Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[smkovalinksy]

Reading some of the old Repubblica stories... Thought this was interesting. A friend of Patrick tries to rationalize:

Nov. 8 2007



http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb...1/08/poesie-scatti-di-violenza-enigma-di.html

Just reminds of the small irrelevant stories that emerged about Amanda.

ETA: Apparently, when the friend says Patrick had "some cane", this means to get high.

Yes, very interesting, how once a crime has been proposed as having been committed, everyone begins to recall these incidents. Yes, Malkmus used to bicker on Websleuths, of course it was leading to murder...

 

[curi0us]

Machiavelli, I realize you get overwhelmed with questions here, and I hope you take the time to respond to LashL's long reply to you, but I think the political situation in Italy as you see it may be what you can offer the greatest insight about if you would elaborate more on your beliefs.

I noticed you mentioned you were a protester at the Genoa G8 but you don't subscribe to a ideology that is remotely Marxist or Anarchist. That points to a political ideology which is allied with the tone of your other posts. You've described police beating you and even torturing fellow protesters at the G8. You had so much hostility to the police you even threatened/insulted their sisters and mothers when they interrogated you. You also say another time the police beat to death someone you knew, but despite all that you get deeply offended when foreigners criticize the Italian police. Despite all that you would rather endlessly demonize a 20 year old American girl who smoked pot (and liked sex and the Beatles) before admitting that the police were in error in prosecuting her.

A few example quotes to show what I am talking about:

I had been questioned by the police. Much tougher police, actual mobsters, real criminals, those who beat and tortured and sent hundreds to hospital the 2001 G8 in Genova. I was also beaten by cops and subjet to a series of illegal acts (actually I was also shot after in the street).
Not only I told them only the plain truth and nothing else, I also told them a series of things about their mothers and sisters.

Nobody's perfect. Anyway I addressed also things of them different from their mothers and sisters, but they are not fit to a discussion forum.
I think in Nicaragua I'd have no problem of language, but I may be facing mercenaries paid by the US government and CIA officers, which would put me in a very serious problem because I don't know where they live and where their sisters live.

No actually I have never been a marxist.

I consider the spreading of this vision of things as a direct danger to my safety in the territory I live in. I think that if another of your fellows commits a rape and murder of a girl here you will just defend him or her, and this would tend to establish that any person will be allowed to kill and walk free, if there is the same evidence against him as that against AK and RS, and this claim of a license to kill is just not remotely acceptable to me. And, that in one country there are prople who think to build a sanctuary for murderers where they “believe” other people are evil and corrupt, where idiots come here to insult officers in court, where people believe a foreigner should be considered a serial killer and a burglar without proof, this is not acceptable neither.

Hmm . . .

Forza Nuova 2007:

Forza Nuova 2008:

Forza Nuova 2011:

So Machiavelli, what do yo think of Forza Nuova?

 

[Fine]

2007

That damn inter-racial sex orgy among foreigners might have irritated FORZA NUOVA as much as the murder...

It disapproves of inter-racial sex and demands the 'immediate repatriation by force of every foreigner who is not in Italy for work useful to our nation.' " (December 4, 2007)

///

 

[Machiavelli]

So, a police officer acting in a official capacity collects photos on police time using police resources, and then sells them for personal profit, and you can't see why someone might want to look into that?

An authourised private photographer takes photos that are supposed to be kept available to be included in the investigation file, sells those photos privately to a company that is not covered by Italian jurisdiction - and you cant think why someone might look into whether those photos were ever made known to the police (.......)

There can't be a criminal investigation unless there is a crime to investigate.
The Procura can only do criminal investigations, and, for most crimes, only under certain conditions. For most crimes, by Italian law there must be a formal complaint within a specific time, after that the criminal charge ceases to exist.
The Procura (the prosecution office) cannot do non-criminal investigations. Proceedings on professional misconducts do not compete to prosecution offices.

 

[Malkmus]

The cat blood explained:

On that floor, with three other boys, James lives Silence, the boyfriend of Meredith on November 3 had told police: "Before leaving for Porto San Giorgio I gave the keys to my house asking Meredith to disinfect one of my two cats that had been wounded in one ear. " On November 6, the two keys were found in the room of Amanda Knox. Not just because it is a clue in the room of Stephen, one of the three roommates of Silence, have been discovered traces of blood. The four students have vowed to clean the stains left by the injured cat and 'whole house before leaving for the Bridge of the Dead holiday. "I do not know how to explain the traces of blood on the duvet of Stephen - said James Silence - I remember exactly that blood there 'was, and that Stephen had locked the room."

http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb.../11/14/quelle-chiavi-per-una-messinscena.html

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli, I realize you get overwhelmed with questions here, and I hope you take the time to respond to LashL's long reply to you, but I think the political situation in Italy as you see it may be what you can offer the greatest insight about if you would elaborate more on your beliefs.

