JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[I Ratant]

So rather than describing why any of the sum total of evidence is (apparently) persuausive that LHO didn't act alone, or why any of the offered evidence is flawed (so that would be, for example, the Warren Commission, the rifle, the ballistics, etc) we are just offered a "not good enough" from the (subjective) opinion of one poster, with an illogical demand we base our own opinions on a single piece of evidence?

Ok, let's see if the same rules work in reverse: Dupply one single piece of evidence beyond doubt that LHO was NOT acting alone. Just one.

.
I recall seeing a diagram of Dealey Plaza with -all- the shooters... 78 of them, positioned and the trajectories of their bullets.
It's amazing there were so few hits on JFK, and only one other person in the car!

 

[I Ratant]

Take the motorcade route...
Look around...
http://www.vpike.com/?e=32.779415,-96.808022:293.02

 

[catsmate]

So you set up the challenge and get to decide what answers are right? No wonder you claim no one has met it.

Meh, it's par for the course with woosters.

 

[Walter Ego]

I've read bits of Bugliosi's book and was surprised by the evidence against Jim Garrison.

I had seen Oliver Stone's movie before and was mostly confused by it at a time when I was probably of the age to be most convinced by it.

I just wondered what this whole homosexual-gand thing meant. It seemed to trade on innuendo.

Bugliosi's book made things much clearer and I think it is a disgrace that most people who have ever heard of Clay Shaw will think that he was a conspirator in the death of JFK.

JFK Assassination A Homosexual Thrill Killing?

"[Journalist James] Phelan had written a favorable article about Jim Garrison in the Saturday Evening Post, and thus Garrison was willing to give Phelan an "exclusive" story, outlining the DA's "findings" about the assassination. Garrison arranged to meet Phelan in Las Vegas, and tell him about his case against Clay Shaw." (source)

In an effort to get Garrison's story into focus, I asked him the motive of the Kennedy conspirators. He told me that the murder at Dallas had been a homosexual plot.

"They had the same motive as Loeb and Leopold, when they murdered Bobbie Franks in Chicago back in the twenties," Garrison said. "It was a homosexual thrill-killing, plus the excitement of getting away with a perfect crime. John Kennedy was everything that Dave Ferrie was not — a successful, handsome, popular, wealthy, virile man. You can just picture the charge Ferrie got out of plotting his death."

I asked how he had learned that the murder was a homosexual plot.

"Look at the people involved," Garrison said. "Dave Ferrie, homosexual. Clay Shaw, homosexual. Jack Ruby, homosexual."

"Ruby was a homosexual?"

"Sure, we dug that out," Garrison said. "His homosexual nickname was Pinkie. That's three. Then there was Lee Harvey Oswald."

But Oswald was married and had two children, I pointed out.

"A switch-hitter who couldn't satisfy his wife," Garrison said. "That's all in the Warren Report." He named two more "key figures" whom he labeled homosexual.

"That's six homosexuals in the plot," Garrison said. "One or maybe two, okay. But all six homosexual? How far can you stretch the arm of coincidence?"

I told him that was an intriguing theory, but it wasn't evidence he could present to a court.

James Phelan, Scandals, Scamps, and Scoundrels, pp. 150-151

 

[Robert Prey]

You have so far presented evidence of nothing. You have also not answered my question about the misidentification of the gun found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.



When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

So the conspirators tried to frame Oswald by planting the wrong rife in the TSBD?

Oh, there was indeed an M/C rifle discovered in the TSBD. But not on the 6th floor, but on a lower floor, the 4th or 5th floor, which would introduce a 2nd possible weapon, and possibly a 2nd shooter. This whole business of the positive ID of an M/C rifle in view of 3 detectives who were able to examine it closely and read what was or was not printed on the rifle and swearing it to be a Mauser 7.65 make this crucial piece of evidence at the least very fishy. Just like all the rest of the so called "evidence." I still await one more serious person to meet the challenge of "best evidence." If the falsely ID'd rifle is all you guys got, maybe you should all just go home.

