Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[Childlike Empress]

While I'm hardpressed to label the individual protestors this way; the inspiration behind the movements' propaganda is more than a little unsettling...

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Going as far as replicating not one, or two, but several symbols of old soviet propaganda. I'm all for tackling corruption where it hits in the big business area, but I'm not enthused with supporting a movement that gets it's imagery from the vintage Soviet revolution

As a good skeptic you sure traced those images down to the origins (not "uploaded to imageshack today"). Please present your findings.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

As a good skeptic you sure traced those images down to the origins (not "uploaded to imageshack today"). Please present your findings.

Let the US Days of rage begin, bring your tent, OCCUPY WALLSTREET

The symbol of the clenched fist used here and here. (There are several variations of the "clenched fist" interpetted in vintage soviet propaganda artwork)

Wallstreet belongs to us with the peasant woman

The imageshack renders were simply side by side comparisons of the OWS versions with the originals, or in the case of the second one (first in this post) to show that they incorporate the hammer and sickle

 

[Alt+F4]

Going as far as replicating not one, or two, but several symbols of old soviet propaganda. I'm all for tackling corruption where it hits in the big business area, but I'm not enthused with supporting a movement that gets it's imagery from the vintage Soviet revolution

Indeed. Soviet imagery with a Maoist twist. In a discussion regarding a man harassing several women in Zuccotti Park, a member of their security team describes how the situation will be handled:

That said, if anyone can identify this individual when he is present in the park and bring him to the Community Watch’s attention, we can make sure we photograph him, confront him, and as necessary force a change in his behavoir to be conscious of the fact that his behavior is unacceptable and making the space unsafe for others and is in violation of the neighborhood policy ratified by the General Assembly… or leave, if he does not wish to behave as the General Assembly has set out for all Occupiers.

Perhaps the General Assembly will set up a re-education camp in one section of the park.

https://www.nycga.net/groups/security/forum/topic/sexual-harrassment/

 

[RandFan]

Here's the problem as I see it: addressing the broader issues in a way that would satisfy one of these fractions would not have an effect on the others' complaints and perhaps in some cases may even antagonize them further. Because of this, I think it is by definition impossible to satisfy or address "Occupy Wall Street" as a movement; placating any fraction within it will not make the occupiers as a whole go away.

I apologize for dismissing this out of hand but IMO it doesn't matter. At all. If Wahington made substantive changes addressing key issues of crime and jobs or other significant issues the movement would end. As it is maybe the voting public will shift left. The polls seem to bear that out. I think politicians who dismiss the movement as easily as many in this thread are doing so recklessly.

At the same time, I'm sure you must have noticed for yourself that any person or group which attempts to put up a webpage, say, with a specific list of demands or proposals is quickly disowned or at the very least disclaimed by OWS as a whole.

As a whole? I thought we had gotten past that.

So it seems to me that the OWS movement, as it currently exists, is counterproductive to the goals of its fractions and supressive of positive action toward change.

I think that is absurd. It's that kind of thinking that frustrates me, but let me hasten to add. It's just an opinion and I can respect it. In any event, assuming your premise, you should be glad right? Or do you actually care about the movement and want it to succeed?

What, for instance, would be a disadvantage of a fraction diverging from the OWS umbrella and working to advance a set of specific goals?

The same as it was for the civil rights movement of the 60s.

 

[RandFan]

You're approaching this as though there is a fundamental set of grievances aired through Occupy that has no other venue or resolution process available.

No. And I resent other people telling me what I'm doing. I wouldn't mind if you added the caveat "You seem" or "IMO".

Is it possible that you're projecting a serious set of agenda items onto Occupy?

Anything is possible. But I have to consider the following. I was an early critic of the movement. My complaints are documented. In considering my position I've carefully listened to both opponents and proponents. I have not dismissed any reasonable complaint or fair and objective analysis out of hand. I lack any certainty as to the movements appropriateness or likely success. I don't believe in any absolute truth or subscribe to any ideology or dogma. Given all of that I would have to say that I think your suggestion to be very, very unlikely. However, my best shot at getting at the truth is to always question my own held beliefs. And I'm happy to say that I'm one of a few on this thread that does that and have made known my doubts. You?

 

[Childlike Empress]

Let the US Days of rage begin, bring your tent, OCCUPY WALLSTREET

The symbol of the clenched fist used here and here. (There are several variations of the "clenched fist" interpetted in vintage soviet propaganda artwork)

Wallstreet belongs to us with the peasant woman

The imageshack renders were simply side by side comparisons of the OWS versions with the originals, or in the case of the second one (first in this post) to show that they incorporate the hammer and sickle

Thanks.

So the second one maybe originated with "Dandelion" from adbusters, posted on care2 (if you can prove that this really originated with adbusters, i'll say that "this was a bad idea") and picked up by some "Eric Verlo" on "notmytribe". The first one from the XXVII soviet was collected or done by a blogger named "artistdogboy". Uuuu-huh, that discredits the movement.

