Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[snook1]

The P** site started on a Crime Tourist site but the guy there became frustrated with the intensity of some of the posters. Frank's site was repeatedly attacked by pro-guilt (PG) commenters that would post huge pieces of literature to make the thread unreadable.

The West Seattle threesome of Tara, Peg, and Kathleen seem to have a visceral dislike for Amanda and anybody associated with her. They were the ones that went to the fundraiser at Salty's. K and her husband proudly were interviewed by a local TV station, stating that not all people in Seattle supported Amanda and that's why they were there. The women in particular seemed to be jealous of her youth and being attractive.

Obviously, the PG people are made up of many different types. Only two that I know of have tried to make a name for themselves, Peg and Pete. At the end of the appeal Peg started moving people over to her personal blog.

Some of them actually may wish to keep Meredith's memory alive but they seem to be in a small minority. Some have found a community - those that plead for a PM because they are having a bad day.

I've never followed a case before and was surprised that so many people are Crime Tourists. Many of the P**ers seem to be able to call up numerous cases at the drop of a hat.

There is also some aspect of frustrated writers. I think that explains their hatred of Preston and other successful writers. It also explains why they hate on Amanda's writing so much. I must say I'm not impressed at all by her writing.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the sites after its over.

And Harry Machine...who knows?

I know it's not necessarily the most liked topic related to the case, but yes, it will be intersting to see what happens after the SC ruling.

Peggy along with her co haters is out of control. Just this week I had a pleasure to witness her random outburst on Facebook. It was happening at one of the sites devoted to Meredith. She was frustrated with one member who openly supports AK and RS and at the same time, feel the need to light a candle for Meredith and respect her as a victim.

She, not only, requested this person to be banned(as this is her favourite online activity), but also harrased the other member to the point where someone told her to shut up already. She never came back and the person wasn't banned after all. Yet, she reported it on her .org, where the other jerks were delighted(beacuse everything what Peggy does is saint).

Also, Deanna Knox opened her photo albums on Facebook for everyone to see (if it was a good call - I don't know). What did they do at .org? They posted some of the photos and made some nasty (how usual for them) comments. They are, truly, one sick group of people. Their main interest is to spread hate against Amanda Knox (and a little bit against Raffaele Sollecito) and to hunt people down, whenever someone is a threat (like Bruce ).

Peggy's site has nothing to do with Meredith.

 

[Fine]

Hmmm. Apparently, we'll soon learn how certain forensic photographs in the Sarah Scazzi case found their way into a newspaper......but never found their way into the prosecutor's dossier. The newspaper, Corriere del Mezzogiorno, has expressed willingness to cooperate in the investigation. (See: HERE) Results of the investigation may indicate how certain crime scene photographs in the Meredith Ketcher case found their way into the media.

///

 

[Poppy1016]

RW,
As always, you raise great points. It's a shame that we may never know what really happened unless Rudy decides to come clean.
Rich

 

[Dougm]

Hi Grinder and everyone else
Barbie Nadeau says on page 36 of 'Angel Face' that Meredith Kercher, during the day of Nov. 1st, went downstairs and watered the marijuana plants that her new beau, Giacomo was growing. Afterwards she sent him a flirty text message saying how excited she was to see him when he got back.

Does anyone know if this is correct,
that Mez watered the plants during the daytime?

I assume that this is sometime during the same time frame when Amanda says that she saw Mez put clothes in the washers or take them out, in her email home. Or right afterwards when Raff and Amanda saw her leave, (wearing a pair of her English boyfriend Patrick Cronin's old bluejeans, that Raff thought was cute) to head over to Robyn's place.

The reason I ask, is I'm thinking about how and when that cats blood got on the lightswitch, and then on the tissue/TP/paper towels found outside. If Mez had watered the plants during the daytime, as B. Nadeau writes, then I would think that she would not have done so when she came home that night.

But might she have gone downstairs right after she got home to look in on the hurt cat? While still wearing her jacket on a chilly night.

Check this out:
So let's say that it is Hekuran Kokomani's car, I believe it's a black, Golf that was parked in the upper part of the gals cotage driveway later that night. Rudy, in his diary entry, says he saw a white car there and a drug dealer he recognised. Let's say that Rudy changes the details from it being a black car to white car, to try and throw off the investigation, since we know he isn't being completely truthful with every single detail of what happened that night.

