JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[tsig]

I'll get to that, but I'd first like to prove that no one on this board can successfully answer my challenge. So far, three replies, but no cigar.

So you set up the challenge and get to decide what answers are right? No wonder you claim no one has met it.

 

[Robert Prey]

So you set up the challenge and get to decide what answers are right? No wonder you claim no one has met it.

Oh, but you get to decide as well. The point is, for all the know-it-all Lone Nutter advocates of this board, no one has even attempted to offer up one single piece of evidence that LHO even fired a shot. Looks to me like a bunch of very un-critical "critical thinkers."

 

[Robert Prey]

.
The Warren Commission Report - ALL of it !
And Posner's examination of the event.
The hundreds of fairy tales spewed out of the conspiracy sewer are just garbage. That which isn't bat-crap crazy... Weisberg, Livingstone... is only intended to make your money the CTwinky's money. Groden, Lane, Lifton..
Trask's "Pictures of the Pain" is a good source also.

So, it appears neither can you submit one single piece of evidence.
That makes four (Fail).

 

[Border Reiver]

Never seen Oswald's ghost, no. What does Oswald's ghost say?

"I shot JFK. I acted alone."

 

[matt.tansy]

Looks to me like a bunch of very un-critical "critical thinkers."

If you can name the logical fallacy you just committed you might gain some credibility.

Remember, being a critical thinker requires admitting when you make a logical fallacy.

 

[Border Reiver]

No one enters a "single piece of evidence" for anything. You look at the totality of the evidence. Your challenge is unscientific, and without a good basis in logic.

 

[Robert Prey]

Oswald's rifle was stored in the Paine's garage before the assassination then was found in the TSBD.

Credit given for at least trying. Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser.

""The possibility of a rifle substitution was even admitted by Dallas police chief Jesse Curry. In 1976 in an interview with the Detroit News Curry agreed, ' It's more than possible' the rifle found in the depository could have been exchanged for the gun now in the national archieves. Curry said anyone wanting to substitute one suspected murder weapon for another 'could have gotten away with it at the time." Because no special precautions were taken to isolate the weapon as historic evidence."

From Crossfire by Jim Mars.

So you see, there is a slight problem of reasonable doubt with that one single piece of evidence but I give you credit for trying.

 

[Robert Prey]

No one enters a "single piece of evidence" for anything. You look at the totality of the evidence. Your challenge is unscientific, and without a good basis in logic.

The challenge is reasonable because there are thousands of single pieces of evidence and it is fair to ask, OK, Let's just discuss one, or one at at time which is what any jury would do.

 

[timhau]

Credit given for at least trying. Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser.

Naturally, you have evidence that it was switched later, don't you?

Given that Dallas police detectives are infallible especially on a day when the POTUS is assassinated in their town, I have to question the competence of the conspiracy behind it all. They're nearly all-powerful but still amazingly sloppy. Kind of like the Bush administration -- they manage to pull off 9/11 almost perfectly, except that they leave traces that every YouTube researcher spots immediately.

 

[Tomtomkent]

So rather than describing why any of the sum total of evidence is (apparently) persuausive that LHO didn't act alone, or why any of the offered evidence is flawed (so that would be, for example, the Warren Commission, the rifle, the ballistics, etc) we are just offered a "not good enough" from the (subjective) opinion of one poster, with an illogical demand we base our own opinions on a single piece of evidence?

Ok, let's see if the same rules work in reverse: Dupply one single piece of evidence beyond doubt that LHO was NOT acting alone. Just one.

 

[Walter Ego]

And you can't even be bothered to show the mountaintop?

Mr. Prey has left and gone away. I wonder if he'll come back to see if anyone has accepted his "challenge" to his satisfaction.

 

[I Ratant]

Naturally, you have evidence that it was switched later, don't you?

Given that Dallas police detectives are infallible especially on a day when the POTUS is assassinated in their town, I have to question the competence of the conspiracy behind it all. They're nearly all-powerful but still amazingly sloppy. Kind of like the Bush administration -- they manage to pull off 9/11 almost perfectly, except that they leave traces that every YouTube researcher spots immediately.