I noticed you mentioned you were a protester at the Genoa G8 but you don't subscribe to a ideology that is remotely Marxist or Anarchist.
(...)

So Machiavelli, what do yo think of Forza Nuova?

This reasoning is nonsense. There is quite nothing in my ideology that points towards Forza Nuova.
My ideology cannot be a topic of discussion in this forum anyway.

Because I have nothing to hide I can tell anyway about my background. I have grown up most of my childhood in a city which has been ruled for the last 60 years by the Communist Party, then later by its evolutions as the present Democratic Party, and always by a leftist coalition.
The Region has always been administrated by a Communist- then leftist coalition too.
I have attended public primary schools in a "communist-style" environment, and in a politically organized society, I enjoyed very much my childhood in this environsment and teenager life, have a beautiful memory, a beautiful experience about it. I am probably strongly rooted in the cultural and social background of this part of Italy.
However, I have never been a marxist. I took part to a leftist environment, but politically I always belogned to the European Greens party (Alexander Langer, Daniel Cohn-Benedit) and never subscribed to marxist ideas. I have been more or less sympathetic to movements dealing with equivalents of the US Liberal issues (from Chomsky to Al Gore, U.S. intellectuals as Gore Vidal, some more ans dome less); I have been sympathetic with some Italian movements and political chatarcters as Gustavo Zagrebelski, Luigi De Magistris, subscribed to their ideas and practice. I am enthusiastic fan of intellectuals and journalists as Sabina Guzzanti and others. My grandmother's name was Atea ("atheist") and my grandfather's name was Libero ("free"), their fathers were railway men. I am a supporter of some Palestinian "terrorist" groups (but not religious groups, and do not subscribe to terrorist actions on civilians) and supporter of the "arab spring" democratic socialist movements; I am a pacifist but don't believe in non-violence; I worked as a photographer in places as south Lebanon but never supported armed actions nor human shields; I was a friend of Vittorio Arrigoni who was killed in the Gaza strip.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli, I realize you get overwhelmed with questions here, and I hope you take the time to respond to LashL's long reply to you, but I think the political situation in Italy as you see it may be what you can offer the greatest insight about if you would elaborate more on your beliefs.

....
You've described police beating you and even torturing fellow protesters at the G8. You had so much hostility to the police you even threatened/insulted their sisters and mothers when they interrogated you. You also say another time the police beat to death someone you knew, but despite all that you get deeply offended when foreigners criticize the Italian police. Despite all that you would rather endlessly demonize a 20 year old American girl who smoked pot (and liked sex and the Beatles) before admitting that the police were in error in prosecuting her.
.....

There is some other falsehood in what you say.

I do not demonize a "20 year old American". It's absolutely false. I consider her a common criminal, an occasional criminal, without having any demonizing intent.
I am even less interest in moralizing on her smoking pot or having sex: I can't care less of these private aspects, I never judge these things. And I don't think they are related to Amanda's personality style.
My intent is not even to obtain harsh punishment: my interest is toward truth.
On the other hand I am not a defender ot "Italian Police" an entity which, as for my way of thinking, does not really exist. I don't complain about people criticizing Italian police: I complain about people stating the false. Accusing and blaming wrong people, stating wrongly about facts, and offending victims. And also, I complain about offending the laws and principles that I believe, their sovereignity, and offending truth.

 

[Malkmus]

Amanda's teacher at the University of foreigners was shocked by her arrest:

Nov. 14 2007

"A student does not get in the front row for the event, and Amanda always did. It seemed like a nice girl and clean. He spoke in Seattle, his hometown, which is twinned with Perugia own. He had promised to do a job on his city, to talk about history and its attractions. But unfortunately failed to deliver. I remember a 'characteristic of the other girl was always on time, at 9 o'clock in the morning before anyone was there. And we knew that working late, as in the pub by Patrick Pierre. He gave guitar lessons to a girl of Kazakhstan and also in this activity was always on time, at seven in the evening. "

she liked the Italian language right, he had already learned so much and she was glad because they were provided for many other lessons. A pretty girl and clean, but unfortunately we know that behind the facade you can find surprises that are sick. "

http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb...ono-sconvolta-nervosa-lettera-alla-madre.html

 

[Machiavelli]

Custody and right of access are two different things. The authorities obviously create the investigation file and have custody of it. So if there is a leak, then they should investigate and not someone else who doesn't have custody.

Do you understand that if there is access there cannot be direct responsability on its content?
And do you understand that there can't be an investigation without a crime? You need a code number to investigate on something. What is the crime?

