Is Circumcision Right or Wrong?

[ZirconBlue]

But I'm guessing he doesn't use it for the same reason, and as often, as cut men do - especially single men. When you're uncut, all you need to do is grab it and you're good to go..

At the risk of entering TMI territory, I've never found lubricant necessary, even without a foreskin.

 

[CriticalSock]

At the risk of entering TMI territory, I've never found lubricant necessary, even without a foreskin.

Determined little chap aren't you!

 

[slingblade]

But I'm guessing he doesn't use it for the same reason, and as often, as cut men do - especially single men. When you're uncut, all you need to do is grab it and you're good to go..

Your guess, sir, would be wrong. Sorry.


(please note: the fact that I know of a single exception means, in and of itself, absolutely nothing. I just like pointing out exceptions whenever I know about them. )

 

[Ryokan]

Your guess, sir, would be wrong. Sorry.

So your husband uses lotion for the same reason and as often as a single man?

Well, you have my condolences then.. I hope he lets you borrow some..

 

[slingblade]

So your husband uses lotion for the same reason and as often as a single man?

Well, you have my condolences then.. I hope he lets you borrow some..

There are details, which while they would further understanding (it's not as bad as you may be imagining it, in the ways you may be imagining), they are indeed TMI to share.

 

[Fascination]

In my personal experience as a female....sex with uncircumcised men felt different than circumcised men. It felt better with uncircumcised men. There was more friction perhaps?
Anyway, I wouldn't circumcise my son if I ever have one. I see no reason for it.
About the hygiene issue, my father and several ex boyfriends were uncircumcised. None of them ever had a problem with smegma. It's simple...you just wash it!

 

[jdp]

About the hygiene issue, my father and several ex boyfriends were uncircumcised. None of them ever had a problem with smegma. It's simple...you just wash it!

It's a concept that many in the US can't seem to work out.

 

[catsmate]

In my personal experience as a female....sex with uncircumcised men felt different than circumcised men. It felt better with uncircumcised men. There was more friction perhaps?
Anyway, I wouldn't circumcise my son if I ever have one. I see no reason for it.
About the hygiene issue, my father and several ex boyfriends were uncircumcised. None of them ever had a problem with smegma. It's simple...you just wash it!

That's interesting. I was at a BDSM munch this past weekend and asked about people's experiences there but given the circumcision rate here is <5% there wasn't a lot of data.
However the Frisch, Lindholm and Grønbæk study I cited previously did suggest that women have fewer problems with an uncircumcised male partner.

Make of this what you will.

ETA: I didn't bring this up at the time as I felt that it wasn't directly relevant to the discussion but as the cat is out of the bag¹ I thought it might be of interest.


¹ I wait Brainache's replacement metaphor...........

 

[Fascination]

That's interesting. I was at a BDSM munch this past weekend and asked about people's experiences there but given the circumcision rate here is <5% there wasn't a lot of data.
However the Frisch, Lindholm and Grønbæk study I cited previously did suggest that women have fewer problems with an uncircumcised male partner.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=518&pictureid=5185[/qimg]
Make of this what you will.

ETA: I didn't bring this up at the time as I felt that it wasn't directly relevant to the discussion but as the cat is out of the bag¹ I thought it might be of interest.


¹ I wait Brainache's replacement metaphor...........

When I was in my younger, wilder (and much more fun) days, I attended a few BDSM munches. They were always a lot of fun!
Yes, currently most boys in the US are circumcised but it's slowly changing. I read that its becoming more and more common for parents to forgo the procedure. Especially in the western part of the US.
I hope you had fun at the munch!

 

[sadhatter]

I wasn't addressing a question. I was addressing this statement:



I certainly wasn't addressing your point, because I consider it irrelevant. We didn't circumcise our son for religious reasons; even the cultural reasons underlying the prevalence of circumcision don't trace back to those religious reasons.

Why exactly do you consider it hypocritical or intellectually dishonest for me to ignore your question when it doesn't even pertain to me, my culture, or my reasons?

Why exactly do the reasons matter?

I respect the process no more if someone is doing it just to go with the flow, or because they read some dubious studies, than i do if they think an invisible gent told them to.

It all boils down to cutting off part of someones tackle , when said part has no reason to be removed.

The only situation i wouldn't say i would blame the parents for is if someone literally had a gun to their head. ( i mean it doesn't have to be a gun, any form of their life being threatened really.) Other than that, it all boils down to an unnecessary procedure that is forced upon someone without a choice, and has real negative consequences.

 

[sadhatter]

In my personal experience as a female....sex with uncircumcised men felt different than circumcised men. It felt better with uncircumcised men. There was more friction perhaps?
Anyway, I wouldn't circumcise my son if I ever have one. I see no reason for it.
About the hygiene issue, my father and several ex boyfriends were uncircumcised. None of them ever had a problem with smegma. It's simple...you just wash it!

I mean, really it boils down to less wang versus more wang.

Any guy here who would voluntarily choose to have a smaller penis? So why do people think it is okay to make that choice for a child?

 

[Keeper]

I mean, really it boils down to less wang versus more wang.

Any guy here who would voluntarily choose to have a smaller penis? So why do people think it is okay to make that choice for a child?

Well, even if you get your head round that, there's the whole burying it in the garden thing.

Wonder if they were trying to grow a new one?

 

[jdp]

The only situation i wouldn't say i would blame the parents for is if someone literally had a gun to their head. ( i mean it doesn't have to be a gun, any form of their life being threatened really.) Other than that, it all boils down to an unnecessary procedure that is forced upon someone without a choice, and has real negative consequences.

