Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[eeyore1954]

this is more than a'mistake'.
they knowingly made alse statements.
in canada, we call that 'fraud'.
perhaps that word has a different meaning to americna capitalists.

Guilty without a trial perhaps the word justice has a different meaniing in Canada.

A documentary called Inside Job saying something is not proof of someone making knowingly false statements.
It may be a very factual documentary or it may be another Loose Change. To someone just watching that also seemed pretty convincing.

 

[Segnosaur]

From what I understand, the ratings agencies are hiding behind the "freedom of speech" argument.

I doubt very much this argument would hold any water in court.

Maybe, maybe not.

Remember, the rating agencies weren't the one's who were actually selling the derivatives, so its not as easy to show "fraud" in their case.

 

[bikerdruid]

Guilty without a trial perhaps the word justice has a different meaniing in Canada.

A documentary called Inside Job saying something is not proof of someone making knowingly false statements.
It may be a very factual documentary or it may be another Loose Change. To someone just watching that also seemed pretty convincing.

there is certainly enough evidence of wrong-doing that it should be seriously investigated.
why are americans so reluctant to do that?
surely the innocent have nothing to fear from 'justice'.

 

[eeyore1954]

there is certainly enough evidence of wrong-doing that it should be seriously investigated.
why are americans so reluctant to do that?
surely the innocent have nothing to fear from 'justice'.

I agree completely they should be investigated and investigations are underway as we speak. As of now no fraud has been uncovered.

 

[Brainster]

Do you know THAT THIS CAN'T HAPPEN IN CANADA? Do you know why? Because they are not idiots like we are. Their financial policy isn't built solely on caveat emptor and therefore whatever the banks and brokers can get away with is okay. Hell, not only is it okay but the American people will back their own sodomy. Screw us good and we will reward you handsomely. And we did. No dinner, no kiss we just picked up the check.

Oops!

Canada's housing market is in a bubble that's set to burst and prices could plunge by as much as 25 per cent, a major independent research firm warns.

“Housing valuations have lost all touch with fundamentals and household debt is at a record high,” economists at the research consultancy Capital Economics say in their most recent Canada Economic Outlook, issued Wednesday.

 

[Segnosaur]

A documentary called Inside Job saying something is not proof of someone making knowingly false statements.
It may be a very factual documentary or it may be another Loose Change. To someone just watching that also seemed pretty convincing.

Well, keep in mind that it was me and not bikerdruid who mentioned the movie Inside Job.

And the movie "Inside Job" is certainly not another "Loose Change". Apart from the fact that its won multiple awards (OK, that doesn't necessarily guarantee accuracy, but its a start), the facts in it seem to match up with information I've obtained from other sources.

More of a discussion of the movie is here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-217389.html

 

[Brainster]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/263894ea68b654edf9.jpg[/qimg]

Thanks JJ, you and I don't get along much as we have some critical disagreements but I appreciate this picture. This is what we are talking about.

Hundreds of "anecdotal" signs later, you find one you agree with and suddenly it's not anecdotal?

Dude, you're on the same side of the fence as JJ. That doesn't cause little alarm bells to go off in your head?

 

[eeyore1954]

Well, keep in mind that it was me and not bikerdruid who mentioned the movie Inside Job.

And the movie "Inside Job" is certainly not another "Loose Change". Apart from the fact that its won multiple awards (OK, that doesn't necessarily guarantee accuracy, but its a start), the facts in it seem to match up with information I've obtained from other sources.

More of a discussion of the movie is here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-217389.html

Thank you for the link.

 

[Neally]

Remember, the rating agencies weren't the one's who were actually selling the derivatives, so its not as easy to show "fraud" in their case.

I understand the role of the rating agencies. If they knowingly issued bogus ratings that is clearly fraud. Proving that is a different matter. From what source can you cite that they are claiming freedom of speech as their defense?

 

[Segnosaur]

Remember, the rating agencies weren't the one's who were actually selling the derivatives, so its not as easy to show "fraud" in their case.

I understand the role of the rating agencies. If they knowingly issued bogus ratings that is clearly fraud. Proving that is a different matter. From what source can you cite that they are claiming freedom of speech as their defense?

The claim of "freedom of speech" was from the movie Inside Job.

 

[Brainster]

I doubt very much this argument would hold any water in court.

