such as Mignini and Maresca---can be sure that each of Meredith's friends spent Halloween night at home. Alone. Reading the Bible.

This is what this case was all about. Nothing else.
 
My main motivation for posting this evening is that there was an extremely interesting programme on Channel 4 tonight here in the UK. It was presented by Derren Brown, who's firmly in the Randi camp of scepticism, mysticism, human psychology and debunking. Tonight's programme examined how a perfectly normal, well-educated, well-balanced young man (around 21-25 years of age by my estimation) can be led via coercive techniques to confess to a murder he didn't commit. While there are significant differences from the case with Knox, there are striking parallels, chief among which is the idea of convincing the subject that he (or she) cannot trust his (or her) own memory of events. And when this idea of untrustworthy memory is augmented by seemingly solid evidence of guilt, a perfectly normal young person can be persuaded to admit to virtually anything, including a full confession to murder.

If I find a youtube link to the programme which has global rights, I'll post it. I think it's a programme which strongly deserves to be seen when examining what might have happened in the Perugia police HQ on the night of 5th/6th November 2007.


Interesting, I will definitely watch it, it's up on Youtube now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY3BI_mF-c8
 
...As regards culpability, I don't think it's the same here as in the USA...I think there has to be the mens rea of intending to kill before the crime becomes murder rather than manslaughter...

Guessing "here" is UK. Well, I'd be surprised if Guede's action would qualify for manslaughter there. Even in the farfetched case that the knife wounds were "accidental".

And, btw, think a "specific intent to kill" not necessarily the only foundation upon which a murder charge can be layed in UK. Though, yes, a quick Google run seems to confirm at least that "felony murder", perse, has been abolished.
 
Just because a prosecutor says that he or she has DNA evidence, that should not be taken by the jurors to be permission to check their brains at the door.

Unfortunately, that seems to be what's happened in this case, not just with the (Massei) jury, but with bloggers in the comment sections of news articles. There seemed to be a wide assumption that because the prosecution was based on DNA "evidence" then it was unanswerable.

The other side of the coin was those who are saying that if the DNA evidence in the Knox/Sollecito prosecution was flawed, then it meant that all convictions based on DNA should be struck out as well.
 
Are you kidding?

...My main motivation for posting this evening is that there was an extremely interesting programme on Channel 4 tonight here in the UK. It was presented by Derren Brown, who's firmly in the Randi camp of scepticism, mysticism, human psychology and debunking...

Derren Brown is a magician. Everything he does is a trick.

His "debunking" is phony. The expanations he gives are faux. And simply a magician's misdirection to distract you from the secret method he actually used.

The same camp as Randi? Hardly. Derren is a big fan of Uri Gellar. Who is the very personification of "anti-Randiness".
 
Raf is the kind of person who restores faith in humanity.


That was a good interview. I read the PMF hate-spin on it first, before I read the translation, and wondered what the hell the idiot had said. But of course it was all just their negative spin. (For example, his answer about touching the bra clasp - they crowed that he hadn't denied touching it, and was evasive. I thought, WTF, because it's not that hard to lie about something like that. But of course he replied absolutely from the position of whether he might have touched it during the time the body was discovered, when he was there. He doesn't even seem to have considered that the question might be interpreted to mean "did you rip that bra off Meredith's dying body?")

I thought some weeks ago that Raffaele seems to be unusually decent. It was one of those PMF conversations about how he was going to "throw Amanda under the bus". It was always possible for him to have got out from under this if he'd done what one of the PMFers fantasised - "it all started the night Amanda came back to my house covered in blood...." Well, maybe not that blatant, but giving evidence that would have landed Amanda in it while exonerating himself.

It seems, from something he said around the time of the verdict, that his legal advisors had pointed this out to him. And he absolutely rejected it, saying he wouldn't be able to look at himself in the mirror if he cut her loose.

A lot was made of his comics habit. I don't know in detail what he was reading, but I do know that many of these titles are in fact highly moral. Blood and gore and evil - but the heroes are genuinely heroic, with concepts of honour and self-sacrifice held in high esteem. Raffaele comes over as a genuinely decent person, who is genuinely trying to do the right thing.

Rolfe.
 
Guessing "here" is UK. Well, I'd be surprised if Guede's action would qualify for manslaughter there. Even in the farfetched case that the knife wounds were "accidental".

And, btw, think a "specific intent to kill" not necessarily the only foundation upon which a murder charge can be layed in UK. Though, yes, a quick Google run seems to confirm at least that "felony murder", perse, has been abolished.


