Religion is not evil

[tsig]

There are considerable numbers of people imprisoned for being religious. If that's to be used as evidence that religious people are more likely to be criminals it's fairly self-sustaining.

Where?

 

[Leumas]

"atheistic belief system"

Is that like hair styles for the bald?

 

[westprog]

The statistics are taken in countries like the USA, Canada, Australia, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, England, Germany and so on.

So you are saying that these countries imprison people for their religions?

I'm saying that there are countries that do.

 

[westprog]

Because there's no such thing as atheistic belief systems.

Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and explain it just one more time.

A belief system that includes, as a necessary element, the existence of god is a religious belief system.

A belief system that includes, as a necessary element, the non-existence of god is an atheistic belief system.

Other belief systems don't include or exclude the possibility of god. I wouldn't describe those as religious or atheistic.

A belief system that explicitly claims that atheism is true, together with other elements, can reasonably be described as an atheistic belief system. Marxist communism undoubtedly qualifies in both theory and practice.

Claiming that atheism is just the absence of belief doesn't affect this. Communism is much more than just the absence of a belief in god. It includes all kinds of beliefs about the nature of human society. It is quite obviously a belief system, and it's quite obviously atheistic. To claim the contrary is merely perverse.

 

[westprog]

That's the usual claim, not a belief in God so much as a belief in the rewards and/or punishments that God metes out.

There's also the belief that religious people are only good because they want the reward and to avoid the punishment. That's I suppose the atheist equivalent of the belief among religious people that atheists just do what they like.

 

[westprog]

"atheistic belief system"

Is that like hair styles for the bald?

I've explained this in detail now. I'm happy enough to engage with contrary arguments.

 

[Resume]

I've explained this in detail now. I'm happy enough to engage with contrary arguments.

Not really.

 

[westprog]

Not really.

Well, that's like a number of the one-liners that I would class in the "not an argument" category.

 

[Akhenaten]

Because there's no such thing as atheistic belief systems.

Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and explain it just one more time.

I don't need the benefit of your doubt, and you will, I predict, explain it many more times.

And you'll be just as wrong, every time, as you are now.

A belief system that includes, as a necessary element, the existence of god is a religious belief system.

Yes, that sounds about right.

A belief system that includes, as a necessary element, the non-existence of god is an atheistic belief system.

No, this is wrong. It's like saying that a stamp collecting system that includes, as a necessary element, the non-existence of stamps is an aphilatelic stamp collecting system.

Other belief systems don't include or exclude the possibility of god. I wouldn't describe those as religious or atheistic.

Neither would I. I'd describe those as something you just made up to pad your post out a bit.

A belief system that explicitly claims that atheism is true, together with other elements, can reasonably be described as an atheistic belief system. Marxist communism undoubtedly qualifies in both theory and practice.

The idea that atheism could be true or false is meaningless.

Claiming that atheism is just the absence of belief doesn't affect this.

So you say. You're quite wrong.

Communism is much more than just the absence of a belief in god. It includes all kinds of beliefs about the nature of human society. It is quite obviously a belief system, and it's quite obviously atheistic. To claim the contrary is merely perverse.

Communism? Why in the name of Isis are you bringing that up?

 

[Resume]

Well, that's like a number of the one-liners that I would class in the "not an argument" category.

Your classifications are not impressive. For instance the one about atheism being a belief system.

 

[Akhenaten]

That's the usual claim, not a belief in God so much as a belief in the rewards and/or punishments that God metes out.

There's also the belief that religious people are only good because they want the reward and to avoid the punishment.

What do you mean by 'also'? This is exactly what Pup wrote.

That's I suppose the atheist equivalent of the belief among religious people that atheists just do what they like.

You shouldn't. It's nonsense.

 

[Humes fork]

You didn't read my post carefully. Here it is, to refresh your memory:
I was talking about belief in the sense of faith, that is, belief in things that cannot be proved or disproved. Your examples do not fall into that category and, thus, do not refute my point. In addition, my comment about "don't demand that others believe the way they do" was about belief (remember that I'm using it in the sense of faith). And, in fact, many religions, and other groups, do demand that "others believe the way they do." Wars have been fought over the issue of conflicting beliefs.

But there are things we can't prove either way, but that are truth-apt. Which books were in the Great Library of Alexandria? Was the Bhagavad Gita there? It is possible, but can we we can't know for certain. And yet it is not true for some people but not for others. It either was there or it wasn't.

 

[westprog]

No, this is wrong. It's like saying that a stamp collecting system that includes, as a necessary element, the non-existence of stamps is an aphilatelic stamp collecting system.

The headlong retreat into analogy makes things unclear, but the implication seems to be that it's impossible to have a belief system that isn't religious, and if you believe something, believing in god goes with it. That seems quite an odd thing to say.

 

[westprog]

Communism? Why in the name of Isis are you bringing that up?

Because that is a belief system which includes, as an essential element, atheism.

For some reason, when discussing whether religion is overall harmful or not, what people do instead of religion shouldn't be considered in any way. That seems to me to be an over-theoretical approach.

 

[Resume]

Because that is a belief system which includes, as an essential element, atheism.

It's an economic philosophy.

 

[Akhenaten]

No, this is wrong. It's like saying that a stamp collecting system that includes, as a necessary element, the non-existence of stamps is an aphilatelic stamp collecting system.

The headlong retreat into analogy makes things unclear, but the implication seems to be that it's impossible to have a belief system that isn't religious, and if you believe something, believing in god goes with it.

Headlong retreat into analogy???

Okaaaaay.

That seems quite an odd thing to say.

It would be, which is why I didn't say it.

What you've described as the seeming implication in what I said is just a poorly constructed straw person, and they always have a certain oddness about them.

 

[Akhenaten]

Communism? Why in the name of Isis are you bringing that up?

Because that is a belief system which includes, as an essential element, atheism.

As Resume has pointed out, it's nothing of the sort.

Have you never heard of religious communes?

For some reason, when discussing whether religion is overall harmful or not, what people do instead of religion shouldn't be considered in any way. That seems to me to be an over-theoretical approach.

Do you seriously see communism as something that people do as an alternative to religion?

Really???

That's bizarre.

 

[Audible Click]

<snip>


Claiming that atheism is just the absence of belief doesn't affect this. Communism is much more than just the absence of a belief in god. It includes all kinds of beliefs about the nature of human society. It is quite obviously a belief system, and it's quite obviously atheistic. To claim the contrary is merely perverse.

This Communism reference is absurd and irrelevant and has nothing to do with the subject at hand. We are discussing your claim that atheists have a belief system. This would be antithetical to everything I've read about atheism and to what I know on a personal level. Atheism is the absence of a belief in any god/gods/deity/Bozo the Clown etc..

 

[Bill Thompson]

guns are not evil either

 

[Bill Thompson]

cancer is not evil too.