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More from the economic miracle that is China

BenBurch

Gatekeeper of The Left
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http://www.npr.org/2011/10/25/14155...nancing-exacts-high-toll-in-china?ft=1&f=1001

In recent weeks, at least 80 business owners have fled Wenzhou in eastern China and gone into hiding because they can't pay crushing debts to the city's empire of underground lending firms and loan sharks.

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao became so concerned that he flew to Wenzhou earlier in October to try to keep the problem from spreading.

The city's credit crisis highlights some of the flaws — and potential risks — of the banking system in the world's second-largest economy.

<SNIP>

And in other news construction of the high speed rail network has been halted due to massive problems.

Sounds like things are coming off the rails there.
 
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/25/14155...nancing-exacts-high-toll-in-china?ft=1&f=1001

And in other news construction of the high speed rail network has been halted due to massive problems.

Sounds like things are coming off the rails there.

To put it mildly.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonchang/2011/10/23/chinese-ministry-saved-from-default/

(...) the Railways Ministry reached agreement with the central government to force state banks to support its nationwide building program.

McHrozni
 
As someone who loves China, and has a great deal invested here (18 years of my life, a non-profit organization, and a new business), I wish this were not true. However, the reality is that it is even worse than this article says, and I've actually been predicting for years that China's headed for an economic collapse that will destroy much of their progress, and probably send the world into an even worse economic depression.

China's banks are carrying billions of dollars in bad loans, far worse than the bad loans that brought down America's economy. Many of them are loans that were made to state-owned companies that were incredibly unprofitable, and incompetently run. Many more are loans to cover the cost of massive infrastructure development (railways, roads, schools, hospitals, etc.) that, while important, are unlikely to be repaid in the foreseeable future.

The real estate industry is in one of the biggest bubbles in history, with prices in major cities massively inflated, while developers continue to build massive amounts of new units, when many existing ones are still sitting empty. Its gonna' crash, and its gonna' crash big-time. Given that real estate is currently one of the primary investments for Chinese -- often their entire life savings, plus significant loans, are invested in these properties -- the panic induced by fears of the bubble bursting will be enough to drive China's economy into the pits all by itself.

But there's another side to this...and one of the reasons, despite being convinced of this inevitable economic collapse, that I am staying here.

I do believe that China is going to be the world's next economic powerhouse (far moreso than it is now). But right now, one of the things that is holding China back from real success is, ironically, its rapid economic development. The fact is, pretty much anybody and their brother can start a company in China, and have reasonable expectations of success. While some of those companies are professional and highly competitive, the majority don't have the slightest clue what they're doing, and provide products/services of incredibly poor quality. We've all seen the news stories about dangerous/defective products from China. The problem within China is even bigger. And until China gets rid of most of those fly-by-night crappy operations, China cannot really be competitive with the rest of the world.

I predict that China's economic disaster will last 5-10 years...but that after that time, China will emerge as a true economic power. All the crappy, poor quality businesses that thrive here today will have been wiped out of existence. The only ones that will survive -- and be in the best position to capitalize once China emerges from its crisis -- will be the really strong, competitive ones.

I plan to be one of those successful ones. I'm preparing for the storm now, in full expectation of a major economic crisis, with plans in place to survive it. And, once we come out on the other side, to really thrive in the world's largest economy.
 
Hey, Wolfman! Glad to see you back. (You came back for the Amanda Knox thread, right?)

Long day today so not enough energy left to get into this in depth. Suffice it to say that I agree with you, in part, but I don't see a crash so much as a rather rocky period. Be that as it may, it'll all come down to the timing. If it hits soon, it could be a crash. There isn't enough cash being generated in foreign trade right now* because Europe is just plain not buying, and the USA, while in a bit better shape, is buying more selectively. If the first Bank Problem (it'll probably start with a bank, although some of the LLS(legal loan sharks) could start the snowball) hits this winter, it could get real tense.

*I don't care what the statistics say by the end of Q4, I know from the volumes of containers moving that whatever they report, it ain't good!
 
Wolfman is back, yay! :)

I predict that China's economic disaster will last 5-10 years...but that after that time, China will emerge as a true economic power. All the crappy, poor quality businesses that thrive here today will have been wiped out of existence. The only ones that will survive -- and be in the best position to capitalize once China emerges from its crisis -- will be the really strong, competitive ones.