 

[Machiavelli]

LOL. You just spent the last week telling us that the publication of this picture couldn't be prejudicial because it was published in a UK tabloid and no one in Italy would ever consider such a foreign thing. And yet, Mignini's whole defamation case is based on a publication in a UK tabloid.

So, it's your belief that Knox might have been hit by the police and that even if she wasn't, that the alleged "defamatory" publication wasn't even published in Italy.

So, tell us what you think of Mignini's case against Knox's parents? Bogus, isn't it?

You are changing topic. We are not talking about Mignini's lawsuit against Knox's parents.
And you are changing my statements: you skipped the requirement of formal complaint within 90 days, as a basis for the existence of a crime.
And you skim that Mignini's lawsuit are against media, and the crimes that can be investigated are about publication of material; while instead you don't want to go after a journalist, you wish to investigate a source. Your attention points towards a different direction: you are not interested in prosecuting defamatory contant or prosecuting the illegitimate publication of trial files, you are instead focused on preventing the publication of things, you call for a punishment on the source of the revelation of files, the release of information to a third person.
You are, as by your choice and your claim, making claims on a different matter than Mignini's lawsuit.

 

[Skind]

There can't be a criminal investigation unless there is a crime to investigate.

I didn't say it had to be a criminal investigation, nor did I state it had to be done by the Procura. That was an entire invention by you and you alone.

I find it very hard to believe that no-one has management of the investigation file.

Only through there being no body authourised to manage the investigation file can there be no body that can make even the most precursory check on where and who the photo came from, even if the check is as simple as seeing if the photo is in the investigation file.

I find it very had to believe that the managing entity would have been entirely unaware of a picture appearing in several publications in the victims nation with a total readership of several million.

I find it very hard to believe that the entity responsible for authourising access to and photography of the crime scene would have been unaware of the publication of that photo, and that they would have had no power what-so-ever to question any personnel known to have taken photos to see if it was one of theirs.

In short, no-one in any role of relevant responsibility appears to have done anything to find out where the photo come from, and thusly no-one appears to have done anything that would confirm or disconfirm whether the release of the photo was illicit or legitimate.

For you arguement to hold water, there would have to be nobody in overall charge of police crime scene investigations, and there would have to be nobody in charge of managing investigation files.

I consider both of these requirement to be individually untenable, and outright impossible when taken together.

 

[Kaosium]

I never said that the PR Dude was solely responsible for bringing this case to the attention of the general public, that was not the case for me, in any case. I would have to know how each of these folks became involved, what the motivation was, what continued the efforts, what fueled their involvement. I don't believe it was money for any of those that you have listed. My opinion is that Marriott played a role in many of the high profile media reports that reached a large audience and received attention in other media with large audiences.

Sorry, I was responding more to other things I'd seen recently on this subject, notably yet another person at the Sun who implied hiring a PR firm means that Amanda must be guilty and that's the only reason people think otherwise. I just got to thinking about it and decided to make a list!

Of course the danger of making lists is forgetting people! Actually I didn't forget these two as much as I failed to type them as I got distracted and thought I had already:

Peter Van Sant and Mark Waterbury

I don't mind being called a liar by PMF. If they agreed with anything I said then I would start to worry.

The article describing Marriott's involvement was written in a business publication to serve as an advertisement for Marriott. For much of the case, Marriott's efforts were done pro bono. Like many others, it didn't take long for Marriott to see that an injustice occurred.

I think it would be great to see Marroitt's work on the Amanda Knox case cause his business to flourish.

When looking at the article on Marriott as an advertisement, it is important to keep in mind that advertisements are often exaggerated. When Billy Mayes came on TV to promote a product, I figured the gadget might work but nowhere near as well as Billy claimed.

Did Marriott greatly help Amanda's family deal with the media, essentially providing a buffer between them and relentless journalists? Yes. Did Marriott single-handedly save Amanda Knox. No.

That was more or less my point. Of course to some that article will seem like total vindication but I suppose there's nothing that could be done about that. He has a right to be proud of his involvement, especially if much of that work was pro-bono.

 

[Skind]

"You are changing topic. We are not talking about Mignini's lawsuit against Knox's parents. "

No, we are talking about where jurisdiction lines are drawn, and whether it's possible for material published outside those lines can still be considered to have influence within those lines.

Magnini appears to clearly think so, thus it's relevant to bring up his case as opposition to your unsupportable idea that influences stop stock still at jurisdiction lines.

Deal with it.

 

[Kaosium]

I seem to recall that the police found a witness to say that Mr. Lumumba's bar was closed on the night of the murder. Who is he or she? Will they be prosecuted for saying so? Will Mr. Lumumba bring a civil suit?