 

[I Ratant]

Reading your crap reminds me of the Ron White show, "You can't fix stupid".
You birthers, truthers, JFK twinkies... are invincibly ignorant, and can't be cured.

 

[Robert Prey]

Reading your crap reminds me of the Ron White show, "You can't fix stupid".
You birthers, truthers, JFK twinkies... are invincibly ignorant, and can't be cured.[/QUOTE

So that's all you got, eh?

 

[Walter Ego]

Oh, there was indeed an M/C rifle discovered in the TSBD. But not on the 6th floor, but on a lower floor, the 4th or 5th floor, which would introduce a 2nd possible weapon, and possibly a 2nd shooter. This whole business of the positive ID of an M/C rifle in view of 3 detectives who were able to examine it closely and read what was or was not printed on the rifle and swearing it to be a Mauser 7.65 make this crucial piece of evidence at the least very fishy. Just like all the rest of the so called "evidence."

Do you have a source for your claim that Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was not found on the 6th floor of the TSBD? Keep in mind you are posting on a skeptical forum and we don't accept mere assertion as fact. You have not so far provided a single citation for any thing you have quoted or asserted (as in the case above).

You know of course that Tom Alyea filmed the discovery of Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano (with Oswald's palm and fingerprints on it, btw) on the 6th floor, not the 4th or 5th floor as you assert.

I still await one more serious person to meet the challenge of "best evidence." If the falsely ID'd rifle is all you guys got, maybe you should all just go home.

Excuse me but it was you brought up the debunked canard of the falsely ID'd rifle, not anyone else, and so far you haven't proven anything about why the false ID is important. And, as stated previously by more than one person, your "challenge" is BS and we are not playing your little game.

And it is you who came here to show up the debunkers, not the other way around. You have been posting for less than two months and most of us have been here for years. It's time to put up or shut up and if you can't it is you who should "go home," not anyone else.

My sincere advise is for you to declare victory and then make a face-saving retreat. You have so far proven nothing and convinced nobody.

 

[Robert Prey]

When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

So the conspirators tried to frame Oswald by planting the wrong rife in the TSBD?

So, Oswald, wanting to be a big man, Known throughout history for shooting the President and all, wanted to make sure they could arrest him so he could get "credit." So, instead of simply buying rifle over the counter, he mail ordered one so they could trace it to his fake ID of Hidel. Why the fake ID? Why so it would look like he really wanted to hide his real ID, eh? And so when off he goes to shoot the President, he makes sure he has the fake ID on him, so that there was no question that he was indeed the big man, who bought the rifle, with a fake ID. So, he succeeded in all this, but then when arrested, inexplicably claimed he didn't shoot anybody. Made perfect sense to the Warren Commission. And apparently to all you guys as well.

 

[Walter Ego]

Reading your crap reminds me of the Ron White show, "You can't fix stupid".
You birthers, truthers, JFK twinkies... are invincibly ignorant, and can't be cured.

So that's all you got, eh?

We still are waiting to see what you've "got." (Properly sourced, please.)

Believe or not, there are people here, myself included, who could be convinced that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK if you could come up with some... you know like... evidence.

 

[kookbreaker]

Oh, there was indeed an M/C rifle discovered in the TSBD. But not on the 6th floor, but on a lower floor, the 4th or 5th floor,

As has been pointed out, there is film of the rifle being found.

which would introduce a 2nd possible weapon, and possibly a 2nd shooter.

Except for the complete lack of a 2nd weapon, 2nd set of brass, or the 'minor' detail that Bonnie Ray Williams and Harold Norman were actually on the 5th floor when the shots were fired.

This whole business of the positive ID of an M/C rifle in view of 3 detectives who were able to examine it closely and read what was or was not printed on the rifle and swearing it to be a Mauser 7.65 make this crucial piece of evidence at the least very fishy.

All 3 detectives swore to this being a Mauser? I see one sworn deposition from a detective who admits he was wrong, was not an expert in weapon identification. Not impressive

Just like all the rest of the so called "evidence." I still await one more serious person to meet the challenge of "best evidence."

Its already been done. Your lame dodging and evading is not convincing.

