Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[codyjuneau]

On this fourth anniversary of Meredith's death I would just like to express that I feel sad for Meredith, her family, her friends (including Raffaele and Amanda) and what should have been.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

New piece at Perugia Shock

Frank has a new entry, and it is a powerful, if difficult, read.

Meredith, rest in peace.

 

[Caper]

Knox is a proven liar and the police (nor anyone else) does not need any recording to prove anything.

Oh but you do. When you are trying to prove the 2nd stupidest theory of all time (see Norfolk 4). You need alot more then a high pressure interrogation. BTW have you ever moved past your hatred long enough to see just how stupid the theory is? Orgy gone wrong.... give me a break.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Please don't do anything to bother Perugia Murder File today or say anything rude about their daily displays of vile hatred. They are busy pretending to care about Meredith.

 

[Caper]

Please don't do anything to bother Perugia Murder File today or say anything rude about their daily displays of vile hatred. They are busy pretending to care about Meredith.

Is there anyone or many people that represent the opposing view on that site?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Is there anyone or many people that represent the opposing view on that site?

No. They find one pretext or another to ban anyone who challenges the pro-guilt groupthink. They try to maintain the facade that they ban people for trolling, incivility and so forth but even posting sourced, strictly factual material that contradicts their collective delusion will get you an instant ban.

 

[CDHost]

Humanity great research

Humanity just wanted to say great job on the research for the TJMK thread ! Well done, pity this got moved and I agree with your position.

 

[CDHost]

Statement from Mr. Kercher:
http://global.christianpost.com/new...y-of-kerchers-death-attacked-by-father-59994/

I think it is very insensitive of Mr. Kercher to be attacking an innocent girl for going to a party.

Rose I completely agree with you. The Kercher's via. Marasca did everything possible to destroy Amanda. The fact that their all but assassination attempt was unsuccessful, is frustrating for them. Too bad.

Amanda should live her life freely and joyfully. And no one, especially people who were party to the travesty in Perugia, has any right to be critical of her trying to piece her life back together.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Humanity just wanted to say great job on the research for the TJMK thread ! Well done, pity this got moved and I agree with your position.

Thank you. And thank you for linking the whole thread, which I somehow missed and never got to see any responses. It's a shame that "you know who" is so obsessed with clicking violation, because it was on topic and relevant. It obviously was not taken down for copyright violation as it is still viewable on a public URL. Regardless, it's amazing to me that some people praise these sites as the "most popular" and "most respected" websites on the case----then when we analyze and discuss them, all of the sudden they're off topic and hysterical hot flashes ensue. Give me a freaking break. The blogs are part of the story of this case and we have every right to discuss it. And those clicking violation every other post need to get over it.

 

[codyjuneau]

Does anyone know if any other rocks the size of the one used were close by?

I found this picture. If you zoom on the lower right corner there are some gray things that look like they might be rocks. I drew an arrow that points to something that appears to be a depression where a rock could have been. It is difficult to ascertain without a higher resolution photograph.

 

[RandyN]

Knox is a proven liar and the police (nor anyone else) does not need any recording to prove anything.
Moreover, testimonies may well be totally unnecessary; but anyway Anna Donnino is not "a testimony of the police". Anna Donnino is a witness who just cannot be discredited, since there isn't the slightest element to discredit her testimony. And thus her testimony itself would be compelling for any judge.

HAHAHAHA....Donnino? You mean that person who explains to the suspect (not witness) that she certainly must be suffering memory loss due to shock???...that compelling nit wit errr witness?

That alone discredits her to all except the foolish....the short list would include Mignini and Massei.

How quickly they forget.

The last time I visited here YummiMac was calling on Al Qaeda to rain down terror on the USA. I hardly find that behavior calm or reasoned. To call his recent and continued ramblings thoughtful, insightful or anything new for that matter is absurd. Certainly, he is entitled to repeat the same mantra forever but it far from serves as something resembling a guilty time line let alone a decent argument against the immense amount of “rare” occurrences in this case that are the result of police and prosecutor blunder and or outright fraud.