I plan to be one of those successful ones. I'm preparing for the storm now, in full expectation of a major economic crisis, with plans in place to survive it. And, once we come out on the other side, to really thrive in the world's largest economy.

A question emerges - why do you think Chinese companies can outcompete the rest of the world? I'm not saying you're wrong, it's an honest question :)

McHrozni
 
A question emerges - why do you think Chinese companies can outcompete the rest of the world? I'm not saying you're wrong, it's an honest question :)

Significantly larger and cheaper workforce pool doesn't hurt.
 
Significantly larger and cheaper workforce pool doesn't hurt.

China is one of the worlds' most rapidly aging societies. Their workforce advantage is evaporating. You're left with a load of cheap workforce that also has to support their aging parents. Not exactly an ideal situation for sustained growth.

China is huge, that's true. That, however, is not often an advantage in having a strong economy - India is a prime example.

McHrozni
 
But there's another side to this...and one of the reasons, despite being convinced of this inevitable economic collapse, that I am staying here.

Gotta be either the food (spare me the stinky tofu, though) or the women.

Nonetheless, welcome back!

Michael
 
I'm not exactly sure how this plays into it, but I would think massive loans to the US are serving to destabilize China also.

The US and Chinese governments have both acted for their own reasons to put world economic stability at risk.

The American government did it for the simple reason that borrowing is an easy way to make people think that things are better than they are. The US has been doing it big time for about ten years and where this is headed for the US isn't clear.

The Chinese government did it because it was trying to artificially generate markets for Chinese products to jump start the Chinese manufacturing sector and because it wanted to destabilize the US to prevent the US from mucking about in what Chinese leaders saw as China's business.

Between the two sets of leaders it looks like the Americans have probably been the most cynical. Their actions were clearly against the long term interest of their country, but they were clearly in the financial and political interest of the US leadership.

The Chinese leadership might have thought the policy was beneficial for the country because of its success in assisting with the development of the Chinese manufacturing sector, and because they judged that a weakened US was in the interest of the Chinese people. But they may have lost by their successes. The gradually declining US that they aimed for could turn into a basket case that brings down the Chinese economy with it.
 
Suffice it to say that I agree with you, in part, but I don't see a crash so much as a rather rocky period. Be that as it may, it'll all come down to the timing. If it hits soon, it could be a crash. There isn't enough cash being generated in foreign trade right now* because Europe is just plain not buying, and the USA, while in a bit better shape, is buying more selectively. If the first Bank Problem (it'll probably start with a bank, although some of the LLS(legal loan sharks) could start the snowball) hits this winter, it could get real tense.
The reason I think it'll be a crash is because of what I see as the inevitable response of the Chinese population. In short, pure panic. A stock market that will crash overnight; properties that will plummet in value 80% or more as people try desperately to unload them; widespread withdrawals of personal savings from banks, leaving the banks cashless; and a complete switch from a consumer culture (which is very new here) to 100% saving every cent that you can under the mattress in your bedroom.

If the gov't could control the peoples' reactions, they might avoid a crash...but I don't think they'll be able to do that. Once the process starts, it'll spiral rapidly out of control. I suppose that the gov't might be able to mitigate it by closing the stock exchange, closing banks, and strictly limiting property sales until the panic passes...but such an effort could quite possibly lead to outright revolution.

A question emerges - why do you think Chinese companies can outcompete the rest of the world? I'm not saying you're wrong, it's an honest question :)

McHrozni
Several reasons.

First, because even though costs are increasing here, they're still much lower than in developed nations, and will continue to be for quite some time to come.

Second, because of the sheer scale. China can manufacture on a scale that most other countries cannot.

Third, keep in mind, these days, when you're manufacturing in China, its not just for sale to the overseas market...it is often also for sale within the mainland Chinese market. The profits from that alone make manufacturing in China worthwhile.

Some people will mention India...but India is only superficially comparable. India suffers from a lack of centralization and gov't control that still leaves it largely chaotic and unpredictable. For all the obvious abuses of the Chinese gov't, their strong nation-wide control also ensures a much, much more stable business environment.

But the biggest reason...the Chinese culture. Throughout Asia, Chinese are often referred to as the "Jews of Asia". In virtually every Asian country, the Chinese immigrants, even if only a small minority of the overall population, tend to dominate business. The children are born and raised with the expectation of excellence, and their families will invest everything to accomplish that goal. To me, the strongest indicator of China's ongoing dominance in business is how well Chinese do in countries outside of China...success that has now grown into a truly international network of connections that I don't believe can be rivaled by any other nation.

