Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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You are showing that you are incapable of understanding what he said in his speech.

That's quite an irony overload considering the fact that you can't personally understand a simple DEFINITION of an electrical discharge *IN* a plasma. I'm sure you'd NEVER understand something as complex as a whole series of issues related to a book you've never read RC.

He stated "It is difficult to find theoretical papers on the low density regions which are correct.".
He is not saying that all papers (which would include his own!) on the low density regions were incorrect - he is saying that he only finds that there are a few correct papers.

The "few that were correct" according to Alfven were based on 'circuit/particle' theory RC, not the B orientation.

Alfvén never rejects MR in 'all current carrying environments'.

Yes he did. He did so on several occasions. He also made it unnecessary in current carrying environments since his double layer paper addresses such energy transfers *WITHOUT* 'magnetic reconnection', meaning it's DOA.
 
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Bah!

"Running" in this case requires having read some of Alfven's material and having some concept of "circuit" theory, electrical discharges in plasmas, and the E orientation to plasma physics theory. Since neither of them has read Alfven's book "Cosmic Plasma" for themselves, they both remain in staunch denial of OBVIOUS things, like the COMPLETE IRRELEVANCY of "magnetic reconnection" theory in "current carrying" plasmas.
Nah.

Crawling, in this case, would require reading, understanding, and remembering some of the basic facts about electromagnetism.

Getting hung up on Alfvén's writing about plasma without understanding the first thing about electromagnetism is sure to fail, and we all appreciate Michael Mozina's continuing efforts to demonstrate that failure.

....they don't even understand the basics of electromagnetic theory.
And you blame us for breaking those irony meters?

....DAMN THING .... INDUCTANCE .... *AVOIDING* .... INDUCTANCE .... *INDUCTANCE* .... MENTION .... INDUCTANCE .... MISLABELING .... INDUCTANCE ....

The magnetic lines have no beginning and no ending. They don't "disconnect" or break anywhere along the line. This is BASIC ELECTROMAGNETIC THEORY 101 boys and girls.
No, that's basic electromagnetic theory as shouted by some guy who claims to have read an electromagnetism textbook 30 years ago but can't remember its title, author(s), or any of its content.

It's remarkable how little Michael Mozina remembers. Even more remarkably, most of what little he remembers is wrong.

More importantly I also spent the time to show everyone that B fields have no beginning or ending.
More accurately: Michael Mozina spent time repeating that physics-for-poets interpretation of Gauss's Law for magnetism.

That wouldn't have done any harm, except he added his own incorrect interpretation:

They don't "disconnect" nor "reconnect" or they would have beginnings and endings and violate Gause's law of magnetism. I carefully showed Clinger that his so called "reconnection" equations are based upon "inductance", the STANDARD way to pass energy from the magnetic field to any particle.
Had Michael Mozina remembered anything from Electromagnetism 101, he'd have known that Gauss's Law for Magnetism says the net magnetic flux through any smooth closed surface is zero.

It's hard to blame Michael Mozina for misinterpreting Gauss's law, because he doesn't even understand the concept of magnetic flux:

Michael Mozina said magnetic flux is a euphemism for field-aligned currents. After doubling down on that and digging a very deep hole, he tried to climb out with this explanation:

I understand the difference on *PAPER* Clinger, but when I wrote that line you decided to build a federal case over, I was specifically thinking of that first paper by Priest that attempted to 'dumb down' an entire current carrying event to a "magnetic flux' event. That's all I meant by that particular sentence.
:eek:

In post #4063, I outlined a proof that
  • Gauss's Law for Magnetism holds for the magnetic field of a current-carrying rod,
  • so it holds for the magnetic field generated by four current-carrying rods,
  • so it holds for the magnetic fields in the experiment I've been suggesting for almost a year now,
  • which demonstrates magnetic reconnection,
  • so Gauss's Law for Magnetism is compatible with magnetic reconnection.
Michael Mozina has not been able to identify any flaw in that outlined proof, not has he been able to fill in any of its details, nor has he been able to express any scientific argument against the magnetic reconnection that occurs in that experiment...

