Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Bruce Fischer]

Who's the liar!

------

 

[Fine]

It looks like that image was taken by one Pietro Crocchioni, who appears to be a local Perugian photog. It was published by the Telegraph with a caption that states "November 4: A post-mortem examination reveals evidence of sexual activity at some point before Miss Kercher died." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/8796784/Meredith-Kercher-murder-the-trial-of-Amanda-Knox-Raffaele-Sollecito-and-Rudy-Guede.html?image=2
However, the description of this photo on the EPA website states: "Visible traces of blood on a wall in the apartment in Perugia, southern Italy, 3rd November 2007 following the murder 2nd November 2007 of British student Meredith Kercher. "

Was Crocchioni also inside the cottage on 11/3, or maybe this was taken through a window???

_________________________-

Diocletus,

However.........this news report says explicitly that the same photograph was taken by the cops on November 2nd ("Il filmato girato dalla Scientifica il 2 novembre"): HERE. In which case it's highly unlikely that it was taken through the balcony window.

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[Dan O.]

One of the photo-journalists who participated in that March, 2010, Exhibition in Perugia took photographs of the crime scene within the cottage. See: HERE.

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I thought at first you were just being very clever with your choice of words. This is in fact a picture of the crime scene within the cottage. But the photographer is not in the cottage and not even on the property unles he's learned to fly and take pictures at the same time.

This photo was taken from the street (or perhaps the car park across the street) looking through the open double door to the patio and through the door to Meredith's bedroom. At the top of the picture you can see the exterior wall above the patio doors. There was also video taken from nearly the same vantage point.

If someone contacts the photographer, try to find out exactly when the photo was taken. It would be interesting if someone had opened those doors before Lalli came in to take temperature readings.

 

[DarkStar2011]

Do not know specifically what Machiavelli thinks, but one thing which really surprised me at PMF last night:
A new poster set forth their theory that AK and RS probably failed to protect Kercher from their out-of-control pal Guede, and thus, were justly given 4 years - and nothing more- for failing to protect their friend, and cleaning up - while Guede himself justly remains behind in prison.

Incidentally, this is the ONLY theory which I ever gave even the slightest passing credence to. (that is, once I no longer believed the initial sex-game-gone-wrong theory originally proposed in the media).

The big problem with that theory is exactly the same as the one pushed by Massei in his motivations report (i.e. that Knox and Sollecito just happened to be in her room when Guede attacked Kercher and, for some reason, chose to help him rape her instead of coming to her defense): if Knox and Sollecito weren't part of an explicit, premeditated plot against Kercher, why did they go back to her apartment at all? They were nicely sequestered at his place, with food, wine, pot, movies, and a convenient bed...why not just continue to spend the night there, instead of, for no apparent reason, deciding to get up and walk for about ten minutes on a cold evening to go back to her place? Are we supposed to believe that they had some unaccountable urge to be able to claim to have had sex in each of their beds on the same night? Because, aside from that "explanation," there's no reason for them to have troubled themselves to leave his apartment...unless, of course, you buy into Mignini's fantasy that they had a pre-arranged plan with Lumumba Guede to ambush Kercher and force her into an orgy and/or Satanic Freemason sexual rite that wound up, accidentally or deliberately, in murder. Take that premeditated attack away, and there's no reason for them to be at the cottage at all.

What surprised me: The PMFers would have none of it: They believe still in Amanda as ring leader. A few, that RS and AK were at least egging on, and physically involved. Many argue for the idea that Knox wielded the knife ( examples of women in Great Britain who have stabbed other women are cited at great length by a PMF poster - of course, what they fail to talk about is nearly all these cases involved either: a. a woman going after her cheating husband's mistress or b. a lesbian couple in a messy break-up - neither of which can be applied to the Knox/Kercher scenario.)

Frankly, it doesn't surprise me in the least. The sole motivation of guilters I've run across appears to be hate and resentment toward Amanda Knox for "what she is." If there's any theory that makes her something less than Evil Incarnate, it will be rejected with just as much violence as an outright declaration of her innocence...because, to them, the two things are practically one-and-the-same.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>It seems you were a little intimidated by Peter "Quinnell" rant, being that you clicked violation and the mods buckled. I think it's a perfect example of the amazing denial in this case.

It was on topic in relevant. You're clearly just trying to take advantage of the mods who will pretty much erase any post when violation is clicked because they're tired of this thread.

Obviously, it contained things you didn't want other people to see. Is that your role now? I suggest anyone take a look at it, as it can still be viewed, and you can tell me how it makes your gang on PMF look. You don't get to have it both ways. You come in here and tell us how respected and well read these blogs are, then we discuss them in the context of the case, people throw hissy fits. Get over it:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7709284

All of the posts that were removed were on topic.