Mens rea is far more complex than black-and-white "intent". In fact, it can be a sin of omission or negligence as much as a sin of positive intent. For example, almost all convictions on a charge of death by dangerous driving do not posit that the accused deliberately set out to drive dangerously or to endanger the life of another hum an. Rather, the mens rea for this offence is usually that the accused should have realised that his/her driving was outside accepted limits of safety and general acceptability, and that such driving was unduly reckless. Therefore, the strict mens rea for this crime is usually one of negligence and omission, rather than any deliberate thought.

The issue of mens rea was also more complex in the recent trial of Vincent Tabak (for the murder/manslaughter of Jo Yeates) than most people realised. Most of the media erroneously reported that the crucial test for whether Tabak should be found guilty of murder was whether or not he intended to kill Jo Yeates when he choked her and placed his other hand over her mouth. But that was not actually the case at all. The actual test was whether or not Tabak's actions amounted to something that a reasonable person should have expected was likely to result in the death of the victim. Therefore, Tabak could have been being absolutely truthful when he said he didn't mean to kill Jo Yeates (although in reality I think he was lying in this regard), yet could still have been found guilty of murder. In this case, the mens rea is based on what a reasonable person should have thought to be the consequences of his/her actions: in Tabak's case, either he was negligent in not realising that his actions would likely have resulted in Jo's death, or he was lying when he said he didn't mean to kill her. Either way, this constitutes the mens rea for murder.

So, in the case of the murder of Meredith Kercher, let us suppose that Guede was holding the knife at Meredith's throat and she struggled against it, causing it to make the first neck wound; now, if that had been the only wound and it had been fatal, there would still have been a potential case for murder rather than manslaughter, even if Guede had truthfully claimed that he didn't mean to kill Meredith. A court might reasonably rule that holding a sharp knife to somebody's throat while sexually assaulting them is essentially recklessly endangering the victim's life, and that a reasonable person should therefore have realised that such an action could have resulted in the death of the victim. So in that instance, a murder conviction could have easily resulted, even without the second, clearly-deliberate stab that expedited Meredith's death.

(FWIW, once again, my theory of the moments before the stabbings is that Guede had manoeuvred Meredith at knifepoint onto her front or onto all fours in front of the wardrobe, with Guede kneeling on top of her or behind her with his knife at her throat in one hand. I think that Guede started to remove his trousers (pants) in preparation for a sexual assault, and started to remove Meredith's top and jeans. I think that he may have digitally penetrated her, or was in the process of removing her clothing with his free hand - either way, I think it was at this point that she began to struggle and shout out. I think that this was the catalyst for the first knife wound, which may indeed have been the sadly-inevitable outcome of Meredith struggling against Guede with the knife at her throat. I think that this caused Meredith to scream loudly, and that this is what caused Guede to inflict the second, deeper knife wound - through a mixture of panic, aggression and a desire to stop Meredith from screaming or resisting.)
 
Derren Brown is a magician. Everything he does is a trick.

His "debunking" is phony. The expanations he gives are faux. And simply a magician's misdirection to distract you from the secret method he actually used.

The same camp as Randi? Hardly. Derren is a big fan of Uri Gellar. Who is the very personification of "anti-Randiness".


I don't think you understand Derren Brown or his motivation very well at all! He most assuredly is NOT a fan of Uri Gellar's - although he has a certain professional respect for Gellar's showmanship and ability to willfully deceive huge sections of the public. In fact, Brown has devoted many programmes and articles to debunking those who claim extraordinary powers or psychic abilities. You sound like you are totally unfamiliar with this side of his work. Here's one to whet your appetite:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2010/may/08/screen-burn-derren-brown-investigates

http://derrenbrown.co.uk/blog/tv-shows/derren-brown-investigates/man-contacts-dead/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhYS...CNEdMk3xNEm-2VkrleFislRf_V7ccg&has_verified=1

(rights-protected, unfortunately)

The "The Experiments" shows, including the one about false confessions that I referenced yesterday, are straight studies in human psychology, which is an area in which Derren Brown is extremely interested. There's no deception involved in the way the programmes are presented to the viewer.

Might I suggest that you read Brown's excellent book "Tricks of the Mind" for a further insight into his motivation, methods and point of view. I think you might be surprised.
 
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Thanks for the explanation about the mens rea, anyway. I think your suggested scenario is extremely plausible.

Rolfe.
 
Thanks for the explanation about the mens rea, anyway. I think your suggested scenario is extremely plausible.

Rolfe.


You're welcome - I hope it didn't sound too didactic! :D

And yes, I agree that my suggested scenario is very plausible! It's also worth bearing in mind that (in my view) it is perfectly possible that Guede managed to manoeuvre Meredith into this position - either lying on her front or on her hands and knees - without making any more than light physical contact with her. I think that he could easily have got her into this position using nothing more than the brandishing of his knife, aggressive threatening verbal cues, and perhaps some physical prodding.
 
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