Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

[Perpetual Student]

The magnets in this animation have both B and H fields. If the magnets are moved far enough apart, virtually all lines will break and reconnect. I can't say much about what happens in solar flares, but the "reconnection" I am seeing here seems both real and inevitable.

http://my.execpc.com/~rhoadley/motion09.htm

Mozina, as usual you dodged and danced to avoid my questions about the reconnection of the magnetic field lines shown above.

 

[Michael Mozina]

The magnets in this animation have both B and H fields. If the magnets are moved far enough apart, virtually all lines will break and reconnect. I can't say much about what happens in solar flares, but the "reconnection" I am seeing here seems both real and inevitable.

http://my.execpc.com/~rhoadley/motion09.htm

Mozina, as usual you dodged and danced to avoid my questions about the reconnection of the magnetic field lines shown above.

No, actually I answered your questions *VERY THOROUGHLY*, and completely, but you absolutely, positively refuse to differentiate between H lines and B lines, "attraction/repulsion" and "reconnection". Typical. I love how you folks bitch at me about making an argument based on pretty pictures rather than mathematics and then you turn right around do it yourselves!

FYI, you already agreed that the magnets simply attract and repulse if we don't touch them together. The only magnetic lines that "reconnect" by physically reconnecting the magnets together are the H lines. You don't like it, so you DODGED THE ANSWER!

 

[Michael Mozina]

Guess again.

http://theory.physics.helsinki.fi/~plasma/ex10/Reconnection_10.pdf

Why? I was right.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Ooops. I guess you're actually right. It looks like Giovanelli started the idea but Dungey was the one that actually kludged the term. Oh well. Sorry Ronald.

 

[Michael Mozina]

http://books.google.com/books?id=5v...&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

FYI, I guess Giovanelli was also the first one to suggest that the process involved *ELECTRICAL DISCHARGES*.

 

[Michael Mozina]

The magnets in this animation have both B and H fields.

Which is which?

 

[Humanzee]

Thanks for posting the animation Perpetual Student.

In the animation two B field loops merge to become a single loop.

Two loops...


...become a single loop


Isn't that B field connection?

And isn't the H field represented by the dark lines seen inside the magnets?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Thanks for posting the animation Perpetual Student.

In the animation two B field loops merge to become a single loop.

First of all, how do you know that is actually a B field line and not a H field line?

And isn't the H field represented by the dark lines seen inside the magnets?

I haven't a clue. You tell me.

 

[Humanzee]

Well B field lines never end, or rather, are loops. H field lines pass through the magnet and end at the south pole.

I'll just quote Wiki;
"Unlike B-field lines, which never end, the H-field lines due to a magnetic material begin in a region(s) of the magnet called the north pole pass through the magnet and/or outside of the magnet and ends in a different region of the material called the south pole. Near the north pole, therefore, all H-field lines point away from the north pole (whether inside the magnet or out) while near the south pole (whether inside the magnet or out) all H-field lines point toward the south pole. (The B-field lines, for comparison, form a closed loop going from south to north inside the magnet and from north to south outside the magnet)"

Seems like the black lines are H and the colored are B. Do you disagree? Regardless of the field do you agree my example is re-connection?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Well B field lines never end, or rather, are loops. H field lines pass through the magnet and end at the south pole.

I'll just quote Wiki;
"Unlike B-field lines, which never end, the H-field lines due to a magnetic material begin in a region(s) of the magnet called the north pole pass through the magnet and/or outside of the magnet and ends in a different region of the material called the south pole. Near the north pole, therefore, all H-field lines point away from the north pole (whether inside the magnet or out) while near the south pole (whether inside the magnet or out) all H-field lines point toward the south pole. (The B-field lines, for comparison, form a closed loop going from south to north inside the magnet and from north to south outside the magnet)"

Seems like the black lines are H and the colored are B. Do you disagree? Regardless of the field do you agree my example is re-connection?