.
Re the DPD ID of the rifle... as a Mannlicher-Carcano was relatively unknown, and the 1897 Mauser does resemble it, a casual glance might confuse the two.
The rifle carried from the TSBD was the Carcano. The empty clip is protruding from the bottom of the magazine well.
The Mauser is loaded with a stripper clip. The bullets are pressed into the top of the magazine from the clip. Closing the bolt pushes the clip off the action. There is no opening in the bottom of the Mauser magazine, as there is in the Carcano.
The Carcano clip is intended to fall out or be pushed out of the magazine when empty, and when a new clip is inserted. Due to the roughness of the walls in the magazine well, the clip will tend to stay in place until pushed out.

 

[Walter Ego]

A Summary of Oswald's Guilt

This summary, which should not be considered complete or exhaustive, is adapted from David Von Pein's summary which can be read here. Vincent Bugliosi's summary of Oswald's Guilt was discussed on JREF here.

-------

Lee Harvey Oswald owned the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository on Friday afternoon, November 22, 1963.

Oswald owned the handgun that was shown to have been used in the murder of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit.

When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

Marina Oswald admits to having taken pictures of Lee with the rifle and handgun, which (all by itself) validates the "Backyard Photographs". But even if conspiracists wish to think that Marina is a liar, there's the fact that the HSCA [House Select Committee on Assassinations] panel of photo experts authenticated the backyard pictures.

Oswald's co-worker Buell Wesley Frazier who gave Oswald a ride to work on the morning of November 22nd, 1963, observed Oswald take a package into the Book Depository Building.

Oswald's claim of "curtain rods" within the package cannot be supported at all. His room needed no curtains, nor rods, and no such rods were ever found in the TSBD or at his residence at 1026 N. Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff.

Oswald was seen working on the Depository's sixth floor that morning.

Oswald's palmprint is found on his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after the assassination.

No trace of any bullets/bullet fragments/bullet shells OTHER THAN THOSE COMING FROM OSWALD'S 6.5-MILLIMETER MANNLICHER-CARCANO RIFLE were discovered anywhere in Dealey Plaza, the limousine, the TSBD, Parkland Hospital, or in the victims.

Oswald, in flight from the TSBD, shoots and kills Dallas patrolman J.D. Tippit on 10th Street in the Dallas suburb of Oak Cliff. Multiple witnesses confirm it was Oswald who shot Officer Tippit.

Oswald, just days after acquiring his Carcano weapon, attempts to murder retired General Edwin Walker in Dallas, on April 10, 1963. Marina Oswald herself testifies that "Lee told me...he just shot Walker".

It was also proven that Oswald could have indeed travelled, in 90 seconds or less, the distance across the sixth floor of the TSBD and descended the four flights of stairs in time to have been seen by policeman Marrion L. Baker on the building's second floor.

 

[Walter Ego]

Addendum:

In this posting on alt.conspircy.jfk Von Pein asserts that the following two items alone prove Oswald's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

1.) Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle was positively the weapon that was used
to assassinate President Kennedy and wound Texas Governor John
Connally. (With said weapon being found inside the building where
Oswald was definitely located at 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963, when
both of these men were wounded by rifle fire.)


2.) Oswald was seen carrying a bulky paper package into his place of
employment at the Texas School Book Depository Building on the morning
of 11/22/63, and Oswald (beyond a reasonable doubt) lied about the
contents of this package to a co-worker.

 

[Noztradamus]

Oswald's rifle was stored in the Paine's garage before the assassination then was found in the TSBD.

So... You are claiming the Paines were part of the conspiracy?

 

[matt.tansy]

Credit given for at least trying. Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser.

"Swore"? No, some said it looked like a Mauser. The Mauser factoid has gone beyond ridiculous. You know very well that a Mauser looks almost identical to a Mannlicher-Carcano.

""The possibility of a rifle substitution was even admitted by Dallas police chief Jesse Curry. In 1976 in an interview with the Detroit News Curry agreed, ' It's more than possible' the rifle found in the depository could have been exchanged for the gun now in the national archieves. Curry said anyone wanting to substitute one suspected murder weapon for another 'could have gotten away with it at the time." Because no special precautions were taken to isolate the weapon as historic evidence."

From Crossfire by Jim Mars.

So you see, there is a slight problem of reasonable doubt with that one single piece of evidence but I give you credit for trying.

Speculation does not equal evidence. You can speculate all day how a rifle could be switched but you still have to provide evidence it was switched.

But seriously, Jim Marrs? He is about as crazy as you can get without being institutionalized. Here he is being "interviewed" for the Camelot Project. I put "interviewed" in quotes because basically they sat him down in front of a camera and let him ramble for 75 minutes. I wouldn't subject my worst enemy to all 75 minutes but fortunately he is so crazy you can just click on a random spot and you'll being facepalming yourself within a minute.

