Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Not Scooby]

I think I may not have interpreted Not Scooby's post correctly. I don't have much of an opinion on the issue of whether Guede was a police informant or not. Your argument that you think that would have been made public by now seems good but not compelling. A big chunk of the police force must have realized that RS/AK were innocent and yet nary a peep. Police stick together the world over and if anybody could keep secret the fact that Guede was an informant it would be the police, especially since the number of police that knew could be a very small number.

I took Not Scooby's post to suggest the opposite about Stefanoni's results, just pushing stuff to get the results she wanted and believed in. Not actual intentional fraud, especially as part of a larger conspiracy.

The informant theory merely starts the ball rolling and perhaps accounts for a few other actions. Incompetence and saving face driven by the intrigue and press coverage accounts for most of it.

 

[davefoc]

...

Incompetence also does not explain why his reduced sentence was not contested. The evidence indicates more than jus incompetence.

I have tried to understand whether the reduction in sentence was typical for this sort of thing in Italy or was very much out of the ordinary.

My uninformed theory is that it was reduced in return for support of the prosecution's theory that RS/AK were there. The timing isn't quite right to fully support that unless you accept the idea that Mignini's goal all along was to tie RS/AK in and he was going to do anything he could do to push that along right from the start.

The informant theory might make sense, but I still think it's more likely that the attack on RS/AK developed out of nature of how Mignini saw the world. His prior involvement with this kind of prosecution suggests that to me. There are American examples of this kind of thing. And there are many American examples of prosecutor's refusing to change their minds in the face of very strong evidence. It is weird to me to think that somebody on this evidence could have tried to put Knox in jail for 26 years including some solitary confinement at the beginning but it is not weird when one looks at the excesses that other prosecutors have been involved in.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

IIRC Knox family humbly asked for some privacy. By linking to the tabloid trash sites you not only let the tabloids cash in, you also give the paparazzi they hired to stalk her a financial incentive to do so even more. Just my opinion.

I think that posting such photos here is not cool, too. In fact rather creepy, PMF style. Knox didn't ask to be a public person, nor does she seek publicity now. I don't think she'll be happy about some stalker's pics being reposted all over the web.

I'm sure snook meant no harm. There are going to be pictures of her out and about. It's a catch-22 because supporters wanted and needed to draw attention to the case and now that there's a substantial number of people who have become actively involved and/or followed the case it's a bit hard to do an about-face and turn off the interest. While I agree we shouldn't post links to tabloid pictures for the reasons you stated, I'm sure it was not done maliciously.

 

[Antony]

IIRC Knox family humbly asked for some privacy. By linking to the tabloid trash sites you not only let the tabloids cash in, you also give the paparazzi they hired to stalk her a financial incentive to do so even more. Just my opinion.

I think that posting such photos here is not cool, too. In fact rather creepy, PMF style. Knox didn't ask to be a public person, nor does she seek publicity now. I don't think she'll be happy about some stalker's pics being reposted all over the web.

I heartily agree. Although I can understand the sentiments of those who feel satisfaction at images of Amanda walking in the streets after being in prison for no reason, it doesn't take much imagination to understand how it is for her to have some unknown person pointing a camera at her.

While I would also like to have news of what she and her family are going to do next, I know very well that they have no obligation to go public in any way. After 4 years of being in the media showcase through no choice of their own, they are now demonstrating what is really meant by the words "dignified and restrained".

 

[Grinder]

How many informants can you name? The police have tons of them.

What possible relevance is there in how many informants I can name? I'm sure that there are numerous informants in the world, so what?

You think that Rudy was such a high level informant that the Milan police knew of him? You really think that the police across Italy check with the home town police before arresting a suspect?

It seems in Italy that people aren't run in the way they are here. They are issued a citation much like the noise ticket Amanda received.

If Rudy was an informant, he was a small time informant. He wasn't involved, by anybody's account, in big time drug dealing. He didn't show it in wealth as he didn't have money to pay the rent.

It is most definitely not in their best interest to reveal them. Ever. Not only will it put a life at risk, it will jeopardize every informant relationship they have. In this case it would make them look really bad. You cannot draw any conclusion from the lack of a leak. That is the type of thinking that made this case drag on.

No, what made this case drag on was a combination of things. Hellman said he would have brought the case. Amanda did herself no favors with her statements, inability to articulate what she did that night and the limited evidence that was found. The defense was pretty lame in the first trial.