For example what are the chances that someone forgot to record a vital interrogation in this case (three times to include AK, RS, PL) and then the same people also are responsible for burning up 4 computer hard drives? Which is blunder and which is fraud? Did these same interrogators forget the law that requires a lawyer for AK, RS and PL too? Which is blunder…which is fraud?

Who tries to sell you the idea that Anna Donnino is not the police? Who pays her? How is it that she asks Knox to imagine things? Is that the job of interrupter? And how is it that Donnino is listed as a plaintiff along with 5 other police officers in a false slander charge against Knox? Please save the lame arguments for the lame minded.

Tell us why the semen stain was never tested. Show us the negative image of these "bloody footprints" you speak about in both luminol and bathmat. Where is the foot fall that first covers the foot in blood? That negative image…where is this necessary marking?

Explain the prosecution objection to further DNA review in the first trial in contrast to the demand by the prosecution for further testing in the appeal after it was clear that the prosecution had no more case. Explain the prosecution objection to opening the knife handle. Explain the prosecutions effort to withhold DNA evidence in the first trial which was so evident that even Massei (the dumbest judge on earth) understood it and dismissed court until the prosecution complied.

Too many things ....screams with no time, Quintinvale who tells police one story and then tells the prosecutor a different story....which story do you wish us to consider? The one where he saw nothing or the other one?

All blunders? All fraud? Some of each? Suspect centric foolish guess work? Italian ego unable to admit mistakes?

Keep pounding the table...maybe that will make us believe what was always unlikely.

Right now I see one attacker and one attackers clearly visible evidence that shows that he alone murdered and raped and robbed. Footprints, shoeprints, fingerprints...do we even need DNA evidence? Then we have MO , and we have motive.

What the police and prosecutor lack is reasoning. Why no test of the semen stain? Why was Rudy Guede free to roam the streets of Perugia when police certainly knew of his prior crimes? Why did they allow this man the freedom to kill Meredith? This question is what the police wish to keep hidden. The fact that a known criminal was allowed the freedom to rape and murder and rob. This question remains hidden in the smoke screen created to hide why they allowed it to happen in the first place. So far it is working because Rudy Guede remains largely an after thought in this case. Blunder or fraud or both?

All the oddities of this case...just circumstance? Yes… sure we are foolish...we will believe anything. OR NOT!

 

[RandyN]

Is there anyone or many people that represent the opposing view on that site?

Rose posted there today but it did not go over well. She was given a final warning which said if she posts there again she is banned. Which begs the question ....is that not in fact a ban already then?

 

[Dougm]

Rose posted there today but it did not go over well. She was given a final warning which said if she posts there again she is banned. Which begs the question ....is that not in fact a ban already then?

I saw that. Hilarious in it's incongruity. SB said "post here again and you will be banned". Think about that for a minute. Or maybe a second!

 

[codyjuneau]

Rose I completely agree with you. The Kercher's via. Marasca did everything possible to destroy Amanda.

Mignini recommended Maresca to the Kerchers. Maresca then represented Mignini and sent the bill to the Kerchers. Like so many other people in this case and previous cases, the Kerchers are victims of Mignini. And their daughter was killed. A tough mile to walk.

 

[Kaosium]

3. Series of lies told by Amanda Knox before her last interrogation (between nov 2. and 4.): Knox’s account of facts is riddled with lies and inconsistencies, it is entirely fictional and unacceptable (this is another complex point to unfold)

4. Amanda’s false confession in a spontaneous statement and her hand written note; her subsequent refusal to correct it and failure to give a consistent version and to explain the reasons for the false confession. Her inconsistence in describing circumstances of how her false confession occurred. Anna Donnino’s witness report.

5. Raffaele Sollecito’s changing of alibi and his various lies and his final failure to provide a version of fact. In addition to this, another series of proven lies by Amanda Knox on their alibi.

Amanda lies! Seems to be a theme with you, Machiavelli!

Anyway, here is what I found of the Massei Report on the Lumumba calunnia charge, I also added the Appeal summary from IIP What I am wondering is what will be in the Hellmann Report, I've asked you before and you demurred, I'm hoping you might take this opportunity to write a preliminary 'Hellmann Motivations' as I'm guessing you're not going to like what he has to say about everything else. However this one you know you're going to 'win'--so why not try to guess what will be in it?