If he's the best you got...

 

[I Ratant]

"Swore"? No, some said it looked like a Mauser. The Mauser factoid has gone beyond ridiculous. You know very well that a Mauser looks almost identical to a Mannlicher-Carcano.
...

.
Presuming what the Twinkie knows well... ?
He's just another script follower.

 

[Ranb]

Now how do you know Oswald's rifle was found int the TBSD? His rifle was allegedly a Mannlicher-Carcano, but the detectives on the scene swore it was a Mauser.

Swore as in "sworn statement"? Evidence to support this claim?

Ranb

 

[Noztradamus]

.
Re the DPD ID of the rifle... as a Mannlicher-Carcano was relatively unknown, and the 1897 Mauser does resemble it, a casual glance might confuse the two.
The rifle carried from the TSBD was the Carcano. The empty clip is protruding from the bottom of the magazine well.
The Mauser is loaded with a stripper clip. The bullets are pressed into the top of the magazine from the clip. Closing the bolt pushes the clip off the action. There is no opening in the bottom of the Mauser magazine, as there is in the Carcano.
The Carcano clip is intended to fall out or be pushed out of the magazine when empty, and when a new clip is inserted. Due to the roughness of the walls in the magazine well, the clip will tend to stay in place until pushed out.

The Mannlicher-Carcano (aka Mauser Paravincino) was designed by M. Carcano combining a modifed Mauser bolt with a Mannlicher magazine feed, so one really needs to see the magazine to note those details.

As found and not handled at the crime scene when those police officers noted "it looked like a Mauser" what they saw was http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/1995/oswaldriflesixthfloora.jpg

Yeah "as a Mannlicher-Carcano was relatively unknown, and the 1897 Mauser does resemble it, a casual glance might confuse the two."

 

[Chaos]

This summary, which should not be considered complete or exhaustive, is adapted from David Von Pein's summary which can be read here. Vincent Bugliosi's summary of Oswald's Guilt was discussed on JREF here.

-------

Lee Harvey Oswald owned the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository on Friday afternoon, November 22, 1963.

Oswald owned the handgun that was shown to have been used in the murder of Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippit.

When arrested Oswald had a fake draft card in the name of "A.J. Hidell" in his wallet. The order form from Klein's Sporting Goods to purchase the mail-order rifle was signed by one "A.J. Hidell" and was positively proven to have been in Oswald's handwriting. The mail to address on the order was Oswald's Dallas post-office box.

Marina Oswald admits to having taken pictures of Lee with the rifle and handgun, which (all by itself) validates the "Backyard Photographs". But even if conspiracists wish to think that Marina is a liar, there's the fact that the HSCA [House Select Committee on Assassinations] panel of photo experts authenticated the backyard pictures.

Oswald's co-worker Buell Wesley Frazier who gave Oswald a ride to work on the morning of November 22nd, 1963, observed Oswald take a package into the Book Depository Building.

Oswald's claim of "curtain rods" within the package cannot be supported at all. His room needed no curtains, nor rods, and no such rods were ever found in the TSBD or at his residence at 1026 N. Beckley Avenue in Oak Cliff.

Oswald was seen working on the Depository's sixth floor that morning.

Oswald's palmprint is found on his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle after the assassination.

No trace of any bullets/bullet fragments/bullet shells OTHER THAN THOSE COMING FROM OSWALD'S 6.5-MILLIMETER MANNLICHER-CARCANO RIFLE were discovered anywhere in Dealey Plaza, the limousine, the TSBD, Parkland Hospital, or in the victims.

Oswald, in flight from the TSBD, shoots and kills Dallas patrolman J.D. Tippit on 10th Street in the Dallas suburb of Oak Cliff. Multiple witnesses confirm it was Oswald who shot Officer Tippit.

Oswald, just days after acquiring his Carcano weapon, attempts to murder retired General Edwin Walker in Dallas, on April 10, 1963. Marina Oswald herself testifies that "Lee told me...he just shot Walker".

It was also proven that Oswald could have indeed travelled, in 90 seconds or less, the distance across the sixth floor of the TSBD and descended the four flights of stairs in time to have been seen by policeman Marrion L. Baker on the building's second floor.

This is not "just one" piece of evidence, and thus not a valid response to RP´s challenge.