As for Milan, don't you think they checked him out? AFAIK they shipped him back to Perugia, which is consistent with him being an informant. He could have been an informant there or even one at some higher level. It is mighty coincidental that both departments let him walk. Not charging someone is not incompetence - it's a choice.

Why would they ship him back? Why wouldn't they just release him? They didn't exactly ship back, at most they put him on a train. They seem to wait years to charge people for low level crimes in Italy.

Incompetence also does not explain why his reduced sentence was not contested. The evidence indicates more than jus incompetence.

He had the best lawyer of the bunch. He was needed ongoing for the Amanda and Raffaele trial. Mignini didn't want him pissed and speaking up for A & R even if he would be lying for the kids. It was my understanding that taking the fast track trial and saying he regretted not doing more for Meredith entitled him to the reduced sentence. Remember at the time of his final appeal, Mignini was in the midst of charging Amanda with wielding the knife and being the force that caused the entire crime.

 

[Dougm]

No worries snook1, I would have posted it had I seen it earlier as well. I had not considered what has been pointed out and I think it would be a good policy to refrain from this in the future.

At least no one here would make snide remarks about whatever Amanda chooses to dress up as, like it is somehow a commentary on the murder. Those PGers started down the road 4 years ago with the MySpace page pics, and they can't stop!

 

[Paninaro]

Patrick Lumumba on Italian TV, probably getting good money to slander Amanda Knox. First he calls her a murderer and more, then he wants her to apologize. The guy is really a piece of work.

http://www.video.mediaset.it/video/...atrick-lumumba-ecco-chi-e-davvero-amanda.html

 

[davefoc]

I have tried to understand whether the reduction in sentence was typical for this sort of thing in Italy or was very much out of the ordinary.

...

This seems like a key issue as to figuring out whether Guede got a deal whether for being an informant or turning on RS/AK (as I suspect). A lot of articles seem to suggest dropping the sentence to 16 years wasn't all that unusual and Guede might get out in less than that for some reason.

I'm not Italian and I don't know what the norms are there. I would have thought people would have been really scared about letting a guy like this back on the street in less than 15 years. In this case a clear cut goal of the imprisonment had to be protecting society and 15 years sounds a lot shy of what I would have thought necessary to accomplish this. But maybe in Italy it's SOP to let heinous rapist murderers back on the street in this short of time?

ETA: I watched a little of the video Paninaro linked to above. I don't speak Italian so I didn't understand much except what I could gather from a tiny knowledge of Spanish. But I didn't hear RS mentioned once. What's with that?

 

[Kaosium]

This seems like a key issue as to figuring out whether Guede got a deal whether for being an informant or turning on RS/AK (as I suspect). A lot of articles seem to suggest dropping the sentence to 16 years wasn't all that unusual and Guede might get out in less than that for some reason.

I'm not Italian and I don't know what the norms are there. I would have thought people would have been really scared about letting a guy like this back on the street in less than 15 years. In this case a clear cut goal of the imprisonment had to be protecting society and 15 years sounds a lot shy of what I would have thought necessary to accomplish this. But maybe in Italy it's SOP to let heinous rapist murderers back on the street in this short of time?

It's not that unusual, however Guede will get out a little sooner as his 'mitigations' weren't contested. A 'life' sentence for this crime is 30 years, Guede got mitigations for 'not acting alone' and 'showing remorse' as he said he was sorry he didn't do more to save Meredith, which reduced it to 24 years, they were not appealed by the prosecution. As a consequence of choosing the 'fast track' option, which abbreviates the trial of the first instance and basically skips the second, he received a further 1/3 reduction to his sentence, bringing it down to 16 years. At some point Barbie Nadeau reports that when she was having lunch with Valter Biscotti he got a call and said he'd gotten a deal for Guede, my guess is if that was accurate then it might have been for Guede's vague spontaneous statement in exchange for them not appealing the 'mitigations' or insisting on 'aggravations.' At any rate with 30 being reduced by 1/3rd he'd have ended up with only a 20 year sentence regardless.

Amanda and Raffaele also received mitigations for basically 'being good kids before this,' which were appealed by the prosecution, so in the appeal they faced a potential 30 year sentence with 9 months solitary for Amanda, and some also for Raffaele though I don't recall how much. (6 mos?) They also had charges piled on for 'staging' the crime scene, 'transporting' the knife, and Amanda an extra year for the Lumumba slander, bringing their sentences to 25 and 26 years total. This is generally the province of the victims' lawyer, to insist on additional 'aggravations' and contest 'mitigations' as the Italian sentencing system is generally lenient and this allows for a voice for maximum punishment, the money is often irrelevant as many murderers are basically indigent anyway. This is why sometimes prominent personages in the community will take up the 'civil part' for especially heinous crimes if the victim's family couldn't afford it.

