Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[RandFan]

What does this have to do with the fact that the picture you posted was completely misleading.

It's not misleading.

From the article:

It's hard to imagine a pair of people you would less want to hand a giant welfare check to — yet that's exactly what the Fed did. Just two months before the Macks bought their fancy carriage house in Manhattan, Christy and her pal Susan launched their investment initiative called Waterfall TALF. Neither seems to have any experience whatsoever in finance, beyond Susan's penchant for dabbling in thoroughbred racehorses. But with an upfront investment of $15 million, they quickly received $220 million in cash from the Fed, most of which they used to purchase student loans and commercial mortgages. The loans were set up so that Christy and Susan would keep 100 percent of any gains on the deals, while the Fed and the Treasury (read: the taxpayer) would eat 90 percent of the losses. Given out as part of a bailout program ostensibly designed to help ordinary people by kick-starting consumer lending, the deals were a classic heads-I-win, tails-you-lose investment.

It was simply a sweet-heart deal. No, not entirely risk free but the public bore most of the risk. I stand by the picture. No one offered to give me $220M to purchase loans where the public would eat 90% of any losses. You?

It gives the impression that these people were given 220 million dollars to do with as they pleased.

No it doesn't. It gives the impression that these two people, who are wives of wealthy businessmen, benefited from 220 million dollars of public money for no apparent reason other then they had connections to people who could fix them the deal. A fact not disclosed to the public.

I wasn't commenting on whether or not it was convenient. I was showing how you made a misleading statement.

That it is convenient belies your point.

 

[RandFan]

Funny that Eisenhower, a doddering old coot by the end of his presidency, was fed these words by speechwriters as though someone else was actually occupying the White House for the previous eight years. This phrase has been dropped endlessly since that time as though it imbues the user with superior gravitas. Nixon stopped the Vietnam War too. We know this because he said he was going to in a speech once.

I'd like to respond but I can't find a point to respond to. I'm not sure if you are attempting to invalidate Eisenhower's point via ad hominem or criticizing me for being too generous to Eisenhower.

FTR: I'm not seeking gravitas I'm trying to make a point, a point you dodged in your attempt to either ridicule me and/or Eisenhower (still not sure what your point is). I don't give a damn who wrote the speech (as if Eisenhower was incapable of understanding or providing the crux of the speech to the writers assuming it was written by someone else) I care about whether his speech is valid and relevant. Do you have something to offer in that regard?

 

[stilicho]

....

Thousands could also easily be 5000+ and you have only one source for the number of anarchists being 100 which is obviously a very rough estimate, other sources have said it was just "dozens" of anarchists, so the number might be substantially less then 1%. For comparison more then 3% of Americans are in jail or on probation and Oakland is a notoriously high crime city so I bet the number is much higher then 3% there. To put it differently, the percentage of criminals in Occupy Oakland may be substantially lower then the percentage of criminals in the City Of Oakland.

Who said they were anarchists? Anarchists actually hold a set of identifiable beliefs. These are simply criminals who are a major part of the Occupy "movement".

We appear to be agreeing that between 1% and 5% of the "movement" are simply criminals. The next stage is to ask ourselves what the "movement" is going to do about this growing problem. Will they ask for the assistance of the authorities to identify and remove these people?

 

[eeyore1954]

It's not misleading.

From the article:

It was simply a sweet-heart deal. No, not entirely risk free but the public bore most of the risk. I stand by the picture. No one offered to give me $220M to purchase loans where the public would eat 90% of any losses. You?

No it doesn't. It gives the impression that these two people, who are wives of wealthy businessmen, benefited from 220 million dollars of public money for no apparent reason other then they had connections to people who could fix them the deal. A fact not disclosed to the public.

That it is convenient belies your point.

I was not claiming the article was misleading about the deal. I was commenting on the picture you posted. When the average citizen see that picture they will assume those women were given 220,000,000 dollars that should have gone to help the poor or someone. In fact that money was loaned to them to help stabilize the economy. Which supposedly would have helped all citizens. Whether or not that was an effective or appropriate plan is another question.