I don't know. I don't even agree that the black lines are NECESSARILY H lines, or that any of the colors of the lines mean anything in particular. How do you know that the colors are even relevant?

Your citation would tend to FALSIFY your claim because it says that B fields do NOT have a beginning or ending whereas H lines do.

 

[Humanzee]

Alright. I'll look into that. I don't see where it is falsified however as the example in post 4527 doesn't show the B fields having a beginning or ending. Rather two continuous loops becoming one loop. That B field loop is continuing through the magnet.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Alright. I'll look into that.

Keep me posted.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Alright. I'll look into that. I don't see where it is falsified however as the example in post 4527 doesn't show the B fields having a beginning or ending. Rather two continuous loops becoming one loop. That B field loop is continuing through the magnet.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7729382&postcount=4473

FYI, in PS's two magnet experiment, he already agreed that while the magnets are apart the fields simply "attract" and "repulse". AFAIK, the only dispute relates to what happens when the magnets physically come together. I've already agreed that H lines can "reconnect" along with the solid magnets.

 

[Perpetual Student]

Thanks Humanzee for pursuing these questions.
All this discussion about which are B and which are H lines seems to be so much dodging and dancing. That same wikipedia article says, "Outside of a material (i.e., in vacuum) the B and H fields are indistinguishable."
It is clear that as the magnets are pulled apart the magnetic lines are breaking and reconnecting. So it does not matter; B and H are indistinguishable and they are breaking and reconnecting. What other excuses can Mozina come up with to avoid admitting that magnetic lines break and reconnect?
Actually, the simulations we have been looking at provide a nice visual for the process, but we knew that the lines must break and reconnect otherwise we would have to believe that the different configurations of the lines would come about by magic when this:

[N<<<<<<<S][N<<<<<<<S]

becomes this:

[N<<<<<<<S] ................................................. [N<<<<<<<<S]

(We all know what the magnetic lines associated with such magnets look like -- don't pretend and posture otherwise, Mozina)

 

[Perpetual Student]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7729382&postcount=4473

FYI, in PS's two magnet experiment, he already agreed that while the magnets are apart the fields simply "attract" and "repulse". AFAIK, the only dispute relates to what happens when the magnets physically come together. I've already agreed that H lines can "reconnect" along with the solid magnets.

I agreed that the magnets attract and repulse; nothing more. That has nothing to do with this question about the breaking an reconnecting lines. Stop dodging the question!

 

[Michael Mozina]

I agreed that the magnets attract and repulse; nothing more. That has nothing to do with this question about the breaking an reconnecting lines.

*BEFORE THEY TOUCH* are you claiming that your two magnets are doing anything other than attracting and repulsing? In other words, are you claiming that "reconnection" is a feature of "attraction and repulsion" and occurs during the attractive repulsive phase?

Stop dodging the question!

Irony overload. This whole problem is related to the second question that you refused to answer. I asked you WHEN the fields stop doing anything other than "attracting" and "repulsing" and actually begin "reconnecting". Care to stop dodging that question? I can't read your mind.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Thanks Humanzee for pursuing these questions.
All this discussion about which are B and which are H lines seems to be so much dodging and dancing. That same wikipedia article says, "Outside of a material (i.e., in vacuum) the B and H fields are indistinguishable."
It is clear that as the magnets are pulled apart the magnetic lines are breaking and reconnecting. So it does not matter; B and H are indistinguishable and they are breaking and reconnecting.

You know, it would be a WHOLE lot easier if you would simply be forthcoming about WHEN you think it changes from "attraction/repulsion" to "reconnection". I can only ASSUME that you're now confusing ordinary INDUCTION processes related to MOVING MAGNETS with 'magnetic reconnection'. I really suck at mind reading PS. If you answered my questions, I could clear up your confusion a lot faster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_magnetic_field

Are you claiming that MOVEMENTS of the magnets that cause that "breaking" you're talking about is something OTHER THAN an induction process?

