Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

Status
Not open for further replies.
Stout said:
Hear hear :)

That's one of the reasons I like this discussion format, I get both sides of the argument and presented with ideas/perceptions/knowledge, things that help me at least try to understand an issue.
Click to expand...
Cool :)
 
'The protesters seem more adult than politicians and plutocrats
With a few nylon tents and some amateurish banners, the Occupy movement has rattled the establishment'


"""... Much of the mainstream media side with the establishment by dismissing them as an incoherent and unrepresentative fringe. Well-paid television interviewers sneer that the protesters are spoilt brats while grand columnists scoff that they will achieve nothing.

Yet they have already done something fairly remarkable. My congratulations to the encampment outside St Paul's for sending almost the entire British establishment into a tizzy every bit as confused as some of the protesters themselves.

...


The protesters shun formal leaders and hierarchies – and I also don't see why they should be criticised for this at a time when conventional leaders and hierarchies have been so conspicuously useless. Here are some recent scenes in establishment politics. Silvio Berlusconi displays his incomparable charms by describing Angela Merkel as "culona ichiavabile" ("an un **** able lard arse"). Rick Perry, contender to become Republican candidate for the great office of president of the United States, questions where Barack Obama was born five months after the White House released his long-form birth certificate, and excuses himself by saying: "It's fun to poke at him." A punch-up breaks out on the floor of the Italian parliament between one right-wing member of the government and an even more right-wing member. Nicolas Sarkozy tells David Cameron to "shut up" because he is "sick" of him. David Cameron elevates the tone at prime minister's questions by shouting: "Complete mug!" at Ed Miliband."""

(The author is a middle-of-the road political commentator)
 
Stout said:
Not you personally, but the entire general assembly concept is modelled on anarchist principals. Not the black leather jacket punk rocker version of anarchy, but the real thing.
Click to expand...


"The direct democratic process adopted by Occupy Wall Street has deep roots in American radical history. It was widely employed in the civil rights movement and by the Students for a Democratic Society. But its current form has developed from within movements like feminism and even spiritual traditions (both Quaker and Native American) as much as from within anarchism itself."

- Occupy Wall Street
 
RandFan said:
Given that I've listed a number of reasons that many have expressed then that's characterizing my point.

My point is that we can't speak for any of them. No, the group isn't monolithic. However many reasons for being there have been clearly defined. Some I strongly disagree with and have said so here. I don't want to end capitalism as many in the movement do. I do want to end govt corruption as many in the movement want also to end.

So, could you please stick with my actual arguments and skip the straw men? Look, it's possible I said something that was confusing or even, gasp, wrong. I've eaten crow in this thread already. If you have an example POST A QUOTE. If was wrong or inconsistent I'll apologize. So, quote me or please don't put words in my mouth. Isn't that fair?
Click to expand...

That was just some ball busting. Don't you think it would be kind of obnoxious if people kept just saying, "but that is an anecdote" every time you post a protester's complaint and just ignored the complaint?
 
respect said:
That was just some ball busting. Don't you think it would be kind of obnoxious if people kept just saying, "but that is an anecdote" every time you post a protester's complaint and just ignored the complaint?
Click to expand...

except the evidence against the bankers for fraud and criminal contempt is ar more than anecdotal.
 

Attachments

  • emptycell.jpg
    emptycell.jpg
    26 KB · Views: 69
WildCat said:
How can they agree with views of "Occupy Wall Street" when nobody can even say what those views are?
Click to expand...
I've posted links of interviews that state exactly what many of the views are. You are simply repeating a meme, propaganda. The liberals did the same to the Tea Party protestors. Go back through the thread and look for my posts.
 
RandFan said:
I've posted links of interviews that state exactly what many of the views are.
Click to expand...
Exactly, so anyone who agrees with any one of the "many" views means they "agree with OWS"?

You're saying that individual participants in OWS speak for OWS when it suits your purpose (such as that poll you posted) and at the same time claiming they don't speak for OWS when it doesn't serve your purpose (such as the communist and anarchist participation).
 
respect said:
That was just some ball busting. Don't you think it would be kind of obnoxious if people kept just saying, "but that is an anecdote" every time you post a protester's complaint and just ignored the complaint?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say a god damn thing about anecdotes if anecdote and invective weren't the staple for certain protestors implying and or asserting that these anecdotes are proof of something substantive about OWS

Look, I seriously resent the belittling of people who are simply asserting their rights. I don't mind complaints and criticisms. Those are constructive and valid. It's the 'freeloading dirty hippie" meme that raises my ire. It's propaganda from the right to discredit and silence. While that itself is protected speech I find it counterproductive and wrong. I think it is the foolish consistency of small minds. The best response IMO is to keep reminding people that they are only engaging in ad hominem and not addressing the complaints of the protestors or being honestly and objectively critical of the entire affair. And that, IMHO, is not foolish consistency.
 