The clenched fist was used by countless progressive movements throughout history, in recent years most prominently by the wonderful "colour revolution" groups in those eastern european countries who didn't fall in line with US hegemony after the collapse of the SU.

Shocking.

 

[RandFan]

While I'm hardpressed to label the individual protestors this way; the inspiration behind the movements' propaganda is more than a little unsettling...

I've never doubted this to be an element of the movement.

Please note that these images have their roots in the 60s or even earlier.

 

[RandFan]

Let the US Days of rage begin, bring your tent, OCCUPY WALLSTREET

The symbol of the clenched fist used here and here. (There are several variations of the "clenched fist" interpetted in vintage soviet propaganda artwork)

Wallstreet belongs to us with the peasant woman

The imageshack renders were simply side by side comparisons of the OWS versions with the originals, or in the case of the second one (first in this post) to show that they incorporate the hammer and sickle

Do you not know that there were similar images during the civil rights movement?

These images are by no stretch of the imagination new. If we could survive statist iconography then we can survive it again. Though to be sure the boogeman of atheist communism is still a powerful propaganda tool. So powerful that many people to this day see atheism and communism as synonymous.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I've never doubted this to be an element of the movement.

Please note that these images have their roots in the 60s or even earlier.

The images actually originate from the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution and the Stalin era. While I'm open to the notion that it doesn't represent the underpinning sentiment of protestors themselves it's their use by event organizers that concerns me. I don't agree with the movement's base ideals, but it'd be a waste if the sponsors and event organizers playing the communist tune try and twist the popular ideology against corporate greed into something worse.

The list of sponsors isn't terribly comforting either, though to be fair, some of the endorsements come from complete joke movements that want nothing more than a piggy back ride on the momentum OWS has. All I can say is, take the message at heart but be cautious about backing it. Obama, Biden, and Pelosi are setting themselves up for major political heat if these themes get too mixed in with the movement and it's ideology.

Do you not know that there were similar images during the civil rights movement?

I'm aware.

These images are by no stretch of the imagination new.

Absolutely not... I realize symbols play an important role in conveying the idea and many have generic meanings; but then, why feel the need to replicate imagery directly from soviet propaganda posters? Are they not trying to push their own set of ideas? Wouldn't they want to set themselves apart from those perceptions?

 

[stilicho]

No. And I resent other people telling me what I'm doing. I wouldn't mind if you added the caveat "You seem" or "IMO".

Anything is possible. Given that I was an early critic and I've carefully listened to critics and proponents. I have not dismissed any complaint or fair and objective analysis out of hand. I lack any certainty, I don't believe in any absolute truth or subscribe to any ideology or dogma. Given all of that I would have to say that I think think that you suggestion to be very, very unlikely. However, my best shot at getting at the truth is to always question my own held beliefs. And I'm happy to say that I'm one of a few on this thread that does that and have made known my doubts. You?

I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what their agenda is. There's one in Vancouver and in less than a month the site has become a rat-infested junkyard costing taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars to maintain. Mind you, Vancouver is also home to the Critical Mass cycling "movement" whose only aim is to disrupt traffic flow and cost everyone time and money. It's not the super-rich who worry about open roadways; it's average people including bus commuters.

Actually, in Vancouver, the tents have managed to make the homeless considerably less homeless and less hungry, which might be a good thing. They don't seem to be as cranky about homeless people or drug dealers there as they are in New York City and other places.

My enduring criticism is that these people really don't appear to have an agenda although they have a really great slogan which could have been the keystone of a marvelous marketing campaign.

Do they have a Critical Mass cycling "movement" in your hometown? In essence, a lot of them in Occupy Vancouver are really the same people.

 

[Alt+F4]

Stephen Colbert Infiltrates Occupation Wall Street dressed as Che Guevara:

http://gothamist.com/2011/11/01/stephen_colbert_infiltrates_occupy.php

 

[stilicho]

Stephen Colbert Infiltrates Occupation Wall Street dressed as Che Guevara:

http://gothamist.com/2011/11/01/stephen_colbert_infiltrates_occupy.php

Did you see his interview with "Ketchup"?

 

[Checkmite]

I apologize for dismissing this out of hand but IMO it doesn't matter. At all. If Wahington made substantive changes addressing key issues of crime and jobs or other significant issues the movement would end.

What makes you so sure that the unsatisfied fractions would not endeavor to maintain the movement's presence?

As a whole? I thought we had gotten past that.

By the Zuccotti Park protestors then, as related by their consensus-based "general assembly".

I think that is absurd. It's that kind of thinking that frustrates me, but let me hasten to add. It's just an opinion and I can respect it. In any event, assuming your premise, you should be glad right? Or do you actually care about the movement and want it to succeed?

I would rather something happened to change the current status quo than nothing. The OWS movement as it stands now discourages positive and specific action in favor of catchphrases and drumming; although it ostensibly "calls for change", it has yet to demonstrate any willingness to take a leadership role in bringing that change - both in total and as "fractions". Like John Lennon "working for world peace" by refusing to get out of bed. Hell, I worked for world peace almost all day this past Sunday.