Guede gains entrance to her apartment by throwing the rock and climbing in. Kokmani is on the lookout.* A bit thirsty from this climbing, he goes into the kitchen, and drinks orange juice from the container. Meredith comes home, see this car there. Rudy hears Meredith outsde, fumbling with her keys and then opening the door and then entering. He very quickly enters Filomena/Laura's bathroom, next to the kitchen. Locks the door, sittin' on the toilet. "Oh cheiit mon, someone's home" he thinks. Meredith comes into her bedroom, puts here bag down and that history book, Early Modern History, 1450-1789, that she borrowed. She thinks of the hurt cat that she is supposed to look after, and with her coat still on, goes downstairs to look in on it, also to seeing what's up with that car, is it still there, before she maybe calls the cops on it. When she entered Giacomo's place, she did not lock the downstairs door and while she is inside there Hekuran enters the guys apartmment too, startling Meredith, a small fight ensues, trashin' Stefano's room a bit, which had been neat when he left for the holiday weekend. In my opinion, this is the only room where it seems a fight could have occurred at the cottage, either upstairs or downstairs. There is simply no explanation that I've seen for Stefano's room, tidied up before he left, to be messy. Didn't Rudy Guede say that he heard a comotion downstairs at some point? Was Meredith brought back upstair a knifepoint by Kokomani and forced to enter her room for $$$?
Thoughts?

Hmmm,
RW


* - (Same as what possibly happened at the lawyers office break-in, Kokomani disabled the alarm, stood outside as a lookout, Rudy threw a rock, and climbed in, drank some refreshments, and stole some stuff, including a printer, which was probably afterwards placed into a car and then they split.)

I think you have an interesting theory there, except that it just seems so much less likely than the 'Rudy operated alone" theory. Do we have any evidence of a connection between Rudy and Kokmani other than Rudy's comment about seeing a drug dealer he knew near the cottage? Do we have any evidence that Kokmani had anything to do with Rudy's earlier break ins?

The scene downstairs is a bit odd, but could also be explained by the cat's injured ear, and that one of the boys just left his room a mess (not uncommon for guys in that age range to be sure).

It's interesting speculation, but I just find it requires too much "fill in the blanks" at the moment.

have a good one!

 

[Magister]

Hi Grinder and everyone else
Barbie Nadeau says on page 36 of 'Angel Face' that Meredith Kercher, during the day of Nov. 1st, went downstairs and watered the marijuana plants that her new beau, Giacomo was growing. Afterwards she sent him a flirty text message saying how excited she was to see him when he got back.

Does anyone know if this is correct,
that Mez watered the plants during the daytime?

I assume that this is sometime during the same time frame when Amanda says that she saw Mez put clothes in the washers or take them out, in her email home. Or right afterwards when Raff and Amanda saw her leave, (wearing a pair of her English boyfriend Patrick Cronin's old bluejeans, that Raff thought was cute) to head over to Robyn's place.

The reason I ask, is I'm thinking about how and when that cats blood got on the lightswitch, and then on the tissue/TP/paper towels found outside. If Mez had watered the plants during the daytime, as B. Nadeau writes, then I would think that she would not have done so when she came home that night.

But might she have gone downstairs right after she got home to look in on the hurt cat? While still wearing her jacket on a chilly night.

Check this out:
So let's say that it is Hekuran Kokomani's car, I believe it's a black, Golf that was parked in the upper part of the gals cotage driveway later that night. Rudy, in his diary entry, says he saw a white car there and a drug dealer he recognised. Let's say that Rudy changes the details from it being a black car to white car, to try and throw off the investigation, since we know he isn't being completely truthful with every single detail of what happened that night.