...which is why he's given up on trying to use or to demonstrate his knowledge of Electromagnetism 101, and has gone back to shouting his misinterpretations of electromagnetism and of Alfvén's holy texts.
 
In post #4063, I outlined a proof that

[*]Gauss's Law for Magnetism holds for the magnetic field of a current-carrying rod,

[*]so it holds for the magnetic field generated by four current-carrying rods,

[*]so it holds for the magnetic fields in the experiment I've been suggesting for almost a year now,

[*]which demonstrates magnetic reconnection,

Bzzzt. It clearly demonstrates "inductance". You're still in hard core denial of the fact that we can swap out your "air" or your "vacuum" with various different types of materials and demonstrate conclusively that "inductance did it", not "magnetic reconnection"! What you've demonstrated is that INDUCTANCE is compatible with Gauss's laws, but of course we all know that, except you evidently. :)
 
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That's quite an irony overload considering the fact that you can't personally understand a simple DEFINITION of an electrical discharge *IN* a plasma.
That's quite an irony overload considering the fact that you personally are continuously quote mining a simple DEFINITION of an electrical discharge that is never *IN* a plasma:
Anthony Peratt's definition of electrical discharge.
An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium.
And denying the fact that Peratt never gives examples of or discusses 'electrical discharges in plasma':
And still cannort find any textbook on 'electrical discharges in plasma'
The "few that were correct" according to Alfven were based on 'circuit/particle' theory RC, not the B orientation.
Alfvén never lists the "few that were correct" in his speech and so you have no idea what they contained, MM.

Yes he did. He did so on several occasions. He also made it unnecessary in current carrying environments since his double layer paper addresses such energy transfers *WITHOUT* 'magnetic reconnection', meaning it's DOA.
No he did not reject MR in 'all current carrying environments'. He never did on any occasion.

Try reading what he wrote instead of projecting your fantasies on him. His book only talks about the surface of a finite volume not having current through it.
  • This allows current outside of the surface.
  • This allows current inside the surface.
  • The criteria is that current does not cross the surface.
    (as he states - the perpendicular component of the curl B is zero at every point of the surface).
If this is too hared for you to understand then think about a current that is flowing along the surface. At no point does it cross the surface. Thus Alfvén's criteria is met and MR can be applied.

It would be insane to be looking at non-current carrying environments in a book about plasma physics because plasmas can carry currents :jaw-dropp !
FYI, Michael Mozina: Plasmas are ionized gases. They are always conductive. They can always carry currents.

You are deluded about his double layer paper. It was about solar flares only. It was a valid treatment of solar flares using a circuit model. The fact that it did not use MR means nothing about MR. Using a circuit model was an approximation that ignored the details of the flare and cannot describe such things as the topology of the EM fields in the flare. Even the location of the flare at the top of the coronal loop was an observation, not a part of the model.

The advantage of using MR is that you get matches with the detailed observations: Observational Signatures of Magnetic Reconnection as of 2003
 
Here's the other "flaw" in your "proof":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field#B-field_lines_never_end

B-field lines never end
Main article: Gauss's law for magnetism

Field lines are a useful way to represent any vector field and often reveal sophisticated properties of fields quite simply. One important property of the B-field revealed this way is that magnetic B field lines neither start nor end (mathematically, B is a solenoidal vector field); a field line either extends to infinity or wraps around to form a closed curve.[nb 8] To date no exception to this rule has been found. (See magnetic monopole below.)

Magnetic field lines exit a magnet near its north pole and enter near its south pole, but inside the magnet B-field lines continue through the magnet from the south pole back to the north.[nb 9] If a B-field line enters a magnet somewhere it has to leave somewhere else; it is not allowed to have an end point. Magnetic poles, therefore, always come in N and S pairs. Cutting a magnet in half results in two separate magnets each with both a north and a south pole.