Last edited:
RandFan said:
I wouldn't say a god damn thing about anecdotes if anecdote and invective weren't the staple for certain protestors implying and or asserting that these anecdotes are proof of something substantive about OWS

Look, I seriously resent the belittling of people who are simply asserting their rights. I don't mind complaints and criticisms. Those are constructive and valid. It's the 'freeloading dirty hippie" meme that raises my ire. It's propaganda from the right to discredit and silence. While that itself is protected speech I find it counterproductive and wrong. I think it is the foolish consistency of small minds. The best response IMO is to keep reminding people that they are only engaging in ad hominem and not addressing the complaints of the protestors or being honestly and objectively critical of the entire affair. And that, IMHO, is not foolish consistency.
Click to expand...

yeah!
 
WildCat said:
You're saying that individual participants in OWS speak for OWS when it suits your purpose...
Click to expand...
You are looking for a gotcha moment that just isn't there. It's not about anarchy vs capitalism. They agree that the status quo must end. How it ends isn't the point. They agree that the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is a recipe for disaster. They agree that we need jobs. They agree that we need change.

So, I gladly stand by the poll. And no, I'm not saying what you think I'm saying.
 
I thought this was interesting from the Willamette Week's article "Notes From the Occupation 48 hours inside Occupy Portland"
“You know why they’re not shutting us down?” Tyler says of City Hall. “Because they like us to live like this. ‘Y’all are peasants.’
Click to expand...

In other articles, people claim that we live in a police state and that they are being deprived of their constitutional rights when police have removed occupiers from the public parks, but here we see someone very resentful for the opposite reason. The important theme is the same: that we are victims being persecuted by "them" of one kind or another.
Another great quote from the same article:
The kitchen crew has limited electricity and no refrigerator. They cook with whatever is donated each day—much of it from factory farms. Many Occupiers worry they’re not being sustainable.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
respect said:
You should probably contact appropriate investigators if you have evidence of these alleged crimes.
Click to expand...
It's been done. Turns out that the appropriate authorities are promised cushy jobs after they leave the public sector by the very people they are supposed to investigate, so they investigate, ask the the financial institutions to self regulate and then they destroy all records of the investigation. No, I'm NOT making that up.

S.E.C. Files Were Illegally Destroyed, Lawyer Says

Taibbi on SEC’s Records Destruction Reveals How Deeply Entrenched Official Corrpution Is
 
I chatted with the local group online last night while they had their general assembly. Not only couldn't they get agreement on putting together a police liason committee, they actively opposed it on the basis that nobody could speak for the group. I tried to point out gently that the liason could just be a point of contact with no real authority to negotiate, but they voted it down en masse.
 
RandFan said:
You are looking for a gotcha moment that just isn't there.
Click to expand...
Glad to see you agree the poll means absolutely nothing then.

RandFan said:
It's not about anarchy vs capitalism.
Click to expand...
It certainly is for many of the protestors.

RandFan said:
They agree that the status quo must end. How it ends isn't the point. They agree that the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is a recipe for disaster. They agree that we need jobs. They agree that we need change.
Click to expand...
Platitudes, the same sort I've been hearing since the 1970s. "Things need to get better" is not something a movement can form around, because there are as many ideas as to how to make things better as there are participants. Unfortunately, many of their ideas are mutually exclusive.

RandFan said:
So, I gladly stand by the poll. And no, I'm not saying what you think I'm saying.
Click to expand...
It's not what you're saying, it's what you're doing. Posting a poll that shows that strong support for the positions of OWS, because that position can be pretty much anything you like. But no OWS ideas can be criticized, because PWS doesn't have an official position on anything.
 
WildCat said:
Glad to see you agree the poll means absolutely nothing then.
Click to expand...
I don't follow.

It certainly is for many of the protestors.
Click to expand...
Yes.

Platitudes...
Click to expand...
No. Not at all. For the last 10 years unemployment has been high and and things are getting worse for the lower and middle class. We don't agree with all of the specifics or how to solve the problems but otherwise it's not a mystery and it's not just platitudes. We want the jobs bill implemented. Raise tax rates. Investigate the corruption in the banking industry and wall street. Those are not platitudes. Some, many, most would like to see an end to capitalism. I don't agree with that.

It's not what you're saying, it's what you're doing. Posting a poll that shows that strong support for the positions of OWS, because that position can be pretty much anything you like.
Click to expand...
I don't claim that it's pretty much anything. I claim that things in our nation are particularly bad and they can be traced to a lack of the politicians to focus on the needs of citizens and instead care more about those in power.

But no OWS ideas can be criticized...
Click to expand...
Straw man as I myself have made criticisms and have agreed with a number of criticisms made and I have been willing to discuss those criticisms..
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom