JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[I Ratant]

This is not "just one" piece of evidence, and thus not a valid response to RP´s challenge.

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RP's "challenge" is ****.

 

[Walter Ego]

Credit given for at least trying. Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser.

So you see, there is a slight problem of reasonable doubt with that one single piece of evidence but I give you credit for trying.

Actually, it was one single police officer, Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman, who admitted he was not a firearms expert, who thought Oswald's rife found on the 6th floor of the TSBD reassembled a Mauser (which it did, btw). Weitzman later explained his mistake.You're implying that every cop on the scene "swore" it was a Mauser.

How do we know it was a Mannlicher-Carcano that was found?

The recovery of the rifle was filmed by Tom Alyea of WFAA-TV, and his footage shows the rifle to be a Mannlicher-Carcano. Here is one frame from his footage, and here is another. In fact, a Mannlisher-Carcano could easily be mistaken for a Mauser.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/firearms.htm

Is this long debunked old canard the best you can do or are you going to suggest that Alyea was, like the Dallas PD, "in on it" too?

 

[Walter Ego]

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RP's "challenge" is ****.

Exactly, which is why I posted more that one piece of evidence for Oswald's guilt. The "challenge" is typical of conspiracy kooks. Check out this post from alt.conspiracy.jfk.

On Oct 26, 7:25 am, "Richard Weed" <wee...@folk.net> wrote:


> Why are you still flogging the JFK case? Aren't JFK CTs kind of passé? Why
> not move on to 9/11 conspiracy theories? That's what the kids are into
> nowadays.


good of you to consider the CT question, we've got 45 specific
questions hereabouts considering JFK's assassination. Answer those
honestly then feel free to consider the assassination "passe." Carry
on!

At least RP only asked for one piece of evidence.

 

[Robert Prey]

Actually, it was one single police officer, Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman, who admitted he was not a firearms expert, who thought Oswald's rife found on the 6th floor of the TSBD reassembled a Mauser (which it did, btw). Weitzman later explained his mistake.You're implying that every cop on the scene "swore" it was a Mauser.

How do we know it was a Mannlicher-Carcano that was found?




[qimg]http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/day1.jpg[/qimg]

Is this long debunked old canard the best you can do or are you going to suggest that Alyea was, like the Dallas PD, "in on it" too?

MacAdams statement that the two rifles are similar, and could the one be mistaken for the other undercuts the the certitude of the rifle ID as filmed, particularly since the Mauser was specifically identified in Weitzman's sworn statement as a German Mauser 7.65. How the former owner of a sporting goods store could make that specific claim when the Carcano presented as the rifle before the Warren Commission was clearly marked "Made Italy, 6.5" strains credulity.

"...We were in the northwest corner of the sixth floor when Deputy Boone
and myself spotted the rifle about the same time. This rifle was a 7.65
Mauser bolt action equipped with a 4/18 scope, a thick leather
brownish-black sling on it The rifle was between some boxes near the
stairway. The time the rifle was found was 1:22 pm...... Seymour
Weitzman Subscribed and sworn to before me this 23 day of November A.D.
1963 Mary Rattan MARY RATTAN Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas. "

"Moreover, Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was also there and later recalled the word "Mauser" inscribed in the metal of the gun. And Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone executed a sworn affidavit in which he described the rifle as a Mauser. As late as midnight of November 22, Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade told the media that the weapon found was a Mauser."

Whether this sworn statement was simply a mistake or whether it was an ID of a second discovered rifle, provides reasonable doubt nor does the rifle ID negate the possibility that the rifle was in fact a plant to frame the conspirators' designated patsy.

 

[Robert Prey]

Oswald's Ghost Speaks

"I shot JFK. I acted alone."

Here is the photo of the "Ghost" of Lee Harvey Oswald discovered in neglected Dallas PD evidence locker in 1995.

Oswald's Ghost.

The ghost speaks:

"This ghosted cut out of me in the Neely Backyard is prima facia evidence of an interim step to create a photographic forgery in order to convict me in the Court of Public Opinion."

 

[I Ratant]

The "ghost" image is known as to source and purpose..

 

[kookbreaker]

Whether this sworn statement was simply a mistake or whether it was an ID of a second discovered rifle, provides reasonable doubt nor does the rifle ID negate the possibility that the rifle was in fact a plant to frame the conspirators' designated patsy.