The last confirmation of the closure of the locale before said time is found in the declarations of a regular customer, one Vulcano Gerado Pasquale, the which interviewed at sommarie informazioni on the date 7 November 2007, referred to the fact that, on the night of the 1st November, he noticed, around 19.00, that the locale was closed, as well having noticed said circumstance much later on his return from the pizzeria.

Vulcano Gerado Pasquale was his name, and he was described elsewhere as a frequent patron of Patrick's establishment. The Telegraph also reported on the details of the Matteini Report if that is easier for some to read, the relevant passage is at the bottom of the piece.

 

[Machiavelli]

I didn't say it had to be a criminal investigation, nor did I state it had to be done by the Procura. That was an entire invention by you and you alone.

I find it very hard to believe that no-one has management of the investigation file.

(....)

I am discussing on Diocletus' argument by which the prosecution office has a responsability for not investigating the leak. This is the point to reject, I am only interested in talking about responsability of the judiciary and the Procura.

Unfortunately there are no impartial organs to conduct internal investigation on professional misconducts in the State Police. This agency doesn't have this kind of structure. The Carabinieri do have since they are militaries. Other professional groups are highly structured, organized and self-disciplined by their own codes (medicals, journalists, magistrates, lawyers), but the State Police is unfortunatly a political agency, and can be investigated only by political organs and syndacates.

 

[Machiavelli]

"You are changing topic. We are not talking about Mignini's lawsuit against Knox's parents. "

No, we are talking about where jurisdiction lines are drawn, and whether it's possible for material published outside those lines can still be considered to have influence within those lines.

Magnini appears to clearly think so, thus it's relevant to bring up his case as opposition to your unsupportable idea that influences stop stock still at jurisdiction lines.

Deal with it.

read the rest of my answer:

And you are changing my statements: you skipped the requirement of formal complaint within 90 days, as a basis for the existence of a crime.
And you skim that Mignini's lawsuit are against media, and the crimes that can be investigated are about publication of material; while instead you don't want to go after a journalist, you wish to investigate a source. Your attention points towards a different direction: you are not interested in prosecuting defamatory contant or prosecuting the illegitimate publication of trial files, you are instead focused on preventing the publication of things, you call for a punishment on the source of the revelation of files, the release of information to a third person.
You are, as by your choice and your claim, making claims on a different matter than Mignini's lawsuit.

and deal with it.

 

[Machiavelli]

....
In short, no-one in any role of relevant responsibility appears to have done anything to find out where the photo come from, and thusly no-one appears to have done anything that would confirm or disconfirm whether the release of the photo was illicit or legitimate.

For you arguement to hold water, there would have to be nobody in overall charge of police crime scene investigations, and there would have to be nobody in charge of managing investigation files.

I consider both of these requirement to be individually untenable, and outright impossible when taken together.

If you think there is someone automatically accountable - in "overall charge of " - on whatever happnes to be in the investigation files, than please find this entity or person. Or anyone in charge of all events that may take place the crime scene. Look up in the law to find who or what is it, then call me.

It seems to me you are quite unaccustomed to Italy.

 

[Malkmus]

Early report upon Rudy being captured:

Nov. 21 2007

Shortly after Rudy is in a jail cell in Koblenz. Interpol agents who meet him murmur: "In Italy I had problems with a girl." For some it is already a confession

The squad re-read the file of Rudy. Only five days before the discovery of Meredith's body was caught in a nursery in Milan with a knife in the kitchen of the school and took his white laptop. "I was at the station when a South American offered me a bed for 50 euros - had told the police in Milan - I did come here." Had denounced him and let him go and then stop it again two days later with a group of drug dealers and some Africans' drug in his pocket. From the Milan Furniture are now know that long ago had noticed in the most fashionable nightclubs

http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb...meredith-preso-il-quarto-uomo-sono-stato.html

So Rudy was stopped two days after the Milan nursery incident for drug possession? Or am I misreading this?

 

[RoseMontague]

Unfortunately there are no impartial organs to conduct internal investigation on professional misconducts in the State Police. This agency doesn't have this kind of structure. The Carabinieri do have since they are militaries. Other professional groups are highly structured, organized and self-disciplined by their own codes (medicals, journalists, magistrates, lawyers), but the State Police is unfortunatly a political agency, and can be investigated only by political organs and syndacates.

I agree with you that this is unfortunate. It is rather sad and pathetic as well.

What a racket.

 

[Machiavelli]

I agree with you that this is unfortunate. It is rather sad and pathetic as well.

What a racket.

Though, Italy has problems much more sad and serious than this one.