More formally, since all the magnetic field lines that enter any given region must also leave that region, subtracting the 'number'[nb 10] of field lines that enter the region from the number that exit gives identically zero. Mathematically this is equivalent to:

a5a8bcf0e7dbd05711b8888171ad67bb.png


where the integral is a surface integral over the closed surface S (a closed surface is one that completely surrounds a region with no holes to let any field lines escape). Since dA points outward, the dot product in the integral is positive for B-field pointing out and negative for B-field pointing in.

There is also a corresponding differential form of this equation covered in Maxwell's equations below.
 
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a compromise that should satisfy Michael Mozina

Michael Mozina's been asking us to meet him in the middle. That sounds fair....

In post #4063, I outlined a proof that

[*]Gauss's Law for Magnetism holds for the magnetic field of a current-carrying rod,

[*]so it holds for the magnetic field generated by four current-carrying rods,

[*]so it holds for the magnetic fields in the experiment I've been suggesting for almost a year now,

[*]which demonstrates magnetic reconnection,

Bzzzt. It clearly demonstrates "inductance". You're still in hard core denial of the fact that we can swap out your "air" or your "vacuum" with various different types of materials and demonstrate conclusively that "inductance did it", not "magnetic reconnection"! What you've demonstrated is that INDUCTANCE is compatible with Gauss's laws, but of course we all know that, except you evidently. :)
Clearly you have your own idiosyncratic definition of magnetic reconnection.

By your definition, none of the scientific experiments that demonstrate what everyone else refers to as magnetic reconnection succeed in demonstrating whatever it is that you define as magnetic reconnection.

You also object to the name.

I suggest we all agree on the following compromise:
  • Scientists will continue to use the scientifically accepted definition of magnetic reconnection, and will continue to refer to it as magnetic reconnection.
  • Michael Mozina will continue to define whatever it is he thinks he's talking about in whatever way he likes, and will refer to it by whatever phrase he prefers: "current reconnection", "circuit reconnection", "Mozina reconnection", "INDUCTION", ...
That compromise will make everyone happy, won't impede the progress of science or Mozinaism or Alfvénism, and won't confuse anyone (except those who try to understand what Michael Mozina is saying, and they deserve it).
 
Cool! Just out of curiosity, did you tell him that electrical discharges are impossible in a plasma? :)
Just because of basic physics, electrical discharges are impossible in a plasma :jaw-dropp!
I reminded him that
  • his definition of electrical discharge states that electrical discharges are impossible in a plasma
  • that he never gives examples of or discusses 'electrical discharges in a plasma' implies that electrical discharges are impossible in a plasma.
 
Clearly you have your own idiosyncratic definition of magnetic reconnection.

Er, no, that would be you creating your own custom lingo. You freely admitted that your freshman textbook doesn't use the term 'magnetic reconnection' and your permeability factor is related to INDUCTANCE, not "reconnection' per distance unit! Worse yet, you've never produced a published work that actually claimed your so called "experiment" demonstrates anything OTHER THAN inductance! In fact by changing the materials from air, to vacuum to OTHER MATERIALS, we can CONFIRM it's related to INDUCTANCE, not "reconnection".
 
Michael Mozina: Magnetic reconnection does not involve field lines ending

There is another bit of repeated ignorance from you.
sol invictus's post is clear enough:
Michael, we've discussed this issue many times before. It's true that B-field lines cannot start or end. Nevertheless, they can reconnect, so long as they do so at a point where the magnitude of the B field is zero. This does not violate Maxwell's equations, and it does not require magnetic monopoles. In fact we've several times given you explicit examples of magnetic fields that solve Maxwell's equations and reconnect.

Years ago I gave you the example of contour lines on a map. Those can't begin or end either - but they can reconnect, for instance at a saddle point (a pass between two hills) during an earthquake (i.e. as the topography changes with time).
His 'years ago' post may have been on 5th March 2008 but not in reply to you
Yes.

Consider two hills in a plain. Between the hills there's a mountain "pass" - a saddle point. Now draw the contour lines, focusing on the saddle. Notice that the contour lines form an X at the saddle.

