Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[Howie Felterbush]

I started reading your post then I saw Occutard, so I'm afraid I didn't read it. I'm sorry.

That's OK.

We all have our blind spots.

 

[Brainster]

This is fairly standard protesting practice, and has been for a long time. Strikes basically work entirely off this premise. The goal of strikers isn't to make sure schools don't run, or x product doesn't get made, but to use the negative consequences of this to put weight behind their demands.

At least in the case of strikes and other protests, there is an end goal in sight, which the powers that be can grant to end the protest, whether it's to end the war, or to grant pay raises or whatever. There is no end goal in this particular protest. Supporters latch onto whatever sign agrees with their view, and ignore the bazillion other signs. If the Volcker Rule was instituted, would the protests stop? If the millionnaire tax was passed, would the protests stop? If Randfan's personal laundry list of demands was acceded to, would the protests stop?

The answer is no, because it appears that the protests themselves are the goal.

 

[eeyore1954]

I'm not sure how that clears up anything. Nothing in your post explains how facts were mixed up. So what if they were passive investors? Did they benefit? I also don't quite understand the logic, "if we didn't incentivize them they would have found other uses for the money"?

I've not read the article but based on your summary I'm not sure if you understand its significance. Perhaps you could clear it up. If not I'll look at it latter. As it is, it looks like rather weak.

I am not sure if you understand the significance of what the TALF program was. Perhaps you can clear this up. As it is, it looks like rather weak.


Just kidding but that is the way you seem to operate. You made a very similar comment to I believe a poster named respect.

It's easy to argue via link especially when you are not even able to understand the content of the link.

I do understand the TALF program, I do understand why it was available to large investors the way it was, I don't necesarily agree with how it was administered or even if it was necessary but it was not the evil monster it was portrayed to be by Matt Taibbi.

On a more serious note the picture you posted was entirely misleading.

Another post from you about a Taibbi article was also very misleading

It's been done. Turns out that the appropriate authorities are promised cushy jobs after they leave the public sector by the very people they are supposed to investigate, so they investigate, ask the the financial institutions to self regulate and then they destroy all records of the investigation. No, I'm NOT making that up.

They do not destroy all records of the investigations.
They were destroying documents from the quick examination that was supposed to determine if an investigation is necessary.
I wonder how many people do you think are easily bought and are corrupt. I don't doubt there are some cases like this in the SEC and there have been some corrupt people.

 

[stokes234]

At least in the case of strikes and other protests, there is an end goal in sight, which the powers that be can grant to end the protest, whether it's to end the war, or to grant pay raises or whatever. There is no end goal in this particular protest. Supporters latch onto whatever sign agrees with their view, and ignore the bazillion other signs. If the Volcker Rule was instituted, would the protests stop? If the millionnaire tax was passed, would the protests stop? If Randfan's personal laundry list of demands was acceded to, would the protests stop?

The answer is no, because it appears that the protests themselves are the goal.

How do you know that the answer is no? I would have thought that if the government was seen to be doing something substantial about inequality in the USA, the protests would run out of steam fairly quickly. You don't have to appease everyone in a protest to make it go away, just enough of them that the rest lose motivation.

 

[RandFan]

Occupy Oakland

 

[RandFan]

But are you ready to acknowledge that Taibbi doesn't know what he's talking about?

A Blanket acknowledgement? Hell no.

I noticed what you did there; you snipped out the part where I showed that he was wrong about defaults on commercial mortgages.

Yeah, as if you've responded to even a fraction of the points I've made. You live in a glass house sir.

And on your precious Occupy Movement, did you notice that one of the things Obamaville Oakland "accomplished" yesterday was to shut down the Port of Oakland? Is that going to help the economy recover?

If it takes shutting down the port for a time to get long term reform then it's easily worth the cost.

Your goal, which is for the economy to get back to the good old days of Clinton, is not their goal. Their goal is to smash the system even worse.

They are some. The powers that be can put an end to this now. Stop the BS. Do the job of the people.

 

[RandFan]

I do understand the TALF program, I do understand why it was available to large investors the way it was, I don't necesarily agree with how it was administered or even if it was necessary but it was not the evil monster it was portrayed to be by Matt Taibbi.

Let's see, drive the economy into a ditch by trying to enrich one's self using sketchy loans and risky investments, Having driven the economy into a ditch find ways of enriching yourself and others at tax payers expense. Nope, nothing to see here. Move on.

They were destroying documents from the quick examination that was supposed to determine if an investigation is necessary.

How convenient.

 

[RandFan]

There is no end goal in this particular protest.

If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth. --Joseph Goebbels

 

[RandFan]

You act like this was the intent. I can assure you it was not.

I don't give a rat's ass if it was the intent. Why the hell does intent matter? Look, you let a pedophile babysit your child it's hardly an excuse to say, "we'll, it wasn't my intent for the pedophile to rape the child".

Are you @#$%ing kidding me?

Regarding the asinine policies and regulatory agencies that contributed to this foreseeable cluster @#$%

Reckless indifference?
Fiduciary responsibility?
Gutted Regulation?
Lack of Oversight?
Ethics?
Morality?
A god damn conscience?
Hellooooo? Anyone home?

I sure as hell don't need intent to criticize. I just need malfeasance and incompetence coupled with greed.

BTW: the greed I can live with. I'm not naive though I don't mind others criticizing greed. Raising awareness can be a good thing perhaps human nature or society or both will some day change and capricious greed will be seen as anachronistic. Until then I follow the admonition of Reagan "trust but verify" (don't let the fox guard the hen house) and the warning of Eisenhower (beware the military industrial complex) which can be applied to any industry. Once that industry becomes an end to itself and the politicians are beholden to the industry then we are largely @#$%ed.