Do we know for sure it was pilot who did the clicking? I notice that the moderator on duty was kmortis (self-titled "Chief IDIOT"), who has shown himself a number of times in the past to be less familiar than he needs to be with the thread to be qualified to decide what is and is not off topic.

Didaktylos had this "off-topic" post removed:

"When the DNA review was granted, the defense's Komodo dragon got the scent of the prosecution's water buffalo. When the report was delivered, it was clear that the lizard had got the bite that it needed. The death throes were protracted and painful but the buffalo's fate was sealed then."

Perhaps it was too poetic for certain "chief idiots" to comprehend.

 

[Antony]

Frankly, it doesn't surprise me in the least. The sole motivation of guilters I've run across appears to be hate and resentment toward Amanda Knox for "what she is." If there's any theory that makes her something less than Evil Incarnate, it will be rejected with just as much violence as an outright declaration of her innocence...because, to them, the two things are practically one-and-the-same.

Interesting you put "what she is" in quotes. Are there really bloggers who justify their views in these terms? This is the basis of hate-crimes: irrational hostility towards someone because of actual or perceived association with a particular group.

Of course, there will be people who swallow the prosecution lies and the Massei verdict uncritically, and who develop a hatred for the accused because of a simple belief that they were the murderers. But there's also a curious instinct for dislike that manifests itself, when the person experiencing it has committed some act against the object of their dislike, which I think is at play here. It's a defence mechanism that starts to operate in someone who has signed-up to the hate campaign, after any rational reason to believe in guilt has disappeared.

The same is true for certain individuals in their hatred towards the Knox "groupies". We have committed the unforgivable sin of being right.

 

[smkovalinksy]

The big problem with that theory is exactly the same as the one pushed by Massei in his motivations report (i.e. that Knox and Sollecito just happened to be in her room when Guede attacked Kercher and, for some reason, chose to help him rape her instead of coming to her defense): if Knox and Sollecito weren't part of an explicit, premeditated plot against Kercher, why did they go back to her apartment at all? They were nicely sequestered at his place, with food, wine, pot, movies, and a convenient bed...why not just continue to spend the night there, instead of, for no apparent reason, deciding to get up and walk for about ten minutes on a cold evening to go back to her place? Are we supposed to believe that they had some unaccountable urge to be able to claim to have had sex in each of their beds on the same night? Because, aside from that "explanation," there's no reason for them to have troubled themselves to leave his apartment...unless, of course, you buy into Mignini's fantasy that they had a pre-arranged plan with Lumumba Guede to ambush Kercher and force her into an orgy and/or Satanic Freemason sexual rite that wound up, accidentally or deliberately, in murder. Take that premeditated attack away, and there's no reason for them to be at the cottage at all.


Frankly, it doesn't surprise me in the least. The sole motivation of guilters I've run across appears to be hate and resentment toward Amanda Knox for "what she is." If there's any theory that makes her something less than Evil Incarnate, it will be rejected with just as much violence as an outright declaration of her innocence...because, to them, the two things are practically one-and-the-same.

Excellent points. But this last one is very worrisome. What is wrong with these people that they are not objective, aloof, neutral? What is driving their desire to see her as evil incarnate? I do not buy what others have said, to the effect, "They bought into the original media stories and now cannot turn back". There is something more at work here, and it looks akin to anti-Semitic psychosis, in which the Jew MUST be evil, he cannot be anything less.

 

[Mary_H]

Interesting you put "what she is" in quotes. Are there really bloggers who justify their views in these terms? This is basis of hate-crimes: irrational hostility towards someone because of actual or perceived association with a particular group.
Of course, there will be people who swallow the prosecution lies and the Massei verdict uncritically, and who develop a hatred for the accused because of a simple belief that they were the murderers. But there's also a curious instinct for dislike that manifests itself, when the person experiencing it has committed some act against the object of their dislike, which I think is at play here. It's a defence mechanism that starts to operate in someone who has signed-up to the hate campaign, after any rational reason to believe in guilt has disappeared.

The same is true for certain individuals in their hatred towards the Knox "groupies". We have committed the unforgivable sin of being right.

When people first started posting about the case in the various venues, it was very common to see Amanda referred to by all the familiar female-specific expletives. In fact, I would venture to say that there were more posts about what a "whore" Amanda was than about any other subject matter. Obviously, these were the people with problems having to do with sex and women.