About as much water as a sieve:

In a case alleging that inflated ratings on risky mortgages led to investment losses, U.S. District Judge Shira Scheindlin said on Wednesday that ratings on notes sold privately to a group of investors were not "matters of public concern" deserving broad protection under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

The Manhattan judge said investors may pursue their lawsuit accusing Moody's, S&P and Morgan Stanley (MS.N), which marketed the notes, of issuing false and misleading statements about the notes, which were backed by subprime mortgages and other debt.

 

[respect]

Hundreds of "anecdotal" signs later, you find one you agree with and suddenly it's not anecdotal?

Dude, you're on the same side of the fence as JJ. That doesn't cause little alarm bells to go off in your head?

That is how we know he is a true "skeptic" and everyone else is biased.

 

[Ziggurat]

Hundreds of "anecdotal" signs later, you find one you agree with and suddenly it's not anecdotal?

Well, that's really no different from ignoring polls until he finds some he likes.

 

[Neally]

Thanks for the link Brainster.

From the article:

The next month, though, the agencies were largely spared in the Obama administration's proposed financial regulation overhaul, which called for increased disclosure and oversight, but would not change the issuer-pays ratings model.

Which once again highlights the fact that the OWS protestors aren't about trying to fix anything by identifying the real issues and people that need to have pressure put on them to make changes. No, it's more fun to sit around drumming and demand more money and jobs.

 

[bookitty]

I agree completely they should be investigated and investigations are underway as we speak. As of now no fraud has been uncovered.

5 minute Google search:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/JPMorgan-to-pay-1536M-to-apf-2178089331.html?x=0

http://www.newser.com/article/d9qff...harges-over-complex-mortgage-investments.html

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/SEC-accuses-Goldman-Sachs-of-apf-1523020722.html?x=0

http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Bank-of-America-Ken-Lewis-Facing-Civil-Fraud-Charges-83587092.html

http://www.whistleblower-claims.com/whistleblower-news/aig-accused-of-bailout-fraud.php

 

[Segnosaur]

Thanks for the link Brainster.

From the article:
The next month, though, the agencies were largely spared in the Obama administration's proposed financial regulation overhaul, which called for increased disclosure and oversight, but would not change the issuer-pays ratings model.

Even worse than that... from what I remember, the Obama administration did set up a group to overlook the financial ratings agencies but didn't do anything to fund them. (This is by memory though, which might be a bit fuzzy.)

 

[Segnosaur]

5 minute Google search:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/JPMorgan-to-pay-1536M-to-apf-2178089331.html?x=0
http://www.newser.com/article/d9qff...harges-over-complex-mortgage-investments.html
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/SEC-accuses-Goldman-Sachs-of-apf-1523020722.html?x=0
http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Bank-of-America-Ken-Lewis-Facing-Civil-Fraud-Charges-83587092.html

http://www.whistleblower-claims.com/whistleblower-news/aig-accused-of-bailout-fraud.php

Minor point... that last link actually points to fraud that occurred after the banking collapse (where some of the banks tried to get more of the bailout money than they should have) rather than fraud associated with the derivative markets themselves.

Still corrupt though (and indicative that many of those heading banks have "not learned their lessons"). Just not corruption associated with the initial derivative problems.

 

[timhau]

ya gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet.
capitalist civilization had become corrupt and immoral.
the current state of affairs in the western world are glaring evidence of this fact.
if you deny this, you are deluding yourself.
people are pissed off at the growing divide between rich and poor.
revolution is required.

whether there is violence involved is all up to you and your kind.

Uncle Lenin would be proud of you. Now Australia can start making some money on exporting Kangaroos to serve in your juries.

 

[Brainster]

Who says they can't agree on anything?

On Oct 13th, the General Assembly of Liberty Square passed a resolution to limit drumming times to 2 hours a day, between the hours of 11 and 5 as part of a good neighbor policy.

Problem solved? No:

Many drummers rejected this. A group of mediators began to work with the drummers and reached an agreement that they would instead drum for 4 hours per day, from 12pm - 2pm and 4pm - 6pm.

Problem solved? Negative:

As a result, drumming dropped from consistent 10 + hours a day, but is occurring more than the 2 hours consensed to by the General Assembly, and more then the 4 hours consensed to by the drummers.

And the beat goes on....

 

[Neally]

Who says they can't agree on anything?

Problem solved? No:

Problem solved? Negative:

And the beat goes on....

Sounds like the drummers should organize a protest against the OWS protest. OWS could then counter protest against the drummers protest. Dad really needs to show up and tell the kids to stop fighting.