If I understand this correctly, this is all they'll be able to use, right? There was no new testimony on this charge, Pacelli just went up there and shrieked 'She's a WITCH!' during closing statements, adding something about her being 'dirty inside and out.'

On November 6, 2007, soon after a police arrest warrant [fermo] was served to Amanda, while she was waiting to be transferred to Capanne Prison, ‚she asked for some blank paper for the purpose of producing something written to deliver to yours truly {translator’s note: a female person) meaning, to the Chief Inspector of the State Police, Rita Ficcara (see service notes on November 6, 2007).

In that piece of writing, Amanda Knox prefaced her explanation of the various circumstances with the following phrase: ‚in my mind there are things that I remember and things that are confused.‛ She then wrote of having seen Meredith for the last time on November 1, 2007 in the afternoon, around 15:00 pm or 16:00 pm; they were at home at Via della Pergola, and Raffaele was also there. She and Raffaele stayed a little longer, and then, together they went back to his home (on Corso Garibaldi) to watch the movie Amelie. She then received a message from Patrick telling her it wasn’t necessary for her to go to work at the pub, since no one was there. Therefore, she stayed with Raffaele, with whom she smoked some marijuana. They had dinner together, but quite late, perhaps 23:00 pm.
The statement that was signed by Amanda on November 6, 2007 at 5:45 am should not be used against her because there was no attorney provided.

After dinner, she noticed a bit of blood on Raffaele’s hand and had the impression that ‚it had to do with blood coming from the fish‛ that they had cooked. Raffaele, after having eaten, had washed the dishes, but a break in the pipes had occurred under the sink. And water was leaking, with flooding on the floor. Since they didn’t have a mop, they decided that they would do the cleaning the next day with a mop that she could get from her house. She added that they were very tired and that it had to have been quite late (at that point): her next memory brought her to the morning of November 2, around 10:00 am, when she woke up and took a plastic bag in which she placed her own dirty clothing to take home.

She then made reference to the statement she had made in the Police Headquarters during the night between November 5 and 6, as well as on the morning of November 6. She explained that she made those statements under stress and (in light of) the particular situation that had arisen. In her own mind, she was seeing something like flashbacks which, however, seemed unreal to her, like a dream: e.g., Patrick near the basketball court, near the front door of the house: of herself crouched down in the kitchen with her hands over her ears because in her own head, she had heard Meredith scream. She added that she wasn’t sure of the truth and that she was confused. She knew only that she had not killed Meredith.

She had met Patrick Lumumba through a friend, and she had worked at Le Chic pub, which was run by Patrick. She had begun to work in this pub around the middle of October. In the beginning, she worked there every day, then, later, two times a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays. Her relationship with Patrick was good, and she was never treated poorly by him.

On the evening of November 1, 2007, she was supposed to have gone to work at Le Chic pub, but she didn’t go (there), since Patrick had sent her a message telling her that she didn’t have to go to work. That message was sent to her around 8:15 -8:30 pm. At that very time, she found herself in Raffaele’s apartment, and when she answered that message, she thought that she had been in his apartment. The evening of November 1, she did not encounter Patrick. During the night of November 5-6, 2007, she had stated something different to the police, but that occurred because of the persistence of the questioning and because of the situation that had been created in the course of the questioning and it was at that time that she began to imagine what could have happened.


She reported that she had the keys to the home on Via della Pergola, 7, being the house where she lived. Meredith, Laura and Filomena were also in possession of the keys. On November 1, 2007, as far as she knew, Filomena was with her boyfriend; Filomena had also told her that Laura was in Rome. She denied being in the home in Via della Pergola, 7, on the evening of November 1, 2007, after 21:00 pm. In the questioning that occurred during the night of November 5 –6, 2007 she had stated that on the evening in question, after 21:00 pm, she had gone with Patrick to the Via della Pergola 7 home, (but only) because she was under pressure and confused. Even the matter relating to the fact that Meredith, before being killed, had had sex, she had reported that, too, ‚under pressure‛ and for this reason, she had imagined many things, of which had included Meredith’s scream, and the fact of having held her ears closed, so as to not hear her. On November 5, in the evening, she had not been