The lack of physical evidence (i.e complete lack of a Mauser rifle, the complete lack of Mauser 7.65mm brass, etc.) kinda does just that. So this basically becomes the classic 'milk every misstatement by first responders' to the nth degree' of conspiracy nuttery.

 

[Walter Ego]

Whether this sworn statement was simply a mistake or whether it was an ID of a second discovered rifle, provides reasonable doubt nor does the rifle ID negate the possibility that the rifle was in fact a plant to frame the conspirators' designated patsy.

So the conspirators planted a rifle that was not Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano and which could not be traced back to Oswald in order to frame him?

Do you realize that makes no sense at all?

 

[Foolmewunz]

Here is the photo of the "Ghost" of Lee Harvey Oswald discovered in neglected Dallas PD evidence locker in 1995.

Oswald's Ghost.

The ghost speaks:

"This ghosted cut out of me in the Neely Backyard is prima facia evidence of an interim step to create a photographic forgery in order to convict me in the Court of Public Opinion."

Buzzzzzz! And yer outta here!

That's it? That's the single piece of evidence that's going to remove the scales from our eyes? And it took all of what? Three minutes for someone to find the actual story behind the photo? (I went a-googling but by the time I got back, I Ratant had already found it.)

Well, thanks for playing, Robert. Sorry you didn't even make it through the Warm-Up Round, but so you don't go away empty handed, we have some lovely parting gifts for you. Tell 'im about 'em, Don Pardo!

"Well thanks, Wink. Robert, will get a year's supply of Turtle Wax, for the auto owner who always wanted their car to look like a turtle, a gift certificate from Spiegel, and our home edition of "Trolling for Dollars".

 

[angrysoba]

Here is the photo of the "Ghost" of Lee Harvey Oswald discovered in neglected Dallas PD evidence locker in 1995.

Oswald's Ghost.

The ghost speaks:

"This ghosted cut out of me in the Neely Backyard is prima facia evidence of an interim step to create a photographic forgery in order to convict me in the Court of Public Opinion."

I've not seen this before and OMG it makes me think that....

The photograph was quite obviously nothing like the "backyard photos" and clearly shows (or rather, if you had a clearer picture it would clearly show...) that they are taken at different times of the year or at a time completely removed from the Oswald picture.

The shadows are different and there seems to be much less foliage in the "ghost photograph". Presumably the trees were also photoshopped when Oswald was framed.

 

[Foolmewunz]

And... I'll have you note the white pickets in the fence or gate behind LHO. Now look at the picture of the cop and count those pickets and notice that the perspective has him standing a little farther away from the camera than the supposed Lee Harvey Oswald. In short, the cop in that picture was obviously told to move..... Back and to the left!

Cinches it for me!

 

[Robert Prey]

Buzzzzzz! And yer outta here!

That's it? That's the single piece of evidence that's going to remove the scales from our eyes? And it took all of what? Three minutes for someone to find the actual story behind the photo? (I went a-googling but by the time I got back, I Ratant had already found it.)

Well, thanks for playing, Robert. Sorry you didn't even make it through the Warm-Up Round, but so you don't go away empty handed, we have some lovely parting gifts for you. Tell 'im about 'em, Don Pardo!

"Well thanks, Wink. Robert, will get a year's supply of Turtle Wax, for the auto owner who always wanted their car to look like a turtle, a gift certificate from Spiegel, and our home edition of "Trolling for Dollars".

Oh, no. The real evidence is yet to come. This is only positive evidence of an attempt to manufacture evidence.

 

[Sceptic-PK]

JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

I think that's a fundamental aspect of all conspiracy theories, at least now that the internet will preserve our stupidity forever. The fact that these ideas can never be proven are what keep them around. They might fluctuate in popularity, but they never really go away. Even the Illuminati are still with us, haha.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Oh it is ervidence of manufactures evidence?

Or is it evidence that some conspiracy theorists have to manufacture the possibility of a cover up from the imperfections of data in the real world? Neither way is it possitive evidence as claimed.

 

[kookbreaker]

Oh, no. The real evidence is yet to come. This is only positive evidence of an attempt to manufacture evidence.

When you get around to presenting any real evidence, please let us know. So far all you've brought to the table has fallen flat on its face.

 

[Walter Ego]

Oh, no. The real evidence is yet to come. This is only positive evidence of an attempt to manufacture evidence.