Next in number were the posts about how "rich and privileged" Amanda and Raffaele were. That bias still feeds most of the guilters, I think, and they can rationalize it by suggesting that it was wealth and privilege that got Amanda and Raffaele attention, supporters and a "not-guilty" decision. But really, for some reason, they just feel hatred toward people they perceive as being privileged, even when their perceptions are askew.

 

[smkovalinksy]

The same is true for certain individuals in their hatred towards the Knox "groupies". We have committed the unforgivable sin of being right.

That about sums it up, doesn't it?

 

[Grinder]

Are we supposed to believe that they had some unaccountable urge to be able to claim to have had sex in each of their beds on the same night? Because, aside from that "explanation," there's no reason for them to have troubled themselves to leave his apartment...unless, of course, you buy into Mignini's fantasy that they had a pre-arranged plan with Lumumba Guede to ambush Kercher and force her into an orgy and/or Satanic Freemason sexual rite that wound up, accidentally or deliberately, in murder. Take that premeditated attack away, and there's no reason for them to be at the cottage at all.

It is possible (and therefore probable ) that Amanda wanted to be on her turf for once. I've certainly run into the "why can't we sleep at my place?" refrain with a new lover. She could have also said that it would be more convenient to be where her clothes were and she has indicated that she preferred her own shower.

I don't believe they were there, but I don't think the only reason would be a premeditated attack.

 

[smkovalinksy]

It is possible (and therefore probable ) that Amanda wanted to be on her turf for once. I've certainly run into the "why can't we sleep at my place?" refrain with a new lover. She could have also said that it would be more convenient to be where her clothes were and she has indicated that she preferred her own shower.

I don't believe they were there, but I don't think the only reason would be a premeditated attack.

Right, and if this occurred, then it opens the door, just a tiny bit, to the possibility - but not probability - that they were too stoned or busy to protect Kercher from Guede and then later panicked. I do NOT believe this is what occurred, but it is a remote possibility, and far more believable than a 3 on 1 attack. But the PMFers will have none of it.

 

[Grinder]

When people first started posting about the case in the various venues, it was very common to see Amanda referred to by all the familiar female-specific expletives. In fact, I would venture to say that there were more posts about what a "whore" Amanda was than about any other subject matter. Obviously, these were the people with problems having to do with sex and women.

Next in number were the posts about how "rich and privileged" Amanda and Raffaele were. That bias still feeds most of the guilters, I think, and they can rationalize it by suggesting that it was wealth and privilege that got Amanda and Raffaele attention, supporters and a "not-guilty" decision. But really, for some reason, they just feel hatred toward people they perceive as being privileged, even when their perceptions are askew.

The P** site started on a Crime Tourist site but the guy there became frustrated with the intensity of some of the posters. Frank's site was repeatedly attacked by pro-guilt (PG) commenters that would post huge pieces of literature to make the thread unreadable.

The West Seattle threesome of Tara, Peg, and Kathleen seem to have a visceral dislike for Amanda and anybody associated with her. They were the ones that went to the fundraiser at Salty's. K and her husband proudly were interviewed by a local TV station, stating that not all people in Seattle supported Amanda and that's why they were there. The women in particular seemed to be jealous of her youth and being attractive.

Obviously, the PG people are made up of many different types. Only two that I know of have tried to make a name for themselves, Peg and Pete. At the end of the appeal Peg started moving people over to her personal blog.

Some of them actually may wish to keep Meredith's memory alive but they seem to be in a small minority. Some have found a community - those that plead for a PM because they are having a bad day.

I've never followed a case before and was surprised that so many people are Crime Tourists. Many of the P**ers seem to be able to call up numerous cases at the drop of a hat.

There is also some aspect of frustrated writers. I think that explains their hatred of Preston and other successful writers. It also explains why they hate on Amanda's writing so much. I must say I'm not impressed at all by her writing.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the sites after its over.

And Harry Machine...who knows?

 

[Dan O.]

All of the posts that were removed were on topic.

There are two possible valid reasons for the posts to have been removed. JREF has a long standing policy that you should not paste whole articles from another site but instead quote selected snippets that you will be commenting on and link to the rest of the article. The reasoning would be partially related to copyright issues but the JREF also wants members to make their own arguments and not flood the forum with other peoples walls of text.

The second is that the threat of being banned would carry little weight if others can help you carry on your arguments by proxy so it is not permitted to post the writings of a banned member. Do we know for a fact that Peter Quinnell had not signed up here and gotten himself banned before any of us had identified him?


ETA: There is always the open ended option whenever there are unexplained events: believe that this is the work of an unseen god and we are incapable of understanding god's logic so just accept it and perform some unrelated ritual in the hope of appeasing the god that you can't even know exists.