The same as it was for the civil rights movement of the 60s.

So nothing, then? After all, the civil rights movement did result in change after the various groups diverged and began to take positive action rather than hope for it.

 

[RandFan]

...why feel the need to replicate imagery directly from soviet propaganda posters?

Obviously they identify with it. The ideal of socialism\anarchy\communism has not died for many and we could discuss that at length. The salient point, IMO, is that it doesn't define the movement anymore than that imagery defined the civil rights movement.

Look, I think it fair to bring up and criticize so long as you don't use it as McCarthy did to try and make everyone guilty by association. The idea that you must be opposed to the movement or you identify with the iconography is a fallacy.

 

[Alt+F4]

Did you see his interview with "Ketchup"?

Yes, that it...Ketchup <last name not Hitler>. The best part is when Colbert dunked his sausage in the champaigne.

 

[RandFan]

My enduring criticism is that these people really don't appear to have an agenda although they have a really great slogan which could have been the keystone of a marvelous marketing campaign.

At this time I think this is entirely beside the point but thats fine. We can agree to disagree.

As to your question, I live in a remote are of the Mojave Desert, pop 12,000 and few tract homes. Critical mass? We don't even have a parade on the 4th of July.

 

[RandFan]

What makes you so sure that the unsatisfied fractions would not endeavor to maintain the movement's presence?

Don't know. Don't care. Perhaps it will become important.

By the Zuccotti Park protestors then, as related by their consensus-based "general assembly".

Personally I've no interest in it. I'll keep an eye open to what develops.

I would rather something happened to change the current status quo than nothing. The OWS movement as it stands now discourages positive and specific action in favor of catchphrases and drumming...

I respect your opinion even if I think it is wrong.

So nothing, then?

Not sure how to charachterize this, I guess if it's not a straw man it's a non sequitur.

Some very, very important points.

• The civil rights movement occurred over many years, perhaps more than a decade.
• There were many set backs to the movement(s)
• There were a lot of starts and stops. A snap shot of any single event or time frame would likely make the movement appear to be a failure.

I don't expect that this single event will likely be the turning point. If politicians don't make changes then the discontent will live beyond OWS and there will be more protests and unrest. At best I would hope that OWS leads to voting out of office politicians who will not take positive action. But I think it unlikely. I don't think this is going to be like the Arab spring. We are likely talking many months and perhaps years.

Focusing on just this movement, it's excesses and error is a mistake similar to noting that the iceberg that hit the titanic had dirt on it. JMO.

 

[stilicho]

Yes, that it...Ketchup <last name not Hitler>. The best part is when Colbert dunked his sausage in the champaigne.

The Comedy Central guys are really bending over backwards to help make these people actually mean something but they just come across as dimwits. Why not send up people who actually make sense? What was that "female form" crap all about? I wonder how much of her friend's belly laughs they had to edit out because he had that "why am I here with this lunatic" look on his face much of the time.

The Occupy Sesame Street movement is looking much more authentic all the time. The one in Vancouver planned to take over a church to protest residential schools, the police all showed up to anticipate trouble, and then the protesters failed to materialise, arguing that they were on "Indian time not police time".

Usually it takes a "movement" several years to become a self-parody but this one's become a walking talking joke within a couple of weeks.

 

[Stacko]

The Comedy Central guys are really bending over backwards to help make these people actually mean something but they just come across as dimwits. Why not send up people who actually make sense? What was that "female form" crap all about? I wonder how much of her friend's belly laughs they had to edit out because he had that "why am I here with this lunatic" look on his face much of the time.

I wonder how many takes it took for them to get past her name. I could see a production hand cracking up when they heard that.

The Occupy Sesame Street movement is looking much more authentic all the time. The one in Vancouver planned to take over a church to protest residential schools, the police all showed up to anticipate trouble, and then the protesters failed to materialise, arguing that they were on "Indian time not police time".

There's something vaguely racist in that Indian time thing. It reminded me of that episode of Penn & Teller's BS that had the cultural sensitivities consultant that was talking about Black and German time.

 

[stilicho]

At this time I think this is entirely beside the point but thats fine. We can agree to disagree.

As to your question, I live in a remote are of the Mojave Desert, pop 12,000 and few tract homes. Critical mass? We don't even have a parade on the 4th of July.

Should be pretty easy up there to identify the 1%. That would be just over 120 people. Or does this only work on a county, state, or national level?

Do you agree with the Canadian "Adbusters" guy who thinks the OWS people should try to form a third party? IMO, that's absolute political suicide; much better to co-opt a Democrat or two or someone like Ron Paul. OTOH, they might just be scaring the hell out of the Democrats who figure they're going to split their party and send the moderates who voted for Obama for fun to vote for whichever mofo wins the Republican turkey shoot.

Fun fact: If OWS had taken all their money on OCT 03 and invested it in Wall Street (S&P Index), and in spite of a couple of days of hits from EU indecision, they'd have earned a 14% return in one month! That's a whole lot of tofu!!