You have so far presented evidence of nothing. You have also not answered my question about the misidentification of the gun found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

So the conspirators planted a rifle that was not Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano and which could not be traced back to Oswald in order to frame him?

When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

So the conspirators tried to frame Oswald by planting the wrong rife in the TSBD?

 

[angrysoba]

I've read bits of Bugliosi's book and was surprised by the evidence against Jim Garrison.

I had seen Oliver Stone's movie before and was mostly confused by it at a time when I was probably of the age to be most convinced by it.

I just wondered what this whole homosexual-gand thing meant. It seemed to trade on innuendo.

Bugliosi's book made things much clearer and I think it is a disgrace that most people who have ever heard of Clay Shaw will think that he was a conspirator in the death of JFK.

 

[Mudcat]

First of all, the absence of evidence is not evidence.

Reality objects to this statement. Despite what Religionists, Cryptionists, Conspirationists (that's you, by the way) and others like to say it's actually the other way around.

The absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. If something doesn't exist or didn't happen than you can't find evidence that it doesn't exist or didn't happen, therefore the only conclusion is that most likely it doesn't exist or didn't happen.

Nonetheless, there is a mountain of evidence that points to a conspiracy.

Wonderful, maybe you would like to share a single piece of the evidence you consider most convincing? If there's really a mountain of it than this isn't asking much.

But hundreds of books have been written on the subject and this is only a small space.

Hundreds of books have been written on the subject of middle-earth and the characters associated with it, doesn't make it real.

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

This summary, which should not be considered complete or exhaustive, is adapted from David Von Pein's summary which can be read here. Vincent Bugliosi's summary of Oswald's Guilt was discussed on JREF here.

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Lee Harvey Oswald owned the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository on Friday afternoon, November 22, 1963.

Oswald owned the handgun that was shown to have been used in the murder of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit.

When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

Marina Oswald admits to having taken pictures of Lee with the rifle and handgun, which (all by itself) validates the "Backyard Photographs". But even if conspiracists wish to think that Marina is a liar, there's the fact that the HSCA [House Select Committee on Assassinations] panel of photo experts authenticated the backyard pictures.

Oswald's co-worker Buell Wesley Frazier who gave Oswald a ride to work on the morning of November 22nd, 1963, observed Oswald take a package into the Book Depository Building.

Oswald's claim of "curtain rods" within the package cannot be supported at all. His room needed no curtains, nor rods, and no such rods were ever found in the TSBD or at his residence at 1026 N. Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff.

Oswald was seen working on the Depository's sixth floor that morning.

Oswald's palmprint is found on his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after the assassination.

No trace of any bullets/bullet fragments/bullet shells OTHER THAN THOSE COMING FROM OSWALD'S 6.5-MILLIMETER MANNLICHER-CARCANO RIFLE were discovered anywhere in Dealey Plaza, the limousine, the TSBD, Parkland Hospital, or in the victims.

Oswald, in flight from the TSBD, shoots and kills Dallas patrolman J.D. Tippit on 10th Street in the Dallas suburb of Oak Cliff. Multiple witnesses confirm it was Oswald who shot Officer Tippit.

Oswald, just days after acquiring his Carcano weapon, attempts to murder retired General Edwin Walker in Dallas, on April 10, 1963. Marina Oswald herself testifies that "Lee told me...he just shot Walker".

It was also proven that Oswald could have indeed travelled, in 90 seconds or less, the distance across the sixth floor of the TSBD and descended the four flights of stairs in time to have been seen by policeman Marrion L. Baker on the building's second floor.

Game, set, match. thanks....

 

[I Ratant]

I've not seen this before and OMG it makes me think that....

The photograph was quite obviously nothing like the "backyard photos" and clearly shows (or rather, if you had a clearer picture it would clearly show...) that they are taken at different times of the year or at a time completely removed from the Oswald picture.

The shadows are different and there seems to be much less foliage in the "ghost photograph". Presumably the trees were also photoshopped when Oswald was framed.

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Call the Dallas Police Department. I did.
They have an extensive archive on the event...
And it's all available, just cross their palms with silver.... the money, not the horse.
The photo of Detective Brown is just one of a series they took that day, in December following the assassination.
I have several more, but they're buried too deeply in the junk room to go look for.