Once they're in jail further reductions are possible if they stay out of trouble, as every few years a review board or somesuch looks at it and can reduce the sentence further. Thus were this a normal situation Rudy Guede might not have to serve the whole 16 year sentence. I wonder if that will apply in this case however, as that's usually tied (also) to the perpetrator admitting his guilt and being 'forgiven,' Italy in some ways is still a very Catholic country. So far he has just admitted to not doing enough to save Meredith when others that kinda looked like Raffaele and mighta sounded like Amanda actually did the foul deed. This is still the 'official story' of the prosecution, however I wonder just how fooled that 'review board' or whatever it was will be.

So even if he's 'good' he might not get those reductions, and it's possible his sentence could be increased due to that calunnia charged asked for right before the verdict, though personally from an objective view I'd have to say that might not be fair either as the letter just refuted Alessi, didn't actually say anything specific about Amanda and Raffaele and ought not be considered actionable as they'd just been convicted of the crime anyway so it could be argued all he was doing was agreeing with the court decision but nothing more specific than what he already said. When he was in court he just sat there and didn't even seem to acknowledge it the way I read it, though this was tough as it was another very bad media day and they ran with 'Guede accuses Raffaele and Amanda' but that's not exactly what happened. I think the most likely scenario is someone either from the prosecution or his own lawyer's team wrote that up for him to discredit Alessi in the media (not that tough to do) and he signed it under their advisement after the first verdict and then they told him to stay as mute as he could in court to avoid further charges.

It's a complicated formula and this is the best understanding I have of it. Guede got a nice package, but not that much better than it would have been. What I find interesting is that this happened at the same time that the prosecution was pursuing the maximum possible penalty for Amanda (especially) and Raffaele. Broken_English at the IIP site said that had the Court validated the prosecution's appeal, Amanda would have received the most stringent sentence for a girl her age (under 25) since someone convicted in 1699! I wonder if he meant 1969, at any rate Mignini was going for a record.

ETA: I watched a little of the video Paninaro linked to above. I don't speak Italian so I didn't understand much except what I could gather from a tiny knowledge of Spanish. But I didn't hear RS mentioned once. What's with that?

Patrick has no beef with Raffaele, it's Amanda that 'ruined his life' and currently Italian justice concurs, it was she that caused him to sit in jail for two whole weeks. He hasn't shut up about it since the day he was released. My guess is the environment in Perugia probably reinforces that, perhaps even more so now as the Perugians probably don't want to face up to what they did and how they excused police exuberance and 'mistakes' and so cruelly condemned her in thought and deed. They might be thinking 'she has to have deserved some of that right? Look at what she did to Patrick!' Thus Patrick gets a sympathetic audience to snivel to, and they have 'evidence' of her perfidious nature, so maybe she's a nasty bit of goods anyway, eh?

 

[Not Scooby]

What possible relevance is there in how many informants I can name? I'm sure that there are numerous informants in the world, so what?

You attributed value to the lack of a leak. If you cannot show other leaks then there is no significance to the lack of on in this case.

You think that Rudy was such a high level informant that the Milan police knew of him? You really think that the police across Italy check with the home town police before arresting a suspect?

Do they run names for warrants? Do you know that he was not arrested? If so from where did people hear about the non-arrest? Do I think jurisdictions communicate? Yes.

It seems in Italy that people aren't run in the way they are here. They are issued a citation much like the noise ticket Amanda received.

You get noise tickets here as well. What evidence do you offer that armed burglars are not run in?

If Rudy was an informant, he was a small time informant. He wasn't involved, by anybody's account, in big time drug dealing. He didn't show it in wealth as he didn't have money to pay the rent.

Midnight Run was not a documentary. Big money makers are not informants unless you consider those who turn state's evidence. Informants give tips in exchange for cops cutting them slack. I know this from the documentary series Special Unit 2.

No, what made this case drag on was a combination of things. Hellman said he would have brought the case. Amanda did herself no favors with her statements, inability to articulate what she did that night and the limited evidence that was found. The defense was pretty lame in the first trial.

That does not contradict my theory about the impetus.

Why would they ship him back? Why wouldn't they just release him? They didn't exactly ship back, at most they put him on a train. They seem to wait years to charge people for low level crimes in Italy.