If the falsely ID'd rifle is all you guys got, maybe you should all just go home.

Quit the chest-beating. All your argument boils down to is: "A detective who was not an expert in firearms misidentifies a rifle with another model that was very similar in appearance? I DON'T THINK SO". That is not very impressive evidence.

 

[bynmdsue]

So, Oswald, wanting to be a big man, Known throughout history for shooting the President and all, wanted to make sure they could arrest him so he could get "credit." So, instead of simply buying rifle over the counter, he mail ordered one so they could trace it to his fake ID of Hidel. Why the fake ID? Why so it would look like he really wanted to hide his real ID, eh? And so when off he goes to shoot the President, he makes sure he has the fake ID on him, so that there was no question that he was indeed the big man, who bought the rifle, with a fake ID. So, he succeeded in all this, but then when arrested, inexplicably claimed he didn't shoot anybody. Made perfect sense to the Warren Commission. And apparently to all you guys as well.

Oswald had the President's murder planned in March of '63?

 

[kookbreaker]

So, Oswald, wanting to be a big man, Known throughout history for shooting the President and all, wanted to make sure they could arrest him so he could get "credit." So, instead of simply buying rifle over the counter, he mail ordered one so they could trace it to his fake ID of Hidel. Why the fake ID? Why so it would look like he really wanted to hide his real ID, eh? And so when off he goes to shoot the President, he makes sure he has the fake ID on him, so that there was no question that he was indeed the big man, who bought the rifle, with a fake ID. So, he succeeded in all this, but then when arrested, inexplicably claimed he didn't shoot anybody. Made perfect sense to the Warren Commission. And apparently to all you guys as well.

You seem to be mistaking Oswald's desires (which are apparent when you read about his life) with glory-hounding and credit seeking. Oswald viewed himself as some kind of revolutionary, and to him that meant arming himself and having a fake ID to 'game' the system as it was. It makes perfect sense if you look at Oswald's antics and actions well prior to the day of the assassination.

BTW, this is not evidence, this is your own incredulity. You might as well be saying "fire weakening steel? I DON'T THINK SO!"

 

[Robert Prey]

Do you have a source for your claim that Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was not found on the 6th floor of the TSBD? Keep in mind you are posting on a skeptical forum and we don't accept mere assertion as fact. You have not so far provided a single citation for any thing you have claimed.

You know of course that Tom Alyea filmed the discovery of Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano (with Oswald's palm and fingerprints on it, btw) on the 6th floor, not the 4th or 5th floor as you assert.




Excuse me but it was you brought up the debunked canard of the falsely ID'd rifle, not anyone else, and so far you haven't proven anything about why the false ID is important. And, as stated previously by more than one person, your "challenge" is BS and we are not playing your little game.

And it is you who came here to show up the debunkers, not the other way around. You have been posting for less than two months and most of us have been here for years. It's time to put up or shut up and if you can't it is you who should "go home," not anyone else.

My sincere advise is for you to declare victory and then make a face-saving retreat. You have so far proven nothing and convinced nobody.

OMG, so much brainwash; So little time. Ray and Mary LaFontaine, authors of 'Oswald Talked" cited a phone conversation with agent Frank Ellsworth who confirmed the finding of the MC rifle on the 4th or 5th floor.
"I remember we talked about it, and figured that he must have run out for the stairwell and dropped it as he was running downstairs." -- P.374

Nor was there any readable palm print or finger print on the rifle. Nor was there any record of the person who picked up the rifle at the Post Office

As for any convincing, I'm reminded of the saying, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

 

[Robert Prey]

As has been pointed out, there is film of the rifle being found.



Except for the complete lack of a 2nd weapon, 2nd set of brass, or the 'minor' detail that Bonnie Ray Williams and Harold Norman were actually on the 5th floor when the shots were fired.



All 3 detectives swore to this being a Mauser? I see one sworn deposition from a detective who admits he was wrong, was not an expert in weapon identification. Not impressive



Its already been done. Your lame dodging and evading is not convincing.