summoned by the Police, but she went to Police Headquarters to accompany Raffaele because she didn’t want to be alone. Regarding the record on November 6, she remembered in the late morning of that day she had asked members of the criminal unit police for sheets of paper to write on and she wrote in English, without anyone having suggested to her what she should write. Since she was [58] confused, she wanted to explain to the police her own confusion. That account was written completely freely and voluntarily. She remembered having said in a conversation with her mother that she ‚felt horrible because Patrick was stuck in prison and it’s my fault.‛ She denied having accused Patrick in order to save herself. She accused him because of that particular situation that had been created during the course of the interrogations during the night of November 5-6, 2007.

Now here is the appeal, and it seems to me that all this is pretty relevant and damning of the Massei Court for allowing basically all of the above outside the tapped conversation into the court.

The Italian Supreme Court ruled in April, 2008 that the statement could not be used against Amanda because at that time, she was a charged suspect, and there was no attorney allowed/provided. This is prohibited by Article 63. Amanda also had a right to silence. Amanda's Constitutional right was breached under Articles 2, 24 & 111.

This statement was allowed into evidence on June 12, 2009 during Amanda's testimony at trial for the civil suit filed by Patrick Lumumba. This statement should not have been allowed in any form at any time during the murder trial. The civil trial and the murder trial were run concurrently with the same jury. The court ignored the Italian Supreme Court’s ruling regarding this statement.

Not only was the statement ruled inadmissible by the Italian Supreme Court because there was no attorney provided, the methods used to obtain the signature on the statement are also in violation of Italian law. The statement was signed by Amanda during a period of time when she was experiencing a psychological abnormality from being exhausted, over questioned, denied food, water, bathroom, coercion, stress, and confusion. This is a violation per Article 237 c.p.p. and Article 191 c.p.p., paragraph 2.

Second Violation: Disallowance of the declaration made
November 6, 2007

The defense states in the appeal that Amanda's hand written note should not be allowed into evidence.

Allowing this hand written note into evidence is a violation of Italian law, 11 Article 237 c.p.p. and Article 188 c.p.p. Amanda was not allowed/provided and attorney. At the time, Amanda did not understand she was being arrested for murder. When Amanda wrote the note she was an official suspect. Amanda wrote out a statement without knowing or being properly advised she was in fact a murder suspect. Amanda was under stress. Amanda was lied to when she was told that having an attorney would only hurt her more. Amanda was denied the right to call her mom. Amanda should have had an attorney present telling her she had the right to remain silent. An attorney would have also advised Amanda that her hand written note would be considered a spontaneous declaration and would be allowable in court. Amanda's rights were not protected because she was not given the proper time to fully exercise her rights and consult with legal counsel.

I will add that Amanda’s hand written note in no way incriminates her. Amanda’s note has been discussed in great detail. Amanda was attempting to inform the authorities that she was unsure of her previous statements. She was under extreme stress and it is obvious from reading her note that she was still in a state of confusion from extreme exhaustion and stress when she wrote it. If Amanda was provided with an attorney, she would have been able to take the proper time to express her thoughts.

6. Antonio Curatolo and Quintavalle as eye witness as further corroboration of their lying.

Amanda lies again! But she didn't, did she? Wasn't there a report the day of the verdict that Quintavalle recanted? His account had already been refuted by Volturno's records and his own employee, what more has to be done to discredit a witness than all that? Anyway, Meredith was dead already, they didn't need bleach as Raffaele had some, the didn't use bleach ala the luminol stains, and there was no clean-up in the murder room or the hall. So who cares what Quintavalle said a year after the crime when he said she came in Raffaele's jacket which she only wore in that famous kissing video they showed over and over on Italian TV?

Curatolo said he saw them Halloween and he was on drugs, testifying at his third murder trial when under investigation for smack-dealing, plus he's nuts and got laughed out of court.