Guede gains entrance to her apartment by throwing the rock and climbing in. Kokmani is on the lookout.* A bit thirsty from this climbing, he goes into the kitchen, and drinks orange juice from the container. Meredith comes home, see this car there. Rudy hears Meredith outsde, fumbling with her keys and then opening the door and then entering. He very quickly enters Filomena/Laura's bathroom, next to the kitchen. Locks the door, sittin' on the toilet. "Oh cheiit mon, someone's home" he thinks. Meredith comes into her bedroom, puts here bag down and that history book, Early Modern History, 1450-1789, that she borrowed. She thinks of the hurt cat that she is supposed to look after, and with her coat still on, goes downstairs to look in on it, also to seeing what's up with that car, is it still there, before she maybe calls the cops on it. When she entered Giacomo's place, she did not lock the downstairs door and while she is inside there Hekuran enters the guys apartmment too, startling Meredith, a small fight ensues, trashin' Stefano's room a bit, which had been neat when he left for the holiday weekend. In my opinion, this is the only room where it seems a fight could have occurred at the cottage, either upstairs or downstairs. There is simply no explanation that I've seen for Stefano's room, tidied up before he left, to be messy. Didn't Rudy Guede say that he heard a comotion downstairs at some point? Was Meredith brought back upstair a knifepoint by Kokomani and forced to enter her room for $$$?
Thoughts?

Hmmm,
RW


* - (Same as what possibly happened at the lawyers office break-in, Kokomani disabled the alarm, stood outside as a lookout, Rudy threw a rock, and climbed in, drank some refreshments, and stole some stuff, including a printer, which was probably afterwards placed into a car and then they split.)

Interesting RW.
Just wondering if the white car said to belong to a drug dealer in Corso Garibaldi was Antonio Aviello's.
The fact that no known evidence was found by the keystone kops is no guide at all considering their appalling incompetence.

Stefano told the police that he left his room tidy.

 

[DarkStar2011]

It is possible (and therefore probable ) that Amanda wanted to be on her turf for once. I've certainly run into the "why can't we sleep at my place?" refrain with a new lover. She could have also said that it would be more convenient to be where her clothes were and she has indicated that she preferred her own shower.

...which would be a reasonable basis for her to tell him she wanted them to be at her apartment before the evening began. It's highly dubious that such a sentiment would suddenly come up sometime after 9:00 P.M. on a cold night.

Also, given the latter fact, it would seem more likely that, if they had wanted to go back to her place, they would have taken his Audi rather than walking. But there's no sign that vehicle was anywhere near the murder scene that night.

 

[DarkStar2011]

The women in particular seemed to be jealous of her youth and being attractive.

I've found that to be true of lots of female guilters I've run across -- all convinced that the only reason some males are pro-innocence is that they all secretly lust after Knox.

I'm thinking that the animosity, in these cases, may oftentimes be linked to the memory of (many?) times in their lives where they thought some other, more-attractive or more-flirtatious woman had gotten an edge over them in something. It's not unlike the white male who missed out on a job or promotion because his employer, concerned about equal-opportunity matters, gave the position to a woman or person of color (who, if they'd bothered to examine the situation, may have turned out to have just as strong qualifications as they themselves), but who nevertheless goes through the rest of life insisting angrily that "affirmative action" is merely a way for "unqualified" blacks or women to take away jobs from highly-qualified people like themselves.

 

[Grinder]

So let's say that it is Hekuran Kokomani's car, I believe it's a black, Golf that was parked in the upper part of the gals cotage driveway later that night. Rudy, in his diary entry, says he saw a white car there and a drug dealer he recognised. Let's say that Rudy changes the details from it being a black car to white car, to try and throw off the investigation, since we know he isn't being completely truthful with every single detail of what happened that night.
Hmmm,
RW

Thanks for responding RW. I find it very strange that people are so little interested in Kokomani. He says he was there. His car matches the one in the driveway. He later is arrested and convicted of drug dealing. He stated that he knew Rudy before that night. He left for Albania shortly after the murder. He lawyered up before talking to Mignini. IIRC he owned TWO cell phones.

LMT always talked about the Albanian drug mafia running the show in Perugia.

I don't know about your detailed theory - could be for sure, but other theories could also work.

If Rudy was involved with the Albanian gang that sure could keep him from talking. I believe LMT said something on Frank's blog about Rudy's lawyer being involved in some other case that caused her suspicion.

 

[Grinder]

...which would be a reasonable basis for her to tell him she wanted them to be at her apartment before the evening began. It's highly dubious that such a sentiment would suddenly come up sometime after 9:00 P.M. on a cold night.