The fact that is was as you say convenient to destroy the files in question does not belie my point that your statement

then they destroy all records of the investigation. No, I'm NOT making that up.

is not true.
There are electronic records of the preliminary and the records of any cases that were investigated are not destroyed.

 

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by stilicho
Funny that Eisenhower, a doddering old coot by the end of his presidency, was fed these words by speechwriters as though someone else was actually occupying the White House for the previous eight years. This phrase has been dropped endlessly since that time as though it imbues the user with superior gravitas. Nixon stopped the Vietnam War too. We know this because he said he was going to in a speech once.

I'd like to respond but I can't find a point to respond to. I'm not sure if you are attempting to invalidate Eisenhower's point via ad hominem or criticizing me for being too generous to Eisenhower.

Eisenhower's quote is invalid. Who was the president of the USA during the time he is alleging this "complex" seized control? Oh...it was Ike himself. So that's a fail.

 

[daredelvis]

Eisenhower's quote is invalid. Who was the president of the USA during the time he is alleging this "complex" seized control? Oh...it was Ike himself. So that's a fail.

Who was principal of my high school during the time it is alleged that this "complex" seized control? Oh... my high school didn't exist then... So that's a logic fail.

Yes, the president has absolute control of everything.

Daredelvis

 

[RandFan]

In fact that money was loaned to them to help stabilize the economy.

That was the pretext.

Which supposedly would have helped all citizens.

Ostensibly.

Whether or not that was an effective or appropriate plan is another question.

One could argue that given an absurd response to the problem some people recognized the ability to exploit an ineffective and inappropriate plan.

The fact that is was as you say convenient to destroy the files in question does not belie my point that your statement is not true.

It speaks for itself. DON'T DESTROY DOCUMENTS. Is that really such a hard thing to understand? Can we now go back and see if the documents implicated anyone in criminality. The most innocent judgement is that the actions violate the principle of avoiding the appearance of impropriety especially when the self same investigators go on to work for the firms being investigated.

There are electronic records of the preliminary and the records of any cases that were investigated are not destroyed.

Dude, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, if the preliminary investigation revealed cause the investigators then asked the firms in question take it from there and handle it in house. So there would be no records for an investigation.

 

[RandFan]

Eisenhower's quote is invalid. Who was the president of the USA during the time he is alleging this "complex" seized control? Oh...it was Ike himself. So that's a fail.

Wait, what? He wasn't reporting that a "complex" had seized control. He was providing a warning. Big difference. BTW: Let's assume that Eisenhower was reporting his failure, it wouldn't invalidate his point. You are still engaging in ad hominem. It wouldn't render it "invalid" or irrelevant. Try again.

Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

I think we have since failed. And we failed for banks. If they are too big to fail then they are unelected power and unwarranted influence.

 

[eeyore1954]

It speaks for itself. DON'T DESTROY DOCUMENTS. Is that really such a hard thing to understand? Can we now go back and see if the documents implicated anyone in criminality. The most innocent judgement is that the actions violate the principle of avoiding the appearance of impropriety especially when the self same investigators go on to work for the firms being investigated.

So you will not respond to whether on not they destroyed all documents as you claimed. That is ok.

I agree that they probably should not have destroyed documents. Although there is also something to be said if every tip or lead required a file to be kept the document storage could be a problem. But for every tip or complaint that was looked into there were electronic records kept.

Can we now go back and see if the documents implicated anyone in criminality? That is being done in fact a report was released this week.

Most of these things you are saying the movement is asking to be looked into are being done but I don't think you like the results to date of the various investigations.

 

[Virus]

[qimg]http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/5761/owsmessage.jpg[/qimg]

Found another sign that approvingly non-anecdotal?




Video: OWS protesters speak out about violence and douchebaggery in the camp.

 

[Alt+F4]

We appear to be agreeing that between 1% and 5% of the "movement" are simply criminals. The next stage is to ask ourselves what the "movement" is going to do about this growing problem. Will they ask for the assistance of the authorities to identify and remove these people?