 

[Grinder]

Right, and if this occurred, then it opens the door, just a tiny bit, to the possibility - but not probability - that they were too stoned or busy to protect Kercher from Guede and then later panicked. I do NOT believe this is what occurred, but it is a remote possibility, and far more believable than a 3 on 1 attack. But the PMFers will have none of it.

Totally agree. Except we learned from Massei possible means probable

It would be consistent with no evidence in the murder room and the alleged lack of prints in Amanda's room.

I have always thought something more than Rudy breaking in and killing her happened. Kokomani with another thug came with Rudy to break in and Meredith showed up. Rudy afraid of the gang.

I've never understood why Rudy didn't do more to reduce his sentence. I always thought his Skype call should be strong evidence that Amanda didn't do it.

 

[Mary_H]

There are two possible valid reasons for the posts to have been removed. JREF has a long standing policy that you should not paste whole articles from another site but instead quote selected snippets that you will be commenting on and link to the rest of the article. The reasoning would be partially related to copyright issues but the JREF also wants members to make their own arguments and not flood the forum with other peoples walls of text.

The second is that the threat of being banned would carry little weight if others can help you carry on your arguments by proxy so it is not permitted to post the writings of a banned member. Do we know for a fact that Peter Quinnell had not signed up here and gotten himself banned before any of us had identified him?

We'll have to see whether HumanityBlues was informed that either of those was the reason his post was removed.

ETA: There is always the open ended option whenever there are unexplained events: believe that this is the work of an unseen god and we are incapable of understanding god's logic so just accept it and perform some unrelated ritual in the hope of appeasing the god that you can't even know exists.

I don't know why this has never occurred to me. I'll try it and let you know how it turns out. A ritual of chocolate will do.

 

[Dougm]

Totally agree. Except we learned from Massei possible means probable

It would be consistent with no evidence in the murder room and the alleged lack of prints in Amanda's room.

I have always thought something more than Rudy breaking in and killing her happened. Kokomani with another thug came with Rudy to break in and Meredith showed up. Rudy afraid of the gang.

I've never understood why Rudy didn't do more to reduce his sentence. I always thought his Skype call should be strong evidence that Amanda didn't do it.

Although I understand how the idea of Rudy doing it himself is open to debate, I don't think there is a current plausible theory or much evidence to support an alternative. I think that the reason Rudy did not do more to mitigate his sentence, and instead played the "help the prosecution get Amanda and Raffaele" card, is that he has no other option. He doesn't have anyone to turn on, because the case is simple. Rudy broke in, Meredith surprised him, something happened between them to get him angry, and he killed her. Unless something totally new comes up, I think that is what happened.

 

[davefoc]

Although I understand how the idea of Rudy doing it himself is open to debate, I don't think there is a current plausible theory or much evidence to support an alternative. I think that the reason Rudy did not do more to mitigate his sentence, and instead played the "help the prosecution get Amanda and Raffaele" card, is that he has no other option. He doesn't have anyone to turn on, because the case is simple. Rudy broke in, Meredith surprised him, something happened between them to get him angry, and he killed her. Unless something totally new comes up, I think that is what happened.

I almost completely agree with this. I would feel more confident of this if I didn't think it was probable that he was offered reduced time for specifically accusing RS/AK and not anything else. So at least on a theoretical level he still might be protecting somebody if it wasn't in his interest to reveal who that individual was.

One thing that I don't know about is what would be the typical sentence for this kind of crime in Italy. Sixteen years seems very small given that the perpetrator of this kind of crime is a very good candidate to do it again.

 

[Dougm]

It is possible (and therefore probable ) that Amanda wanted to be on her turf for once. I've certainly run into the "why can't we sleep at my place?" refrain with a new lover. She could have also said that it would be more convenient to be where her clothes were and she has indicated that she preferred her own shower.

I don't believe they were there, but I don't think the only reason would be a premeditated attack.

Agree this is possible, but also unlikely. One thing to remember is that they had been a couple for only a few days, so there wasn't much time for anything to get stale. Amanda had started up a new, exciting relationship with an Italian guy, and he was well off, and had his own place, and his own car. They could do anything they wanted there, with no interuptions from roomates.

One of the reasons I found this idea they wanted to leave, go out, and have a sex orgy with Meredith and Guede, is just how attractive the set up they already had was. They have been dating and having fun, but have Amanda's work, both of their classes, studying, other friends, etc, that get in the way. All of a sudden they get a free night, no work, no homework, don't have to get up early the next day ... and they have Raff's apartment all to themselves. I don't know very many people that would not have been excited at the idea of staying in at his place, that would be the exciting and fun option. They would have to be pretty weird to decide, "no, we don't want to stay in this nice apartment with food, wine, pot, movies, love making -- no, we want to go out, find some guy we barely know, get a knife, go to another place, and have a violent sex orgy."