Also, given the latter fact, it would seem more likely that, if they had wanted to go back to her place, they would have taken his Audi rather than walking. But there's no sign that vehicle was anywhere near the murder scene that night.

It wasn't THAT cold. It was about 55 Fahrenheit. My experience is that in most of the world a 5 to 10 walk would be the preferred mode over a drive.

Look I'm only saying that there could have been reasons other than premeditated murder to have go to the cottage. The view was way better. She liked the shower more. She wanted to change for the trip.

I'm not trying to say they were there, only that there are reasons they might have been there.

 

[Dougm]

I find it very strange that people are so little interested in Kokomani. He says he was there. His car matches the one in the driveway. He later is arrested and convicted of drug dealing. He stated that he knew Rudy before that night. He left for Albania shortly after the murder. He lawyered up before talking to Mignini. IIRC he owned TWO cell phones.

LMT always talked about the Albanian drug mafia running the show in Perugia.

I don't know about your detailed theory - could be for sure, but other theories could also work.

If Rudy was involved with the Albanian gang that sure could keep him from talking. I believe LMT said something on Frank's blog about Rudy's lawyer being involved in some other case that caused her suspicion.

I suspect that few are interested in Kokomani because of the bizarre story he told in court. Although your points above may have validity, his story about seeing Amanda, Raffaele, and Rudy and having to fend them off by throwing olives at them is too weird. To most, he is in the Curotolo category, or worse. Of course, maybe he shrewdly told such a bizarre story to throw the cops off the trail???

 

[Grinder]

I suspect that few are interested in Kokomani because of the bizarre story he told in court. Although your points above may have validity, his story about seeing Amanda, Raffaele, and Rudy and having to fend them off by throwing olives at them is too weird. To most, he is in the Curotolo category, or worse. Of course, maybe he shrewdly told such a bizarre story to throw the cops off the trail???

Thanks Doug. Yes, his testimony was bizarre, but I always thought that he feared they could trace his cellphone to the area or his car and he felt the need to "come forward" to explain what he feared they knew. Little did he know the abilities of the Keystone Kops of Perugia.

 

[Dan O.]

Also, given the latter fact, it would seem more likely that, if they had wanted to go back to her place, they would have taken his Audi rather than walking. But there's no sign that vehicle was anywhere near the murder scene that night.

Is there any information about where Raffaele parks his car in Perugia? There is limited parking in town so one option is to park in the covered parking garage only a few blocks away on the edge of town. I got the impression that Amanda and Raffaele were headed out of town that morning and were stopping at the cottage on the way to check it out. If Raffaele's car was in town, I would have expected him to bring the car to the cottage since that is in the direction they were going and then they wouldn't have to walk back to begin their trip.

 

[TruthCalls]

I'm still waiting for one person who think AK and RS are guilty to say they believe budget cuts are the reason Amanda and Raffaele's interrogations weren't recorded.

I believe I asked Machiavelli several pages back if he bought Mignini's explanation. It really is a simple yes or no question. I'm assuming most guilt lovers would only answer with a long winded and illogical pile of dog crap as they dressed up excuse after excuse.

It's just amazing though, that not one person will publicly state they agree with Mignini's explanation.

The unrecorded interrogation wasn't the only 'yeah, right' moment provided by Mignini and the police. How about the cops destroying three hard drives from the computers of Knox, Sollecito and Kercher and rendering a fourth somewhat useless by surfing the Internet with it. These computer drives may have proven Knox and Sollecito's whereabouts at the time of the murder as well as clarified the relationship between Knox and Kercher.

 

[RoseMontague]

Is there any information about where Raffaele parks his car in Perugia? There is limited parking in town so one option is to park in the covered parking garage only a few blocks away on the edge of town. I got the impression that Amanda and Raffaele were headed out of town that morning and were stopping at the cottage on the way to check it out. If Raffaele's car was in town, I would have expected him to bring the car to the cottage since that is in the direction they were going and then they wouldn't have to walk back to begin their trip.

ILE must have thought so. They ran forensic tests on 18 samples taken from Raffaele's Audi A3, compared to just 5 from Filomena's room. Go figure.

