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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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I think all this guff is fascinating in its exposure of the mysticism behind ‘American exceptionalism’.

To the dogmatic exceptionalist, US presidents are like wizards. They can’t possibly die as a result of something as mundane as a determined nutter taking advantage of fallible security procedures. It HAS to be an incredibly elaborate plot involving nefarious elements within the state plotting with its enemies because what else has the power to get through the magic protective force field that God and Liberty has laid over the American System of Government?

And because presidents are magic, their murders are such earth-shattering events (calling the death of one man, no matter how prominent, ‘the Crime of the Century’ in the century of the Holocaust and the Khmer Rouge is, frankly, disgusting) that they can be regarded as some kind of cosmic rupture. Which is why Kennedy’s death is so often pointed to, by both right and left-wing conspiracy nutters, as The Moment When It All Went Wrong.

That’s why conspiracists fight so hard and get so emotional. If Kennedy’s death was a stupid, random event whose political consequences are ambiguous and arguable (would Vietnam really have gone all that differently? Would he really have been as strident on civil rights as LBJ?) then…why…then it might be that the US is…just another country! And how can that be!?!?!?
 
Matt the Poet said:
I think all this guff is fascinating in its exposure of the mysticism behind ‘American exceptionalism’.

To the dogmatic exceptionalist, US presidents are like wizards. They can’t possibly die as a result of something as mundane as a determined nutter taking advantage of fallible security procedures. It HAS to be an incredibly elaborate plot involving nefarious elements within the state plotting with its enemies because what else has the power to get through the magic protective force field that God and Liberty has laid over the American System of Government?

And because presidents are magic, their murders are such earth-shattering events (calling the death of one man, no matter how prominent, ‘the Crime of the Century’ in the century of the Holocaust and the Khmer Rouge is, frankly, disgusting) that they can be regarded as some kind of cosmic rupture. Which is why Kennedy’s death is so often pointed to, by both right and left-wing conspiracy nutters, as The Moment When It All Went Wrong.

That’s why conspiracists fight so hard and get so emotional. If Kennedy’s death was a stupid, random event whose political consequences are ambiguous and arguable (would Vietnam really have gone all that differently? Would he really have been as strident on civil rights as LBJ?) then…why…then it might be that the US is…just another country! And how can that be!?!?!?
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So, exactly, what is your point?
 
Robert Prey said:
A ridiculous question.
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No, it was a valid question based on your ridiculous assertions. Your running away from the question demonstrates your acknowledgment that you've engaged in ridiculous innuendo which you can't back up.

What is your single best piece of evidence for a bullet coming from the grassy knoll?
 
Robert Prey said:
"You appraoch this conversation and one assumes the topic in general with your conclusion in mind, and any look only for the evidence to support that conclussion. Any questions that counter it you avoid. Any evidence to counter it try to invalidate with out further evidence."

Exactly how the Warren Commission approached and carried out it's "mandate."
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If you were able to prove this (which you have not…) why exactly would it be wrong for the commission to do it but ok for you to do it?
 
So to sum up the accusations so far; there must have been a conspiracy, despite the "evidence" not matching the accusers own definition of a conspiracy, Then we have circular logic. The warren commission was a cover up, proven by being written by liars, but we know they were liars because of the commission.

Not very good. We are missing;
1) evidence of conspiracy
2) evidence the warren commission was confirmation biased.
3) evidence the commission lies.
4) evidence of the "actual" motives of the commission.
5) the name of the individual accused who "worked for LBJ"
6) evidence posters are allowed to ask one question or offer only one piece of evidence at the time.
7) evidence of a second shooter (as implied by the document RP quoted)

Other than all of that it is... well it isn't anything at the moment is it?
 
Robert Prey said:
So, exactly, what is your point?
Click to expand...