You see I am not sure that I would blame the parents; they are as much victims as the child. Personally, I blame the doctors who are performing circumcisions. They are the ones who know it is an unnecessary procedure yet they still perform them. When asked why most will say something along the lines of, "Because the parents insist on it." Which is of course a crock. It is up to the physicians to explain that in spite of what the parents "insist on" that there is no rational reasons to perform it therefore they don't.

Now having said that I do think that the blame can start to shift more toward the parents because although it might have been the case that years ago they were uninformed, this is much less the case now. Today it's easy to find out that it's unnecessary and not performed in most modern countries. Ultimately though this is solely an issue with those who perform them.

 

[catsmate]

When I was in my younger, wilder (and much more fun) days, I attended a few BDSM munches. They were always a lot of fun!
Yes, currently most boys in the US are circumcised but it's slowly changing. I read that its becoming more and more common for parents to forgo the procedure. Especially in the western part of the US.
I hope you had fun at the munch!

In the last fifteen years the aggregate infant circumcision rate for the US has declined from 56% to 33%, and it's still dropping.

 

[catsmate]

You see I am not sure that I would blame the parents; they are as much victims as the child. Personally, I blame the doctors who are performing circumcisions. They are the ones who know it is an unnecessary procedure yet they still perform them. When asked why most will say something along the lines of, "Because the parents insist on it." Which is of course a crock. It is up to the physicians to explain that in spite of what the parents "insist on" that there is no rational reasons to perform it therefore they don't.

Now having said that I do think that the blame can start to shift more toward the parents because although it might have been the case that years ago they were uninformed, this is much less the case now. Today it's easy to find out that it's unnecessary and not performed in most modern countries. Ultimately though this is solely an issue with those who perform them.

The American Academy of Pediatrics currently advises parents that "The existing scientific evidence is not sufficient to recommend routine circumcision" a far milder statement that other medical organisations worldwide.

Interestingly, it could be possible for an adult to bring a complaint against a paediatrician who performed the procedure on them, based on the circumcision being a violation the AAP's guidelines on informed consent in children; given that that inability to do so means that proceeding with surgery that could be harmlessly deferred constitutes needless violation of autonomy, or inadequate consent.

Especially given that the AAP's Bio-ethics Committee guidelines state that:

Such [medical] providers have legal and ethical duties to their child patients to render competent medical care based on what the patient needs, not what someone else expresses. [...] the pediatrician's responsibilities to his or her patient exist independent of parental desires or proxy consent.

 

[catsmate]

I mean, really it boils down to less wang versus more wang.

Any guy here who would voluntarily choose to have a smaller penis? So why do people think it is okay to make that choice for a child?

Circumcision significantly reduces sensitivity.
Based on the Sorrells study (British Journal of Urology International, Volume 99 Issue 4 Page 864 - April 2007)

OBJECTIVE: To map the fine-touch pressure thresholds of the adult penis in circumcised and uncircumcised men, and to compare the two populations.

SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Adult male volunteers with no history of penile pathology or diabetes were evaluated with a Semmes-Weinstein monofilament touch-test to map the fine-touch pressure thresholds of the penis. Circumcised and uncircumcised men were compared using mixed models for repeated data, controlling for age, type of underwear worn, time since last ejaculation, ethnicity, country of birth, and level of education.

RESULTS: The glans of the uncircumcised men had significantly lower mean (sem) pressure thresholds than that of the circumcised men, at 0.161 (0.078) g (P = 0.040) when controlled for age, location of measurement, type of underwear worn, and ethnicity. There were significant differences in pressure thresholds by location on the penis (P < 0.001). The most sensitive location on the circumcised penis was the circumcision scar on the ventral surface. Five locations on the uncircumcised penis that are routinely removed at circumcision had lower pressure thresholds than the ventral scar of the circumcised penis.

CONCLUSIONS: The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis.

 

[jdp]

The American Academy of Pediatrics currently advises parents that "The existing scientific evidence is not sufficient to recommend routine circumcision" a far milder statement that other medical organisations worldwide.

I am not sure I would characterize the AAP's statement as milder than most. Quite the contrary, I'd say it presents the most favorable argument for circumcision. As opposed to others I've seen such as the Australian, British, Canadian and especially the Dutch. I know you might cite the WHO's statement as a contrary example but their statement applies only to a very specific subset of people.

Interestingly, it could be possible for an adult to bring a complaint against a paediatrician who performed the procedure on them, based on the circumcision being a violation the AAP's guidelines on informed consent in children; given that that inability to do so means that proceeding with surgery that could be harmlessly deferred constitutes needless violation of autonomy, or inadequate consent.

Especially given that the AAP's Bio-ethics Committee guidelines state that:

I think this has been tried and failed. I agree that a challenge should be permitted but it hasn't yet succeeded. I do find the hypocrisy between those two statements interesting though. It's something that I know has been pointed out to them before but as is often the case in such situations, those comments are typically brushed aside.

 

[catsmate]

I am not sure I would characterize the AAP's statement as milder than most. Quite the contrary, I'd say it presents the most favorable argument for circumcision. As opposed to others I've seen such as the Australian, British, Canadian and especially the Dutch. I know you might cite the WHO's statement as a contrary example but their statement applies only to a very specific subset of people.

Sorry, that's what I meant. Compared to other medical organisations the AAP's official line is rather 'wishy washy'.

 

[jdp]

Sorry, that's what I meant. Compared to other medical organisations the AAP's official line is rather 'wishy washy'.

They're all kind of wishy washy, some more than others. Most reports states that there are no rational reasons for routine circumcision but if you want it go ahead.

 

[slingblade]

I mean, really it boils down to less wang versus more wang.

Any guy here who would voluntarily choose to have a smaller penis? So why do people think it is okay to make that choice for a child?

There's actually some discussion of the "whys" early in the thread. You must have missed all of them.