Now pick two points symmetrically on either side of the saddle, partway up the slopes of the hills. Those are not connected by a contour line. But now raise the ground at the saddle until it becomes the highest point (higher than the hills, if necessary). Now those two points are connected by a contour line - they have "reconnected".

As you should be able see, magnetic reconnection does not involve field lines ending. So hopefully we will see no more of this nonsense from you - unless you want to prove that you are incapable of learning quite simple things :) !

Also you need to read Dungey again, e.g. "Neutral Point Discharge Theory of Solar Flares. a Reply to Cowling's Criticism" where the neutral point is a neutral point in the magnetic field, i.e. where B is zero.

Neutral Points in a Magnetic Field
As a result of two magnetic fields acting at the same place, the resultant field has a special feature. At a particular point, if the compass needle does not point in any particular direction, then there is no net magnetic field at the point. Such a point is called Neutral point or the Null point.
A neutral point is a point where the resultant magnetic field is zero.
 
As soon as sol has answered my other questions that are directly related to this topic, I'll be happy to continue my discussion with sol. If he's willing to apply his "hills and saddles" concepts to the flow of "current", then I'm sure we'll get along famously.
 
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Michael Mozina quoted an excerpt from Wikipedia that contains an actual equation. How cute.

Here's the other "flaw" in your "proof":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field#B-field_lines_never_end

B-field lines never end
Main article: Gauss's law for magnetism

Field lines are a useful way to represent any vector field and often reveal sophisticated properties of fields quite simply. One important property of the B-field revealed this way is that magnetic B field lines neither start nor end (mathematically, B is a solenoidal vector field); a field line either extends to infinity or wraps around to form a closed curve.[nb 8] To date no exception to this rule has been found. (See magnetic monopole below.)

Magnetic field lines exit a magnet near its north pole and enter near its south pole, but inside the magnet B-field lines continue through the magnet from the south pole back to the north.[nb 9] If a B-field line enters a magnet somewhere it has to leave somewhere else; it is not allowed to have an end point. Magnetic poles, therefore, always come in N and S pairs. Cutting a magnet in half results in two separate magnets each with both a north and a south pole.

More formally, since all the magnetic field lines that enter any given region must also leave that region, subtracting the 'number'[nb 10] of field lines that enter the region from the number that exit gives identically zero. Mathematically this is equivalent to:

a5a8bcf0e7dbd05711b8888171ad67bb.png


where the integral is a surface integral over the closed surface S (a closed surface is one that completely surrounds a region with no holes to let any field lines escape). Since dA points outward, the dot product in the integral is positive for B-field pointing out and negative for B-field pointing in.

There is also a corresponding differential form of this equation covered in Maxwell's equations below.
Michael Mozina says he's found a "flaw" in my "proof". According to the rules of mathematical and scientific discourse, he is now obliged to identify the flaw in my proof, which proceeds by proving the differential form that, according to the text Michael Mozina quoted, is equivalent to the equation Michael Mozina quoted above.

For easy reference, here's the proof outline I gave earlier, followed by the calculation that confirms that the experiment I've been suggesting satisfies the differential form of Gauss's Law for Magnetism:

When you calculate its divergence, you will find that Gauss's Law for Magnetism is satisfied. If you vary the current slowly throughout the experiment, the time derivative will be negligible. By superposition, you may then conclude that Gauss's Law is satisfied throughout the experiment I've been suggesting. Since that freshman-level exercise also demonstrates (slow!) magnetic reconnection, you will have proved to yourself that magnetic reconnection is consistent with Maxwell's equations.

If you have trouble calculating the divergence, I suggest you use cylindrical coordinates (with the rod at r=0) and consider

[latex]
\[
V_\delta(r, \theta, z) = \left\{ \langle r^\prime, \theta^\prime, z^\prime \rangle
\; | \;
|r-r^\prime| \leq \delta \; \& \;
|\theta-\theta^\prime| \leq \delta \; \& \;
|z-z^\prime| \leq \delta \right\}
\]
[/latex]​

for small δ > 0.