That the conspiracies you and others posit are not just unsupported by the evidence, but are logically outlandish and have no reason to exist except to make more of the event in question than needs to be made. There have been many presidents, and not a few, doubtless, intensely disliked by members of their administration. And yet this one inspired the squabbling factions of Washington’s government to unite and:

1) Engage a cabal of shady characters to kill Kennedy, despite the fact that this cabal has significantly less personal access to the president than the conspirators themselves.
2) Approve a plan where the deed is done in public, in front of thousands of camera-equipped witnesses, leading to an investigation conducted under intense public scrutiny.
3) Secure the co-operation of the entire local police department in staging an elaborate man-hunt for someone they have no prior reason to suspect of doing the deed.
4) Prevent the accused assassin from testifying to his innocence by arranging yet another highly public (televised, no less) murder.
5) Ensure, despite the enormity and complexity of what it was they were doing, that not one person directly involved in this incredible chain of events has ever mentioned anything definitive about it then or since.

All this to ensure the death of a man known to have a serious chronic illness - if he really did need to be assassinated for some reason it could plausibly have been arranged for him to have taken an overdose of medication or simply to have ‘collapsed’ in the Whitehouse with infinitely less public scrutiny and suspicion.

The truth of this is that as long as there have been national figures there have been nutters who wish them dead, and despite the best intentions of those who protect them a very, very few will, like nicotine molecules eventually hitting the right gene at the right time, manage to get through the defences. You want Kennedy, and his death, to have been special, but really it was just plain bad luck.
 
Robert Prey said:
"2.Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.

3.The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy."

That sort of contradicts the WC and also the rest of the HSCA conclusions and your own as well. Thanks.
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No, actually it doesn't. Both the WC and HSCA concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald shot and killed JFK. On that they agree. The WC "found no evidence that either Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby was part of any conspiracy, domestic or foreign, to assassinate President Kennedy" which, as I said, is not the same as saying there was no conspiracy.

And how does the HSCA finding of a probable conspiracy (based on evidence that was later discredited) to kill JFK contradict it's other conclusions? I notice you didn't bold the last part of paragraph B3.

The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy.
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The "other gunman" being the Grassy Knoll shooter.

So the WC and the HSCA agreed on the following points: LHO shot and killed JFK. No evidence of a conspiracy involving the Soviet Government, the Cuban Government, anti-Castro Cuban groups,organized crime, the FBI, CIA, Secret Service or any other governmental body could be found.

The sole disagreement between the WC and the HSAC was based on the now discredited acoustic evidence.

The acoustic evidence was covered in the ABC-BBC program The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy.

 
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Matt the Poet said:
I think all this guff is fascinating in its exposure of the mysticism behind ‘American exceptionalism’.

To the dogmatic exceptionalist, US presidents are like wizards. They can’t possibly die as a result of something as mundane as a determined nutter taking advantage of fallible security procedures. It HAS to be an incredibly elaborate plot involving nefarious elements within the state plotting with its enemies because what else has the power to get through the magic protective force field that God and Liberty has laid over the American System of Government?

And because presidents are magic, their murders are such earth-shattering events (calling the death of one man, no matter how prominent, ‘the Crime of the Century’ in the century of the Holocaust and the Khmer Rouge is, frankly, disgusting) that they can be regarded as some kind of cosmic rupture. Which is why Kennedy’s death is so often pointed to, by both right and left-wing conspiracy nutters, as The Moment When It All Went Wrong.

That’s why conspiracists fight so hard and get so emotional. If Kennedy’s death was a stupid, random event whose political consequences are ambiguous and arguable (would Vietnam really have gone all that differently? Would he really have been as strident on civil rights as LBJ?) then…why…then it might be that the US is…just another country! And how can that be!?!?!?
Click to expand...

(referring to the bolded part) That´s because, to the Dogmatic Exceptionalist (also known as the Real God-Fearing American Patriot), since none of these other crimes involved killing American citizens, they don´t really count, not as much as killing the anointed head of the Church Of The US of A does.
 
Walter Ego said:
No, actually it doesn't. Both the WC and HSCA concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald shot and killed JFK. On that they agree. The WC "found no evidence that either Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby was part of any conspiracy, domestic or foreign, to assassinate President Kennedy" which, as I said, is not the same as saying there was no conspiracy.

And how does the HSCA finding of a probable conspiracy (based on evidence that was later discredited) to kill JFK contradict it's other conclusions? I notice you didn't bold the last part of paragraph B3.



The "other gunman" being the Grassy Knoll shooter.