An interesting side note -- unlike most cultures, that seem to have a negative bias against Jews, in China Jews are highly admired and respected. I know Chinese parents that have told their kids, "If you're going to marry a foreigner, please try to find a Jew."

If you don't mind saying, what do you do?
Currently, I am the founder/director of a non-profit organization (www.mosuoproject.org); and have just opened a new business, doing executive training focusing on Chinese businesses (essentially, give Chinese executives who are interested in the international market the training, skills, and knowledge to be able to compete effectively in that environment).
 
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And now I hear that China plans to contribute to the European bailout. WTF. I know that they need Europe, but how are their own problems not more acute?
Its rather ironic that an undeveloped nation is key to bailing out these developed nations...but not at all unpredictable. The past 10 years in particular have demonstrated a China that wants to prove its ability to compete with (or even out-compete) the U.S. on the world stage. Increased participation in peace-keeping and disaster relief around the world. A much stronger role in the UN, not just focusing on China, but on international issues.

And now, a key role in bailing out the EU...something that the U.S. is not in the position to do.

China's not only grabbing bragging rights, but also putting the entire EU in debt to it (both literally and figuratively). And you can be damn sure they'll be expecting repayment.
 
...

China's not only grabbing bragging rights, but also putting the entire EU in debt to it (both literally and figuratively). And you can be damn sure they'll be expecting repayment.

I wonder what government, if any, will exist to collect?

Wolfman, if it starts looking like civil war there, get out. A nuclear civil war is nothing you can hide from.
 
Let me get this clear before I start, I'm not trying to show you wrong, I'm just pointing out my doubts about some of your reasons :)

First, because even though costs are increasing here, they're still much lower than in developed nations, and will continue to be for quite some time to come.

Certainly, but I'm quite sure the costs are already higher than those in developing nations. Unless China makes a significant turn and expand their domestic market, their growth will falter significantly. If they do, they loose on their cost advantage. Finding balance is always tricky.

Second, because of the sheer scale. China can manufacture on a scale that most other countries cannot.

Okay, though the gap is much narrower if you include several other countries in the mix - like Indonesia, Vietnam and Philliphines, with a combined population in excess of 350 million. A fraction of that of China, certainly, but also a fairly significant competitor.

Third, keep in mind, these days, when you're manufacturing in China, its not just for sale to the overseas market...it is often also for sale within the mainland Chinese market. The profits from that alone make manufacturing in China worthwhile.

If Chinese economy hits a serious snag, as it's bound to soon as you say, that's no longer an advantage.

Some people will mention India...but India is only superficially comparable. India suffers from a lack of centralization and gov't control that still leaves it largely chaotic and unpredictable. For all the obvious abuses of the Chinese gov't, their strong nation-wide control also ensures a much, much more stable business environment.

Yes, China has several advantages, and their centralized government works partially to it's advantage as well. Corruption, favoritism, etc aside, it works towards one goal: to have a huge economy.

Unfortunately it's also a drawback. In doing so, they serious neglected an amicable foreign policy, resorting to petty thuggery to get what they want, inflated bubbles of gargantuan proportions and left a large proportion of population out of the loop.

But the biggest reason...the Chinese culture. Throughout Asia, Chinese are often referred to as the "Jews of Asia". In virtually every Asian country, the Chinese immigrants, even if only a small minority of the overall population, tend to dominate business. The children are born and raised with the expectation of excellence, and their families will invest everything to accomplish that goal. To me, the strongest indicator of China's ongoing dominance in business is how well Chinese do in countries outside of China...success that has now grown into a truly international network of connections that I don't believe can be rivaled by any other nation.

Yes, that one is a significant advantage, that is true.

Looking at it, how would you comment on a comparison between Imperial Germany in 1910 and China now? Certainly there are several significant differances - imperial Germany being much more kind to it's people for instance - but important parallels exist, agreed?

I see China as a dinosaur of late 19th to early 20th century, a fascist state that is oriented towards "establishing it's place under the Sun", much like Germany. In order to do so they need a powerful economy, which became just about their sole goal in the past 30 or so years.