It just doesn't make any sense at all. It is much more logical that Guede, by himself, did what he did, and Amanda and Raff stayed home. That is the story that makes sense, and the evidence backs it up.

 

[Dougm]

I almost completely agree with this. I would feel more confident of this if I didn't think it was probable that he was offered reduced time for specifically accusing RS/AK and not anything else. So at least on a theoretical level he still might be protecting somebody if it wasn't in his interest to reveal who that individual was.

One thing that I don't know about is what would be the typical sentence for this kind of crime in Italy. Sixteen years seems very small given that the perpetrator of this kind of crime is a very good candidate to do it again.

The only logical point I can think of that supports Rudy's behavior since his arrest that supports the theory of an accomplice is if he is afraid of that person, so he decided to try to get Amanda and Raff convicted instead, to both give himself better treatment, and throw the cops off the trail.

I would be able to go that way if there was more evidence of anyone else being there. A guy's car parked nearby that night, with not much else, is not enough for me to go down that road.

 

[RWVBWL]

Totally agree. Except we learned from Massei possible means probable

It would be consistent with no evidence in the murder room and the alleged lack of prints in Amanda's room.

I have always thought something more than Rudy breaking in and killing her happened. Kokomani with another thug came with Rudy to break in and Meredith showed up. Rudy afraid of the gang.
I've never understood why Rudy didn't do more to reduce his sentence. I always thought his Skype call should be strong evidence that Amanda didn't do it.

Hi Grinder and everyone else
Barbie Nadeau says on page 36 of 'Angel Face' that Meredith Kercher, during the day of Nov. 1st, went downstairs and watered the marijuana plants that her new beau, Giacomo was growing. Afterwards she sent him a flirty text message saying how excited she was to see him when he got back.

Does anyone know if this is correct,
that Mez watered the plants during the daytime?

I assume that this is sometime during the same time frame when Amanda says that she saw Mez put clothes in the washers or take them out, in her email home. Or right afterwards when Raff and Amanda saw her leave, (wearing a pair of her English boyfriend Patrick Cronin's old bluejeans, that Raff thought was cute) to head over to Robyn's place.

The reason I ask, is I'm thinking about how and when that cats blood got on the lightswitch, and then on the tissue/TP/paper towels found outside. If Mez had watered the plants during the daytime, as B. Nadeau writes, then I would think that she would not have done so when she came home that night.

But might she have gone downstairs right after she got home to look in on the hurt cat? While still wearing her jacket on a chilly night.

Check this out:
So let's say that it is Hekuran Kokomani's car, I believe it's a black, Golf that was parked in the upper part of the gals cotage driveway later that night. Rudy, in his diary entry, says he saw a white car there and a drug dealer he recognised. Let's say that Rudy changes the details from it being a black car to white car, to try and throw off the investigation, since we know he isn't being completely truthful with every single detail of what happened that night.

Guede gains entrance to her apartment by throwing the rock and climbing in. Kokmani is on the lookout.* A bit thirsty from this climbing, he goes into the kitchen, and drinks orange juice from the container. Meredith comes home, see this car there. Rudy hears Meredith outsde, fumbling with her keys and then opening the door and then entering. He very quickly enters Filomena/Laura's bathroom, next to the kitchen. Locks the door, sittin' on the toilet. "Oh cheiit mon, someone's home" he thinks. Meredith comes into her bedroom, puts here bag down and that history book, Early Modern History, 1450-1789, that she borrowed. She thinks of the hurt cat that she is supposed to look after, and with her coat still on, goes downstairs to look in on it, also to seeing what's up with that car, is it still there, before she maybe calls the cops on it. When she entered Giacomo's place, she did not lock the downstairs door and while she is inside there Hekuran enters the guys apartmment too, startling Meredith, a small fight ensues, trashin' Stefano's room a bit, which had been neat when he left for the holiday weekend. In my opinion, this is the only room where it seems a fight could have occurred at the cottage, either upstairs or downstairs. There is simply no explanation that I've seen for Stefano's room, tidied up before he left, to be messy. Didn't Rudy Guede say that he heard a comotion downstairs at some point? Was Meredith brought back upstair a knifepoint by Kokomani and forced to enter her room for $$$?
Thoughts?

Hmmm,
RW


* - (Same as what possibly happened at the lawyers office break-in, Kokomani disabled the alarm, stood outside as a lookout, Rudy threw a rock, and climbed in, drank some refreshments, and stole some stuff, including a printer, which was probably afterwards placed into a car and then they split.)