Because he was of no value to them. Let Perugia deal with his crimes.

He had the best lawyer of the bunch. He was needed ongoing for the Amanda and Raffaele trial. Mignini didn't want him pissed and speaking up for A & R even if he would be lying for the kids. It was my understanding that taking the fast track trial and saying he regretted not doing more for Meredith entitled him to the reduced sentence. Remember at the time of his final appeal, Mignini was in the midst of charging Amanda with wielding the knife and being the force that caused the entire crime.

How do you judge his lawyer's skills? By the same results I say point to him being an informant whose silence was needed to save face?


Can anyone point me to the fingerprint evidence for Guede? When were they found?

 

[charlatan]

At least no one here would make snide remarks about whatever Amanda chooses to dress up as, like it is somehow a commentary on the murder. Those PGers started down the road 4 years ago with the MySpace page pics, and they can't stop!

It's the entire case in microcosm, isn't it? Amanda heads to a party at someone's apartment dressed as a soccer player and the story somehow becomes that she dressed as a cat burglar with the not-so-subtle insinuation that she's dancing on Meredith's grave by being out and about (as if she's supposed to cower at home every Halloween rather than spending time with friends). We've already got the obligatory UK tabloid article with the predictable slam from John Kercher:

Meredith’s father John said: “I think it’s very insensitive of Amanda Knox, especially considering it is the fourth anniversary of Meredith’s death.

“The anniversary is obviously a very difficult time for our family and images like this don’t help.”

Thus turning yet another non-story into yet another Knox news cycle. For someone who claims there's been too much emphasis on Amanda Knox, Mr. Kercher sure spends a lot of time talking about Amanda Knox.

 

[Fine]

* * *
Can anyone point me to the fingerprint evidence for Guede? When were they found?

____________________________

Scooby,

Rudy's fingerprints were bloody fingerprints, set in Meredith's blood. The prints were on a pillow case. The pillow was found under Meredith's body.

///

 

[davefoc]

Thanks for the responses Kaosium. It seems like there's enough wiggle room in the facts surrounding this that one can see the situation as Guede got a deal associated with for turning on RS/AK or for some other reason not publically described or Guede just had good lawyers that got him a good but routine deal through no actions of his own other than the ones publically described.

Could be another thing we will never know the truth about. But I don't see him writing that letter on his own naming RS/AK without some kind of quid pro quo and right now that seems like the most likely story to me.

It is kind of an amazing leap that he was convicted of rape and murder and he seems to have gotten a mitigated sentence for saying he was sorry he hadn't done more to stop it. You'd think a prosecutor might have something to say about that unless he had a reason for not challenging it that he didn't release to the public.

 

[davefoc]

...
Can anyone point me to the fingerprint evidence for Guede? When were they found?

____________________________

Scooby,

Rudy's fingerprints were bloody fingerprints, set in Meredith's blood. The prints were on a pillow case. The pillow was found under Meredith's body.

///

From the Massei report

...This pillow was in fact found under the young lady’s buttocks and the handprint, from Rudy Guede’s hand and stained with the victim’s blood, shows that Meredith had already been struck and was bleeding; ...

http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

I have seen it described as a palm print other places. I hadn't thought about it before but is it routine to be able to get a useable palm print in blood off of a pillow case?

As an aside, and maybe this is a little gross, but I didn't know it at all. Guede's DNA was found in Kercher's vagina but not his sperm. I don't know enough about crime scenes to know if this is strange or not but it surprised me.

...She pointed out these signs in images which documented a colouring at the level of the sexual organs and furthermore in a swab taken from the level of the vagina, which was negative in regard to the presence of biological material identifiable as sperm, but positive for the presence of biological material identifiable as belonging to a male subject, and she observed, ‚finding in the vagina ... biological material traceable to a male subject...permits us to say that biological material belonging precisely to this subject came in contact with the vagina ... It could be saliva, they could be epithelial cells flaking from the hand, or it could be indicative of penetration ... that occurred without ejaculation or on the part of an aspermic subject"

 

[RoseMontague]

From the Massei report
http://truejustice.org/ee/documents/perugia/TheMasseiReport.pdf

I have seen it described as a palm print other places. I hadn't thought about it before but is it routine to be able to get a useable palm print in blood off of a pillow case?

As an aside, and maybe this is a little gross, but I didn't know it at all. Guede's DNA was found in Kercher's vagina but not his sperm. I don't know enough about crime scenes to know if this is strange or not but it surprised me.