 

[stilicho]

OOh, 5%. Man, that tar brush sure is thick.

What per cent do you need to acknowledge the criminal element within the "movement"? How many rapes is enough?

 

[TruthersLie]

If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth. --Joseph Goebbels

Godwin much?

 

[stilicho]

See, substantial criticisms start with the fact they are really proposing no viable solutions or performing the function of what the TP did: driving the base of a big tent party to their direction and getting their policies enacted.

I explained that here in point form:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7711061&postcount=1008

The increasingly criminal behaviour of the "movement" is quickly drowning out the much more tangible and legitimate criticisms. If you were building an organisation--political party, business, baseball team, whatever--you could include Occupy as a case study in exactly how not to do it. I'd recommend they all read Douglas Hyde's Dedication and Leadership to see how it's really supposed to be done.

Unless, of course, they simply want to break windows, engage in sexual assault, and battle police.

 

[theprestige]

Occupy leaders called the violent demonstrators 'anarchists' and said they were not part of the movement.

• Who are these alleged "leaders of the movement"?
• Is there any evidence they speak for the movement, or that they can legitimately declare certain factions non-representative the movement?
• If they really are leaders of the movement, will we see complaints of "broad brush" or "propaganda" if anybody describes their policies and positions as being representative of the movement?

 

[TruthersLie]

• Who are these alleged "leaders of the movement"?
• Is there any evidence they speak for the movement, or that they can legitimately declare certain factions non-representative the movement?
• If they really are leaders of the movement, will we see complaints of "broad brush" or "propaganda" if anybody describes their policies and positions as being representative of the movement?

I hate using foxnews as a source... but apparently some of these "leaders" are former ACORN members...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/0...orkers-and-shredding-documents-after-exposed/

and wow...it looks like they have been shredding and destroying documents which support the claims that they are one of the groups pushing this... I am shocked, shocked to see people using underhanded tactics

 

[stilicho]

....the warning of Eisenhower (beware the military industrial complex)....

Funny that Eisenhower, a doddering old coot by the end of his presidency, was fed these words by speechwriters as though someone else was actually occupying the White House for the previous eight years. This phrase has been dropped endlessly since that time as though it imbues the user with superior gravitas. Nixon stopped the Vietnam War too. We know this because he said he was going to in a speech once.

 

[eeyore1954]

Let's see, drive the economy into a ditch by trying to enrich one's self using sketchy loans and risky investments, Having driven the economy into a ditch find ways of enriching yourself and others at tax payers expense. Nope, nothing to see here. Move on.

What does this have to do with the fact that the picture you posted was completely misleading. It gives the impression that these people were given 220 million dollars to do with as they pleased. The article does not give that impression.

They were destroying documents from the quick examination that was supposed to determine if an investigation is necessary.

Originally Posted by RandFan
How convenient

I wasn't commenting on whether or not it was convenient. I was showing how you made a misleading statement.

Originally Posted by RandFan
so they investigate, ask the the financial institutions to self regulate and then they destroy all records of the investigation. No, I'm NOT making that up.

 

[stilicho]

What does this have to do with the fact that the picture you posted was completely misleading. It gives the impression that these people were given 220 million dollars to do with as they pleased. The article does not give that impression.

....

But the important question is: were you "super pissed off"?

 

[daredelvis]

I hate using foxnews as a source... but apparently some of these "leaders" are former ACORN members...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/0...orkers-and-shredding-documents-after-exposed/

and wow...it looks like they have been shredding and destroying documents which support the claims that they are one of the groups pushing this... I am shocked, shocked to see people using underhanded tactics

OMG ACORN members?!?!? What does that matter? Why do you hate using FoxNews as a source (for unsourced allegations of shredding)? It doesn't follow from you're glee about teh ACORN being implicated.

Daredelvis

 

[curi0us]

What on earth are the Oakland school boards and city administrators thinking?

http://www.thestar.com/article/1080531--occupy-oakland-protests-paralyze-major-u-s-port

The mayor of Oakland is actually encouraging these nuts. Sounds like a great place to open a business.

The mayor is siding with protesters now because she supported the police against the protesters before and then the police lied to her and the public about what happened the night Scott Olsen was injured.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/us/protest-in-oakland-turns-violent.html

To argue that these individuals are not a part of the Occupy "movement" is a lie. That report says that the number of protesters counted into the "thousands" which could be as few as 2,000. If so, the per cent of criminals included in the "movement" could be as high as 5%. This doesn't include the rapists, thieves and drug dealers.

Thousands could also easily be 5000+ and you have only one source for the number of anarchists being 100 which is obviously a very rough estimate, other sources have said it was just "dozens" of anarchists, so the number might be substantially less then 1%. For comparison more then 3% of Americans are in jail or on probation and Oakland is a notoriously high crime city so I bet the number is much higher then 3% there. To put it differently, the percentage of criminals in Occupy Oakland may be substantially lower then the percentage of criminals in the City Of Oakland.

 

[RandFan]

Godwin much?

A.) I didn't accuse anyone of being Hitler or a Nazi. B.) Godwin isn't an error in logic. C.) Godwin is a prediction (namely that the longer the thread the more likely someone will accuse someone else of being Hitler or a Nazi. D.) I don't subscribe to the notion that Nazi or Hitler references have any per se meaning or relevance as to the person providing the references.

But thanks for playing. I do like to point out Godwin from time to time.