 

[Diocletus]

Hmmm. Apparently, we'll soon learn how certain forensic photographs in the Sarah Scazzi case found their way into a newspaper......but never found their way into the prosecutor's dossier. The newspaper, Corriere del Mezzogiorno, has expressed willingness to cooperate in the investigation. (See: HERE) Results of the investigation may indicate how certain crime scene photographs in the Meredith Ketcher case found their way into the media.

///

Interesting that that is deemed investigation-worthy in that case. I thought that Machiavelli said there could be no investigation unless there was a crime. So has somebody determined that it was or may have been criminal for crime-scene photographs to be released and/or withheld from the investigation file? That person should tip Mignini off to this "new" development in the law.

 

[RoseMontague]

Interesting that that is deemed investigation-worthy in that case. I thought that Machiavelli said there could be no investigation unless there was a crime. So has somebody determined that it was or may have been criminal for crime-scene photographs to be released and/or withheld from the investigation file? That person should tip Mignini off to this "new" development in the law.

I agree. This is worth following. Thank you, Fine.

 

[Dan O.]

Is it really the law in Italy that the prosecution gets to review all the evidence collected in a case and they alone decide what evidence goes into the case file and therefore what is usable in court by either side? This just seems so totally devoid of validity.

 

[Fine]

Is there any information about where Raffaele parks his car in Perugia? There is limited parking in town so one option is to park in the covered parking garage only a few blocks away on the edge of town. I got the impression that Amanda and Raffaele were headed out of town that morning and were stopping at the cottage on the way to check it out. If Raffaele's car was in town, I would have expected him to bring the car to the cottage since that is in the direction they were going and then they wouldn't have to walk back to begin their trip.

_________________

Dan,

Barbie wrote in Angel Face that Raffaele's car was at the cottage on the afternoon of November 2, 2007. Is the light-colored car seen HERE an Audi A3?

///

 

[RWVBWL]

Is there any information about where Raffaele parks his car in Perugia? There is limited parking in town so one option is to park in the covered parking garage only a few blocks away on the edge of town. I got the impression that Amanda and Raffaele were headed out of town that morning and were stopping at the cottage on the way to check it out. If Raffaele's car was in town, I would have expected him to bring the car to the cottage since that is in the direction they were going and then they wouldn't have to walk back to begin their trip.

Hi Dan O.,
The only info I recall ever reading was in Candace Dempsey's book 'Murder in Italy'.

On page 19 she wrote this:
Few students could afford to live alone on the expensive old town, but Raffaele not only had his on place but also weekly maid service. He kept a black Audi parked outside, a major status symbol.

On page 30 C. Dempsey also wrote this:
"Raffaele, sure, we all remember ," said a barber whose shop was across the street fro Raffaele's flat.<snip> He rubbed his fingers to show that Raffaele had soldi (money). This was obvious to everyone, because of the Audi parked in the narrow street.
"Every day we see the car. One time it was sticking out and I asked him to move it."
The barber laughed as he clipped a clients hair. He explained that Perugia was a quiet place. People were cautious, observant. They recalled these little incidents, seen through windows on the street.
"Yes, Raffaele was very polite. He moved the car right away. And he was very quiet. Never a problem over there."

ILE must have thought so. They ran forensic tests on 18 samples taken from Raffaele's Audi A3, compared to just 5 from Filomena's room. Go figure.

Thanks for the info, RoseMontague.
18 tests? Wow! And they still did not find anything incriminating*?
I would surmise that the cops definitely were looking for a black car seen at the top of the driveway that night. Wouldn't you agree?
RW



* - (Sounds familiar, kinda like those 30 some-odd thousand phone calls they intercepted of Family Sollecito, and still not finding evidence to incriminate Raff.)
Hmmm...

 

[Grinder]

"Raffaele, sure, we all remember ," said a barber whose shop was across the street fro Raffaele's flat.<snip> He rubbed his fingers to show that Raffaele had soldi (money). This was obvious to everyone, because of the Audi parked in the narrow street.
"Every day we see the car. One time it wass sticking out and I asked him to move it."
The barber laughed as he clipped a clients hair. He explained that Perugia was a quiet place. People were cautious, observant. They recalled these littl incidents, seen through windows on the street.

Yet, not one normal person saw anything that night except for the diners seeing a young black man run past them.

Who was it that reported the black car in the drive? Was it the tow truck driver and the people that had the broken down car?