Even more reason to test the stain on the pillow.

 

[pilot padron]

Rest of story

Amanda dressed up for Halloween!

The rest is here:
http://photos.tmz.com/galleries/amanda_knox_halloween_costume#tab=most_recent&id=102971

Good to see her!

The "rest of the commentary" from TMZ Article below the picture does not seem to be as "happy to see her" as you are.

In case you ....errrr.... 'missed'..... it with your picture only link:

Amanda Knox's Halloween costume proved two things: one, she's got a great sense of humor when it comes to crime -- and two ... she's not so bright.

And on a strangely semi-related note ... what if vampires got herpes?

Check out TMZ on TV -- click here to see your local listings!
http://www.tmz.com/
__________________________

The snarky "herpes" sarcasm is more like the uncomplimentary stuff TMZ usually puts up when discussing OJ or Casey Anthony

 

[Grinder]

The idea that R&A were framed to protect a low level informant that was "paid" by the police cutting him slack seems totally absurd to me.

The ILE didn't have Rudy's evidence until well after R&A had been questioned and arrested. They had also arrested Patrick. They soon realized that there must be a fourth suspect because the prints didn't match Patrick or Raffaele.

If the theory that the Perugian police were "taking care" of Rudy is correct there is no way that "warrants" would be issued on him that could be seen nationwide with an asterisk that indicated just ship him back because wink-wink he's "special".

Reports say that Biscotti has been sought after widely since the case as he did a great job for Rudy.

The only evidence that led the police to Rudy were the palm and fingerprints. If your theory were correct why would the ILE even have brought him back. Why didn't they just say they couldn't ID anybody. They definitely didn't have his DNA on file.

The idea that because I don't know the names of informants in Perugia means anything well seems very odd.

As for how the police treat criminals - I don't know first hand but Curatolo was busted for heroin dealing and wasn't tried for over three years and was left on the streets. The women from the school that came forward was not reported to be irate that he hadn't been run in.

Second hand information about Italy relates that it's hard to get anything done with the exception of having lost cell phones returned.

 

[daydreamer]

Costume Explained

The "rest of the commentary" from TMZ Article below the picture does not seem to be as "happy to see her" as you are.

In case you ....errrr.... 'missed'..... it with your picture only link:

Amanda Knox's Halloween costume proved two things: one, she's got a great sense of humor when it comes to crime -- and two ... she's not so bright.

And on a strangely semi-related note ... what if vampires got herpes?

Check out TMZ on TV -- click here to see your local listings!
http://www.tmz.com/
__________________________

The snarky "herpes" sarcasm is more like the uncomplimentary stuff TMZ usually puts up when discussing OJ or Casey Anthony

From PMF.net:
Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:07 am Post subject: Re: XXIII. MAIN DISCUSSION, SEPT 22 -


Amanda Knox Is Going As Roger Levesque For Halloween, Apparently

Jason Davis, October 31, 2011

Here’s a photo of the recently exonerated Amanda Knox sporting a Seattle Sounders scarf and wearing the traditional French guy drawn on mustache and beard. We’re going to assume she’s supposed to be Sounders forward Roger Levesque (who is not actually French by the way, he just has French facial hair).

KCKRS http://www.kckrs.com/amanda-knox-is-going-as-roger-levesque-for-halloween-apparently/

 

[Diocletus]

The "rest of the commentary" from TMZ Article below the picture does not seem to be as "happy to see her" as you are.

In case you ....errrr.... 'missed'..... it with your picture only link:

Amanda Knox's Halloween costume proved two things: one, she's got a great sense of humor when it comes to crime -- and two ... she's not so bright.

And on a strangely semi-related note ... what if vampires got herpes?

Check out TMZ on TV -- click here to see your local listings!
http://www.tmz.com/
__________________________

The snarky "herpes" sarcasm is more like the uncomplimentary stuff TMZ usually puts up when discussing OJ or Casey Anthony

Hellmann said you're wrong.

 

[RoseMontague]

What difference does it make? She can go to a Haloween party wearing whatever she wants. She is innocent of theft, innocent of staging a crime scene. Life goes on, made difficult for her by the tabloids that nitpick every pic.

If it were me, I would go as a witch complete with hat and mop. Show your defiance.

Here is the opinion from an Italian blogger commenting on the stress in the British press.

http://translate.googleusercontent....empre/&usg=ALkJrhgqixQ43k_rdC0OTpzqEP-DafmwcQ