McHrozni
 
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Certainly, but I'm quite sure the costs are already higher than those in developing nations. Unless China makes a significant turn and expand their domestic market, their growth will falter significantly. If they do, they loose on their cost advantage. Finding balance is always tricky.
Actually, the costs in China are still lower than in a number of other developing nations; and those who do have lower costs don't have anywhere near the infrastructure and capability that China does. Keep in mind, China is simultaneously a first world and a third world nation...in the major urban areas like Beijing and Shanghai, it has all the trappings of a first-world nation; but head out West, and you have areas that are still very much third-world (I myself run a charity in an area of the Himalayas where many people don't even have electricity or running water, and living is much the same as it was 100 years ago). So while costs are increasing in some parts of China, they are still very very low in other parts. Its still gonna' be quite some time before that changes.

I have no problem with your disagreement...simply point out any other country that can provide the same massive infrastructure, at the same or a lower cost :)

Okay, though the gap is much narrower if you include several other countries in the mix - like Indonesia, Vietnam and Philliphines, with a combined population in excess of 350 million. A fraction of that of China, certainly, but also a fairly significant competitor.
You're "throwing together" countries that are separated by oceans, and with little or no political cooperation. Different business laws, and different systems of government. Philippines is a struggling democracy with tons of corruption; Indonesia is a Muslim democracy that's dealing with major internal ethnic conflict; and Vietnam is a Communist nation that lags behind China by at least a decade. And put together, they don't even represent 1/3 of China's capacity.

I'm sorry, but you're really grasping at straws to try to make such a comparison. Ask any multinational if they prefer to have all their industry in one country that can handle it all...or stretched out over several widely separated nations, all with different rules and procedures...and I can pretty easily predict what their choice will be.
If Chinese economy hits a serious snag, as it's bound to soon as you say, that's no longer an advantage.
Ya' know, I came to China in 1993, when it was still very much a struggling economy, and capitalism had just barely begun to rear its head. A great many multinationals came into China during that time...and lost money. For over a decade, in fact, they bled. Why? Because they knew that once the market matured, they'd have access to one of the largest markets in the world, and the companies who had been there from the beginning, developing connections and reputations, would be the ones who'd best capitalize on that.

And the vast majority of foreign business leaders that I've talked with here feel the same way I do. They all expect a period of economic instability, and fully anticipate the possibility of economic hardship during that period. But, like me, they also believe that on the other side of that, there'll be a new, stronger China...with even more money to spend on their products. And they wanna' be here for that.

Besides which, there's the other side of the equation...if/when an economic crisis hits, it may damage the domestic market, but it will also mean that labor costs will go down dramatically. Thus, the loss of profits from domestic sales will be compensated for by increased profits from lower manufacturing costs for exported goods.
Yes, China has several advantages, and their centralized government works partially to it's advantage as well. Corruption, favoritism, etc aside, it works towards one goal: to have a huge economy.

Unfortunately it's also a drawback. In doing so, they serious neglected an amicable foreign policy, resorting to petty thuggery to get what they want, inflated bubbles of gargantuan proportions and left a large proportion of population out of the loop.
Foreign companies quite frankly don't care about if "a large proportion of the population is left out of the loop". And for all the problems that exist in doing business in China (and there are a lot of them), again I'd challenge you to propose any other country that can offer comparable costs, scale, and potential domestic market.

I'm not arguing that China's some sort of paradise (far from it); only that, from a business perspective, there's no other countries currently out there who can compete. China may not be an ideal choice...but try finding a better one.

Looking at it, how would you comment on a comparison between Imperial Germany in 1910 and China now? Certainly there are several significant differances - imperial Germany being much more kind to it's people for instance - but important parallels exist, agreed?
I'm sorry...but I see almost no points of comparison.

I see China as a dinosaur of late 19th to early 20th century, a fascist state that is oriented towards "establishing it's place under the Sun", much like Germany. In order to do so they need a powerful economy, which became just about their sole goal in the past 30 or so years.
Fascist? You are aware that Communism and Fascism are at polar opposites from each other on the political spectrum? While China's certainly no longer anything resembling a pure Communist system, I'd hardly see it as having moved to the opposite extreme of fascism. Quite the opposite, China today is an aggressively capitalistic economy.

I'm sorry, but at this point your arguments seem to be taking a rather big detour from anything that I've seen or experienced in China. Comparisons of modern China to fascist Germany under Hitler seem absolutely ludicrous to me...if you want to continue to make such a comparison, please state some concrete comparisons, rather than simply throwing around (terribly inaccurate and misused) labels like "fascist".
 
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