So the WC and the HSCA agreed on the following points: LHO shot and killed JFK. No evidence of a conspiracy involving the Soviet Government, the Cuban Government, anti-Castro Cuban groups,organized crime, the FBI, CIA, Secret Service or any other governmental body could be found.

The sole disagreement between the WC and the HSAC was based on the now discredited acoustic evidence.
Click to expand...

The HSCA conclusions are in conflict with itself betraying a committee report of compromise. And at least one investigator bases his conspiracy conclusions on the Odio incident, and not on acoustics. And although the acoustic tests were discredited by some other entity, they were then re-credited by another. I don't and won't get into that stuff because when you have to rely on "experts" it's one against the other. A lot of that stuff including acoustics, faked autopsy photos and x-rays, computer re-enactments, even finger prints can be ascribed as just so much 20th century witchcraft.
 
But Gaeton Fonzi also believes the Corsican hitmen tale from The Men Who Killed Kennedy "documentery" is the most likely scenario, one that does not jibe with the Odio incident at all. Gaeton Fonzi just really wants there to be a conspiracy.
 
Matt the Poet said:
That the conspiracies you and others posit are not just unsupported by the evidence, but are logically outlandish and have no reason to exist except to make more of the event in question than needs to be made. There have been many presidents, and not a few, doubtless, intensely disliked by members of their administration. And yet this one inspired the squabbling factions of Washington’s government to unite and:

1) Engage a cabal of shady characters to kill Kennedy, despite the fact that this cabal has significantly less personal access to the president than the conspirators themselves.
2) Approve a plan where the deed is done in public, in front of thousands of camera-equipped witnesses, leading to an investigation conducted under intense public scrutiny.
3) Secure the co-operation of the entire local police department in staging an elaborate man-hunt for someone they have no prior reason to suspect of doing the deed.
4) Prevent the accused assassin from testifying to his innocence by arranging yet another highly public (televised, no less) murder.
5) Ensure, despite the enormity and complexity of what it was they were doing, that not one person directly involved in this incredible chain of events has ever mentioned anything definitive about it then or since.

All this to ensure the death of a man known to have a serious chronic illness - if he really did need to be assassinated for some reason it could plausibly have been arranged for him to have taken an overdose of medication or simply to have ‘collapsed’ in the Whitehouse with infinitely less public scrutiny and suspicion.

The truth of this is that as long as there have been national figures there have been nutters who wish them dead, and despite the best intentions of those who protect them a very, very few will, like nicotine molecules eventually hitting the right gene at the right time, manage to get through the defences. You want Kennedy, and his death, to have been special, but really it was just plain bad luck.
Click to expand...

Well that's a whole lot of gibberish I would prefer to tackle one at a time, but as to...

* "conspiracies not supported by the evidence,: You obviously have not done any homework at all on the subject, but have simply accepted the brainwash handed down by the main stream media. The evidence is overwhelming.

*."Engage a cabal of shady characters to kill Kennedy, despite the fact that this cabal has significantly less personal access to the president than the conspirators themselves." -- That shady cabal includes the professional hit men of the Mafia who the US government were hired to work as a team with the CIA to kill Castro. Or didn't you know that?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1555830/CIA-hired-the-Mafia-to-kill-Fidel-Castro.html

* " Secure the co-operation of the entire local police department in staging an elaborate man-hunt for someone they have no prior reason to suspect of doing the deed." Except that American Intelligence had a very thick file on the alleged suspect,

*Prevent the accused assassin from testifying to his innocence by arranging yet another highly public (televised, no less) murder. "
Don't get your point. That fact sort of lends itself to the conspiracy theory.

* " Ensure, despite the enormity and complexity of what it was they were doing, that not one person directly involved in this incredible chain of events has ever mentioned anything definitive about it then or since."

Really, really off base. There are so many, true, some of them bogus. I will list them shortly in my final post entitled 'The Final Nail in the Lone Nutter's Coffin."

*"The truth of this is that as long as there have been national figures there have been nutters who wish them dead, " Really? So anyone wishing to kill a leader is automatically a "nut"? Does that include Count Claus von Stauffenberg, who among many others tried to klll Hitler?

*" You want Kennedy, and his death, to have been special, but really it was just plain bad luck" Indeed. Very bad luck to have been murdered by his own government and that is why the murder is so "special." Ever hear of the word "Treason??"
 