Oh, and if despite all that he actually did see them November first, he alibis them for the murder. Even the saner contingent of the prosecution had to admit Meredith died before 10 PM, you knew that more than a year beforehand because Kevin Lowe and LondonJohn told you.

Digestion works no differently in the state of Umbria than it does anywhere else. If she ate at 6:00-6:30 then with nothing in her duodenum she died before 10PM almost assuredly. Everything else lines up at an attacker around 9 PM anyway, that's likely when Rudy first stabbed her, when Raffaele and Amanda still had an electronic alibi.

7. Nara Capezzali and Antonella Monacchia’s credible witness reports, about a time of death and dynamic compatible with their guilt.

A scream does not damn either Raffaele or Amanda, you can move it back to the time of death all you want, I'll give you that, but it still doesn't implicate either of the innocents.

8. A series of luminol footprints with very peculiar features, showing they performed an operation of cleaning the scene; this area of evidence is based on the distribution and features of the footprints, and on the lack of alternative explanations related to normal activities (complex evidence, requires long elaboration)

I'll be waiting for it, I didn't spent all that time on luminol for nothing! They tested negative for blood, and the 'hypothesis' of being so diluted they weren't detected by the TMB is falsified both by Stefanoni's testimony and the pictures themselves.

<...>

Now, the above comment of yours deserves a little attention because it shows, in a nutcase, the structure of your thought and why I see as utter irrational.

You know, having read your posts here and elsewhere, either at the time or in archives I do believe this is the first time you gave me a belly laugh!

I do believe you meant 'in a nutshell' as 'nutcase' while definitionally similar takes on an entirely new nuance in English!
<...>

But bear in mind that the Supreme Court would never reverse the calunnia charge nor cancel the damages to be paid: the may, at best, order a new trial. But this only if the defence recurs against the Hellmann’s verdict. We don’t know if, by now, the defence is willing to challenge the verdict by the Supreme Court. They did not express this intent. If they do not make this next legal move, they will have to pay the money within three months.

It automatically has to go to the Supreme Court, does it not? What do you mean by 'recurs?' The Supreme Court has to verify that the verdict is in accordance with Italian law, the prosecution has an option to appeal, but the defense has it happen automatically, doesn't it?

 

[Kaosium]

I found this picture. If you zoom on the lower right corner there are some gray things that look like they might be rocks. I drew an arrow that points to something that appears to be a depression where a rock could have been. It is difficult to ascertain without a higher resolution photograph.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_527614eb0cf5981f14.jpg[/qimg]

I am not an easy sell with pictures over the internet, but that definitely looks like rocks the right size for Rudy to have used. Dunno about the depression though, when was this picture taken?

 

[RoseMontague]

Rose posted there today but it did not go over well. She was given a final warning which said if she posts there again she is banned. Which begs the question ....is that not in fact a ban already then?

No worries, I am sure stint will speak up for me on my behalf. Just a temporary setback, I am certain.

 

[Kaosium]

Found it!

Crumbs, the pic I wanted to show is oversized.

So I'll just ask Rose: was that .net or .org who gave you the boot?

 

[RoseMontague]

Crumbs, the pic I wanted to show is oversized.

So I'll just ask Rose: was that .net or .org who gave you the boot?

That would be .org

It seems that saying Mr. Kercher is insensitive on another board is a reason for banning at that home of great discussion and debate, that premier website. Still, I wanted to say thanks to all my friends there that argued against me being banned.

 

[Kaosium]

That would be .org

It seems that saying Mr. Kercher is insensitive on another board is a reason for banning at that home of great discussion and debate, that premier website. Still, I wanted to say thanks to all my friends there that argued against me being banned.

John Kercher was insensitive, so are the damned tabloids for even asking him, I'm assuming he didn't call them about it.

They got a fuzzy video of her practicing some self defense classes, at TMZ I think. They'll get sick of her soon, they're looking for something and she covers her self from head-to-toe practically. I honestly don't think I've seen a picture with her legs uncovered since she was grown. Maybe her ankles in that machine gun pic, I'd have to double-check. Amanda does college-sweatshirt Victorian naturally, that doesn't go over all that well with the likes of TMZ in the long run is my guess.