Quit the chest-beating. All your argument boils down to is: "A detective who was not an expert in firearms misidentifies a rifle with another model that was very similar in appearance? I DON'T THINK SO". That is not very impressive evidence.

... and when an examination of the rifle that clearly had the imprint: Made Italy, Cal 6.5, he concluded it must have been a German Mauser, 7.65, eh?

 

[Robert Prey]

Oswald had the President's murder planned in March of '63?

Who says Oswald murdered the President? Not me. I'm trying to get all you guys to give up some evidence that he even fired a shot.

 

[BStrong]

Oh, there was indeed an M/C rifle discovered in the TSBD. But not on the 6th floor, but on a lower floor, the 4th or 5th floor, which would introduce a 2nd possible weapon, and possibly a 2nd shooter. This whole business of the positive ID of an M/C rifle in view of 3 detectives who were able to examine it closely and read what was or was not printed on the rifle and swearing it to be a Mauser 7.65 make this crucial piece of evidence at the least very fishy. Just like all the rest of the so called "evidence." I still await one more serious person to meet the challenge of "best evidence." If the falsely ID'd rifle is all you guys got, maybe you should all just go home.

Sounds like the old Robert Murrow story.

Being Sicilian, and having my family landing in New Orleans I have my own opinions on the subject, but the Warren report still stands.

 

[Robert Prey]

All 3 detectives swore to this being a Mauser? I see one sworn deposition from a detective who admits he was wrong, was not an expert in weapon identification. Not impressive.

Weitzman never admitted he was wrong. Moreover the Warren Commission refused to show him the rifle and ask him if that was the weapon he found. But Det. Boone was shown the rifle and refused to confirm it was the same weapon. And Det. Roger Craig, to his dying day insisted it was a Mauser 7.65 and said he read the words from right off the rifle. Craig was soon fired from the DPd, had several attempts on his life, and eventually, allegedly, committed "suicide."

 

[Robert Prey]

We still are waiting to see what you've "got." (Properly sourced, please.)

Believe or not, there are people here, myself included, who could be convinced that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK i you could come up with some... you know like... evidence.[/QUOTE

It's coming, oh ye of little faith.

 

[Walter Ego]

So, Oswald, wanting to be a big man, Known throughout history for shooting the President and all, wanted to make sure they could arrest him so he could get "credit." So, instead of simply buying rifle over the counter, he mail ordered one so they could trace it to his fake ID of Hidel. Why the fake ID? Why so it would look like he really wanted to hide his real ID, eh? And so when off he goes to shoot the President, he makes sure he has the fake ID on him, so that there was no question that he was indeed the big man, who bought the rifle, with a fake ID. So, he succeeded in all this, but then when arrested, inexplicably claimed he didn't shoot anybody. Made perfect sense to the Warren Commission. And apparently to all you guys as well.

I will treat this sneering response with more respect that it deserves.

Oswald not only used the A.J. Hidell (not "Hidel") alias to order the Mannlicher-Carcano and the handgun, he used it in New Orleans to make it look like there was more than one member of his unofficial Fair Play for Cuba Committee by having Marina sign a membership card in the name of Hidell as chapter president and as the alternate name on the New Orleans post office box he rented in June 1963.

Oswald did have an inflated sense of his own importance but he obviously didn't want to be arrested otherwise why did he haul ass from the crime scene and kill Officer Tibbit? Oswald not only denied shooting anyone when questioned by the DPD, he told consistently provable lies when the questions turned to his ownership of the assassination rifle.

(And, interestingly, when asked to give any residential addresses he may have had in Dallas, he gave every address but he significantly left out 214 W. Neely St. where the backyard photos were taken of him with the rifle and the handgun that killed Tibbit.)

Oswald's fleeing Dealey Plaza, killing Tibbit, lying about his false ID and ownership of the Mannlicher-Carcano and concealing the fact of his residence at 214 W. Neely from the police are in fact evidence of what in legal terms is called "consciousness of guilt." So Oswald's denial of the Hidell alias, far from proving his innocence, was another indication of his guilt.

Do you have have documented facts that Oswald was not the assassin? We are still waiting to hear them.