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RoboTimbo said:
No, it was a valid question based on your ridiculous assertions. Your running away from the question demonstrates your acknowledgment that you've engaged in ridiculous innuendo which you can't back up.

What is your single best piece of evidence for a bullet coming from the grassy knoll?
Click to expand...

It's coming soon, oh ye of little faith. And if you are asking who NK worked for , that's a ridiculous question. Answer it yourself.
 
Matt the Poet said:
I think all this guff is fascinating in its exposure of the mysticism behind ‘American exceptionalism’.

To the dogmatic exceptionalist, US presidents are like wizards. They can’t possibly die as a result of something as mundane as a determined nutter taking advantage of fallible security procedures. It HAS to be an incredibly elaborate plot involving nefarious elements within the state plotting with its enemies because what else has the power to get through the magic protective force field that God and Liberty has laid over the American System of Government?

And because presidents are magic, their murders are such earth-shattering events (calling the death of one man, no matter how prominent, ‘the Crime of the Century’ in the century of the Holocaust and the Khmer Rouge is, frankly, disgusting) that they can be regarded as some kind of cosmic rupture. Which is why Kennedy’s death is so often pointed to, by both right and left-wing conspiracy nutters, as The Moment When It All Went Wrong.

That’s why conspiracists fight so hard and get so emotional. If Kennedy’s death was a stupid, random event whose political consequences are ambiguous and arguable (would Vietnam really have gone all that differently? Would he really have been as strident on civil rights as LBJ?) then…why…then it might be that the US is…just another country! And how can that be!?!?!?
Click to expand...

And of course, all that balderdash has nothing whatever to do with incontrovertible evidence for the one Lone Nutter theory which nobody on this board has been able to provide.
 
Robert Prey said:
Well that's a whole lot of gibberish I would prefer to tackle one at a time, but as to...

* "conspiracies not supported by the evidence,: You obviously have not done any homework at all on the subject, but have simply accepted the brainwash handed down by the main stream media. The evidence is overwhelming.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you could give some? With proper citations, of course.

*."Engage a cabal of shady characters to kill Kennedy, despite the fact that this cabal has significantly less personal access to the president than the conspirators themselves." -- That shady cabal includes the professional hit men of the Mafia who the US government were hired to work as a team with the CIA to kill Castro. Or didn't you know that?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1555830/CIA-hired-the-Mafia-to-kill-Fidel-Castro.html
Click to expand...
Non-sequitur. Or didn't you know that?

* " Secure the co-operation of the entire local police department in staging an elaborate man-hunt for someone they have no prior reason to suspect of doing the deed." Except that American Intelligence had a very thick file on the alleged suspect,
Click to expand...
Do you get your non-sequiturs with bulk rate discount?

*Prevent the accused assassin from testifying to his innocence by arranging yet another highly public (televised, no less) murder. "
Don't get your point. That fact sort of lends itself to the conspiracy theory.
Click to expand...
Except you've not shown any evidence of a conspiracy. The fact sort of lends itself to discrediting the conspiracy theory.

* " Ensure, despite the enormity and complexity of what it was they were doing, that not one person directly involved in this incredible chain of events has ever mentioned anything definitive about it then or since."

Really, really off base. There are so many, true, some of them bogus. I will list them shortly in my final post entitled 'The Final Nail in the Lone Nutter's Coffin."
Click to expand...
A parting shot post as a CTer leaves with tail between legs won't really be anything new. Evidence would be new. You might try that approach.

*"The truth of this is that as long as there have been national figures there have been nutters who wish them dead, " Really? So anyone wishing to kill a leader is automatically a "nut"? Does that include Count Claus von Stauffenberg, who among many others tried to klll Hitler?
Click to expand...
You don't think Hitler himself was the nutter? That would explain a lot.

*" You want Kennedy, and his death, to have been special, but really it was just plain bad luck" Indeed. Very bad luck to have been murdered by his own government and that is why the murder is so "special." Ever hear of the word "Treason??"
Click to expand...
Certainly. It's usually thrown out by CT nutters as part of their total "innuendo package". Have you ever heard the word "Evidence??"
 
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