Reality Check has been trying to give you an even more basic hint:
Starting from the above, plus Reality Check's hint and the five equations I quoted in an earlier message: Given any r > 0, define

[latex]
\[
S^{(r+)}_\delta(r, \theta, z) = \left\{ \langle r + \delta, \theta^\prime, z^\prime \rangle
\; : \;
|\theta-\theta^\prime| \leq \delta \; \& \;
|z-z^\prime| \leq \delta \right\}
\]
[/latex]​
[latex]
\[
S^{(r-)}_\delta(r, \theta, z) = \left\{ \langle r - \delta, \theta^\prime, z^\prime \rangle
\; : \;
|\theta-\theta^\prime| \leq \delta \; \& \;
|z-z^\prime| \leq \delta \right\}
\]
[/latex]​
[latex]
\[
S^{(\theta+)}_\delta(r, \theta, z) = \left\{ \langle r^\prime, \theta + \delta, z^\prime \rangle
\; : \;
|r-r^\prime| \leq \delta \; \& \;
|z-z^\prime| \leq \delta \right\}
\]
[/latex]​
[latex]
\[
S^{(\theta-)}_\delta(r, \theta, z) = \left\{ \langle r^\prime, \theta - \delta, z^\prime \rangle
\; : \;
|r-r^\prime| \leq \delta \; \& \;
|z-z^\prime| \leq \delta \right\}
\]
[/latex]​
[latex]
\[
S^{(z+)}_\delta(r, \theta, z) = \left\{ \langle r^\prime, \theta^\prime, z + \delta \rangle
\; : \;
|r-r^\prime| \leq \delta \; \& \;
|\theta-\theta^\prime| \leq \delta \right\}
\]
[/latex]​
[latex]
\[
S^{(z-)}_\delta(r, \theta, z) = \left\{ \langle r^\prime, \theta^\prime, z - \delta \rangle
\; : \;
|r-r^\prime| \leq \delta \; \& \;
|\theta-\theta^\prime| \leq \delta \right\}
\]
[/latex]​
[latex]
\begin{align*}
S_\delta(r, \theta, z) =
& S^{(r+)}_\delta(r, \theta, z) \cup
S^{(r-)}_\delta(r, \theta, z) \\
&\cup
S^{(\theta+)}_\delta(r, \theta, z) \cup
S^{(\theta-)}_\delta(r, \theta, z) \\
&\cup
S^{(z+)}_\delta(r, \theta, z) \cup
S^{(z-)}_\delta(r, \theta, z)
\end{align*}
[/latex]​

For the magnetic field of a single current-carrying rod (which Michael Mozina has been unable to calculate or even to describe, so I'm not going to give that away here) and any δ such that 0 < δ < r:

[latex]
\begin{align*}
\oint_{S_\delta(r,\theta,z)} \hbox{{\bf B}} \cdot d \hbox{{\bf A}} =
& \int_{S^{(r+)}_\delta(r,\theta,z)} \hbox{{\bf B}} \cdot d \hbox{{\bf A}} &+
\int_{S^{(r-)}_\delta(r,\theta,z)} \hbox{{\bf B}} \cdot d \hbox{{\bf A}} \\
&+ \int_{S^{(\theta+)}_\delta(r,\theta,z)} \hbox{{\bf B}} \cdot d \hbox{{\bf A}} &+
\int_{S^{(\theta-)}_\delta(r,\theta,z)} \hbox{{\bf B}} \cdot d \hbox{{\bf A}} \\
&+ \int_{S^{(z+)}_\delta(r,\theta,z)} \hbox{{\bf B}} \cdot d \hbox{{\bf A}} &+
\int_{S^{(z-)}_\delta(r,\theta,z)} \hbox{{\bf B}} \cdot d \hbox{{\bf A}} \\
= & \; 0
\end{align*}
[/latex]​
where I left out the next-to-last step as an exercise for Michael Mozina.