 

[Perpetual Student]

*BEFORE THEY TOUCH* are you claiming that your two magnets are doing anything other than attracting and repulsing? In other words, are you claiming that "reconnection" is a feature of "attraction and repulsion" and occurs during the attractive repulsive phase?

Of course! How else can the magnetic lines change their topology, if lines are not broken and reconnected? However, whether reconnection is a "feature of attraction and repulsion" -- as you phrase it -- or whether it is a simultaneous event not involved in the forces -- I'll allow the physicists answer that. Clearly both attraction/repulsion occur while lines are breaking and reconnecting.

Irony overload. This whole problem is related to the second question that you refused to answer. I asked you WHEN the fields stop doing anything other than "attracting" and "repulsing" and actually begin "reconnecting". Care to stop dodging that question? I can't read your mind.

I have not dodged this question; it simply makes no sense. It seems to me to be a naive way of looking at this. I cannot imagine other than reconnecting happens as soon as there is any movement, even if it is on a microscopic level. You seem to be implying that attraction happens and then reconnection happens at different times, which makes no sense. As I said above, clearly both attraction/repulsion occur while lines are breaking and reconnecting.

 

[Perpetual Student]

You know, it would be a WHOLE lot easier if you would simply be forthcoming about WHEN you think it changes from "attraction/repulsion" to "reconnection". I can only ASSUME that you're now confusing ordinary INDUCTION processes related to MOVING MAGNETS with 'magnetic reconnection'. I really suck at mind reading PS. If you answered my questions, I could clear up your confusion a lot faster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotating_magnetic_field

Are you claiming that MOVEMENTS of the magnets that cause that "breaking" you're talking about is something OTHER THAN an induction process?

My confusion? The arrogance is palpable! What are you talking about? "Ordinary INDUCTION processes" do not exist. Induction is a property, not a process! You really need to learn a little fundamental electricity and magnetism to have this discussion. Buy a good freshman physics book and brush up or learn or whatever. After a few months come back here and admit your errors.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Thanks for posting the animation Perpetual Student.

In the animation two B field loops merge to become a single loop.

Two loops...
View attachment 23920

...become a single loop
View attachment 23921

Isn't that B field connection?

J W Dungey's 1958 paper (to which Michael Mozina refers almost daily) contains even clearer examples of magnetic reconnection in the B field. His Figure 2 shows a magnetic field in the shape of a "figure eight". That's the field produced by two current-carrying rods placed in parallel, in a vacuum.

In parts 1 and 2 of my simple derivation of magnetic reconnection, I derived equations for the B field around a single current-carrying rod; these equations or their equivalent are found in any decent textbook on electromagnetism. The equation for the B field in the vicinity of two current-carrying rods follows immediately by linear superposition, and I'll state that equation in part 3. When you graph that B field and some of its magnetic field lines, you get

That's just a more colorful version of Dungey's Figure 2 (except I haven't yet added the arrows that show the counter-clockwise direction of every magnetic field line in that graph; I should be able to add those arrows by Monday evening). Notice the two magnetic field lines that are almost touching at the neutral (totally black) point in the center. If you make a very small change to the current passing through the rods at the centers of the white disks, those two magnetic field lines will either withdraw from each other or merge to become a single magnetic field line.

(Whether they withdraw or merge depends on whether you reduce or increase the current in the rods. It also depends on the mathematical conventions you adopt for talking about the identity of those magnetic field lines, because magnetic field lines have no persistent identity in and of themselves. Indeed, some of the less thoughtful Electric Sun folk will tell you that magnetic field lines don't really exist, even as they insist that Gauss's law for magnetism says these non-existent lines can't merge or separate over time. )

Although people often speak of the merging and separation of magnetic field lines as magnetic reconnection, there's a more important notion that can't be dismissed as arbitrary or imaginary: When the topology of an entire magnetic field changes over time, the field is undergoing magnetic reconnection.