In NYC the proposal is to turn Zuccotti Park into a Chinese commune from the 1950s and 1960s. Strip away people's privacy by taking down the individual tents and replacing them with a few giant tents (segregated by sex).

 

[JihadJane]

With more than 70 years activist experience, 96 year old, Detroit philosopher, Grace Lee Boggs, offers this message to the 99%.

http://vimeo.com/31519206

"Out of the protests they have to move to another stage that doesn't depend on exposing the enemy. We need to reinvent work - so that we don't think that having a job and being able to pay the bills is what being a human being is all about..."
....

"not being satisfied with rebellion but understand we are at a turning point in history where we need revolution...and revolution means reinventing culture."

 

[Alt+F4]

With more than 70 years activist experience, 96 year old, Detroit philosopher, Grace Lee Boggs, offers this message to the 99%.

http://vimeo.com/31519206

"Out of the protests they have to move to another stage that doesn't depend on exposing the enemy. We need to reinvent work - so that we don't think that having a job and being able to pay the bills is what being a human being is all about..."
....

"not being satisfied with rebellion but understand we are at a turning point in history where we need revolution...and revolution means reinventing culture."

Yes, unlike all uninformed people who think that OWS is about fixing the problems on Wall Street or government, this old lady has got it right, OWS is about reinventing all aspects of civilization into a neo-Marxist state based largely on a Maoist view of society.

 

[jhunter1163]

I have a simple question: how much of the $220 million has been paid back? I don't have the answer, and I would really like to know.

ETA: The article says that $150 million remained unpaid as of "last fall". I don't know where to look for more current information.

 

[applecorped]

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can
But when you want money
for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait

 

[RandFan]

So you will not respond to whether on not they destroyed all documents as you claimed.

I don't give a damn. It's entirely irrelevant. A red herring. You want to focus on the fact that these were just prelimenary records as if it is significant. It's not.

That is being done in fact a report was released this week.

And we can read the destroyed records because? There's a reason why we don't destroy records. Look, the investigation might uncover what was discovered before but I've a question, how cooperative are the investigators that are now being investigated? No harm no foul right? Destroy the records and hey, if they can't figure it out no problem. Sheesh.

Most of these things you are saying the movement is asking to be looked into are being done....

Proof that most of them are?

 

[RandFan]

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're doing what we can
But when you want money
for people with minds that hate
All I can tell is brother you have to wait

Sorry, beat you to the reference all ready. I've little doubt John would be happy with OWS. Not with all of it just as he wasn't happy with all that was happening during his time which is why this song is so perfect for those who are pro OWS. John wouldn't want you to label him as opposed to the civil rights movement just because there were elements that were violent and hateful. IOW, don't dismiss the entire group for the excesses of some.

Thanks for bringing the references back.

 

[RandFan]

I have a simple question: how much of the $220 million has been paid back? I don't have the answer, and I would really like to know.

ETA: The article says that $150 million remained unpaid as of "last fall". I don't know where to look for more current information.

I'd also like to know if every cent was used to purchase the loans and how much was earned from those loans? I think we are owed an accounting. I wonder if we would have ever known if it had been kept secret.

 

[portlandatheist]

With more than 70 years activist experience, 96 year old, Detroit philosopher, Grace Lee Boggs, offers this message to the 99%.

http://vimeo.com/31519206

"Out of the protests they have to move to another stage that doesn't depend on exposing the enemy. We need to reinvent work - so that we don't think that having a job and being able to pay the bills is what being a human being is all about..."
....

"not being satisfied with rebellion but understand we are at a turning point in history where we need revolution...and revolution means reinventing culture."

Delusions of persecution and delusions of grandeur.

 

[applecorped]

Sorry, beat you to the reference all ready. I've little doubt John would be happy with OWS. Not with all of it just as he wasn't happy with all that was happening during his time which is why this song is so perfect for those who are pro OWS. John wouldn't want you to label him as opposed to the civil rights movement just because there were elements that were violent and hateful. IOW, don't dismiss the entire group for the excesses of some.

Thanks for bringing the references back.

John would hop in his limo and drive away.