Taking the limit as δ goes to zero (which is trivial) yields the differential form of Gauss's Law for Magnetism. By superposition, Gauss's Law holds for the entire experiment.

Since magnetic reconnection does indeed occur within the experiment, and Michael Mozina's denials of that fact are based on nothing more than his total lack of understanding of magnetic reconnection, this shows that magnetic reconnection is consistent with Gauss's Law for Magnetism, despite repeated protests from people who literally do not know what they're talking about.
 
Since magnetic reconnection does indeed occur within the experiment,

When you provide me with a PUBLISHED work that makes the claim that your particular INDUCTANCE experiment is an example of "magnetic reconnection", I'll consider doing your math assignment, and not a MINUTE before then. :)
 
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As soon as sol has answered my other questions that are directly related to this topic, I'll be happy to continue my discussion with sol. If he's willing to apply his "hills and saddles" concepts to the flow of "current", then I'm sure we'll get along famously.
sol should not answer for the simple reason that the question is inane.
There are no "flows of current" involved with the process of magnetic field lines reconnecting in his example. There are only the magnetic field lines. There is no current.

To make this clearer: Michael Mozina: Magnetic reconnection field lines reconnecting does not involve field lines ending!
Read his example - no electric currents, just magntic field lines.

So what questions have you about the concept of magnetic fields reconnecting?
It is really simple as anyone who has ever read a map can see (magnetic field lines are contour lines for magnetic fields)
  • There is a magnetic field with a saddle point.
  • Two points to either side of and above the saddle are not connected.
  • Let the magnetic field change so that the saddle rises.
  • The two points become connected by magnetic field lines.
  • Scientists say that the two two points have "reconnected".
 
As soon as sol has answered my other questions that are directly related to this topic, I'll be happy to continue my discussion with sol. If he's willing to apply his "hills and saddles" concepts to the flow of "current", then I'm sure we'll get along famously.
:p

If you knew anything at all about electromagnetism, you wouldn't have written that. (The current flux through a closed surface can be nonzero.)

ETA:
None of my questions were inane and all of them relate to this topic.
:dl:

When you provide me with a PUBLISHED work that makes the claim that your particular INDUCTANCE experiment is an example of "magnetic reconnection", I'll consider doing your math assignment, and not a MINUTE before then. :)
Nor would you be able to do the math a MINUTE after, or an HOUR later, or a DAY later, or a YEAR later.

You never try to do the math. That's why you can't do the math.

That's the root cause of your total ignorance of electromagnetism, which is the root cause of your denial of magnetic reconnection.
 
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:p

If you knew anything at all about electromagnetism, you wouldn't have written that. (The current flux through a closed surface can be nonzero.)


Nor would you be able to do the math a MINUTE after, or an HOUR later, or DAY later, or a YEAR later.

You never try to do the math. That's why you can't do the math.

That's the root cause of your total ignorance of electromagnetism, which is the root cause of your denial of magnetic reconnection.

What a pity that you are back to attacking the messenger. I guess you got angry when your whole INDUCTANCE experiment blew up in your face eh? What's going to happen when when swap out your vacuum with other materials Clinger? More INDUCTANCE? Less inductance? Both depending on the material?
 
What a pity that you are back to attacking the messenger. I guess you got angry when your whole INDUCTANCE experiment blew up in your face eh? What's going to happen when when swap out your vacuum with other materials Clinger? More INDUCTANCE? Less inductance? Both depending on the material?
No competent person has ever even suggested that the experiment I've been describing blew up in my face.

Only one experiment has ever blown up in my face, and that was in an organic chemistry lab when I was a clumsy freshman. (No harm done, but I did get to take an extra shower that day.) The electromagnetism experiments were considerably safer than the chemistry experiments.
 
Nevermind... thought this was the sun-made-of-iron thread.


There has been some claim that the electric Sun conjecture is somehow objectively related to the solid/rigid iron surface/core conjecture. But every effort made to get a reasonable description of that connection has been met with a flippant dismissal, an ambiguous suggestion that Birkeland said it (which is untrue), or ignorance.
 
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