Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

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Why would you want middle ground with an evil system of no redeeming features?
Well, I disagree with you, it's true that capitalism can be a terribly corrupting system but it's not irredeemable. Look at Norway, they've held on to the good of capitalism and socialism. They rate high in freedom.
 
There is a big difference between being marginalized in the media and taking a crap in someone's doorway. The Tea Party people at least had the decency to protest then go home and organize. I don't understand what occupying a park and disrupting the lives of working people has to do with wrong-doing on Wall Street. Fight Wall Street, overthrow Wall Street but don't tell me that movie night with pajamas and popcorn is doing either.
I don't condone crime or uncivil behavior but I reject your broad brush strokes. As for their methods America was founded on cicil disobedience. If we champion mobs who threw tea in a harbor, if blacks could shut down a bus service or students sit in against the Vietnam war then we ought to extend a little bit of that here.
 
I don't condone crime or uncivil behavior but I reject your broad brush strokes. As for their methods America was founded on cicil disobedience. If we champion mobs who threw tea in a harbor, if blacks could shut down a bus service or students sit in against the Vietnam war then we ought to extend a little bit of that here.

The Sons of Liberty had a goal when they dumped the tea in Boston Harbor. They had an agenda, a goal and a plan. The civil rights protestors had an agenda, two goals and many plans. The Vietname War protestors had a goal. So please tell me what they have in common with a bunch of people who do nothing other than hold signs and say they are mad? Whenever has change come about that way?
 
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The Sons of Liberty had a goal when they dumped the tea in Boston Harbor. They had an agenda, a goal and a plan. The civil rights protestors had an agenda, two goals and many plans. The Vietname War protestors had a goal. So please tell me what they have in common with...
Sounds identical to me. The goal is to end the corruption on Wall Street. To increase jobs and salaries of workers.

a bunch of people who do nothing other than hold signs and say they are mad?
There's your problem. You expose your bias so easily. You clearly see only what you want to see. Hear what you want to hear. If you refuse to consider that there might be some legitimate points of view (and there are a hell of a lot of them) then of course you will bear them nothing but contempt.

Whenever has change come about that way?
BTW: I grew up a conservative in a conservative household. My father spewed the same rhetoric at the protestors then that you are doing now. "Dirty hippy." "Trying to get laid." "Lazy won't work". "Stoned, drunk, peeing on lawns".

The rhetoric of the right hasn't changed but they made a difference. I don't know if OWC will make a change or not. I do know that the status quo can't last. People can't get poorer and poorer while the richest 1% get richer and richer.
 
Sounds identical to me. The goal is to end the corruption on Wall Street. To increase jobs and salaries of workers.

The goal of OWS is not to end corruption on Wall Street.

There's your problem. You expose your bias so easily. You clearly see only what you want to see. Hear what you want to hear. If you refuse to consider that there might be some legitimate points of view (and there are a hell of a lot of them) then of course you will bear them nothing but contempt.

Of course there is some legitimate points of view. And? So is this just about points of discussion, which is fine but in no way has anything to do with what the American Revolution, the Progressive Movement, and the Civil Rights Movement was about.

BTW: I grew up a conservative in a conservative household. My father spewed the same rhetoric at the protestors then that you are doing now. "Dirty hippy." "Trying to get laid." "Lazy won't work". "Stoned, drunk, peeing on lawns".

The rhetoric of the right hasn't changed but they made a difference. I don't know if OWC will make a change or not. I do know that the status quo can't last. People can't get poorer and poorer while the richest 1% get richer and richer.

Do you really think that those who oppose the OWS protestors voice the rhetoric of the right? I oppose them and I'm certainly not on the right. I oppose them because they make no positive change, they break the law, they have no concern for working people in the neighborhood with their constant shouting and drumming.
 
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18th century capitalism was certasinly different than the current system in your country.
how much control over government did the banks have in your first century as a nation?

do you deny that the current capitalist system in america is corrupt and immoral?
I don't think the system is corrupt and immoral as a whole. There are pockets of immorality and corruption.
 
18th century capitalism was certasinly different than the current system in your country.
how much control over government did the banks have in your first century as a nation?

do you deny that the current capitalist system in america is corrupt and immoral?

Do you think 18th century capitalism was better than today?
 
The goal of OWS is not to end corruption on Wall Street.
So now you speak for them?

Of course there is some legitimate points of view. And?
Let's protest. It's a legitimate form of speech.

So is this just about points of discussion, which is fine but in no way has anything to do with what the American Revolution, the Progressive Movement, and the Civil Rights Movement was about.
Asserting something doesn't make it so. You don't really get to declare that these protestors are irrelevant.

Do you really think that those who oppose the OWS protestors voice the rhetoric of the right?
Damn straight, you've made the very same rhetorical points my father did. So yeah, I do. Absolutely. When you can accept that there are many people who are tired of the status quo, even if you don't agree with them (as I did the Tea Party) and support their right to be heard without maligning and belittling and resorting to trite hackneyed rhetoric then I would happily hear your concerns and discuss them. Until them nothing's changed.
I oppose them because they make no positive change, they break the law, they have no concern for working people in the neighborhood who are constantly disturbed by shouting and drumming.
Yeah, THAT'S what I'm talking about.

  1. Civil rights protestors broke the law and disrupted business and people working in the neighborhoods of the protests.
  2. Women seeking equal rights broke the law.
  3. People who opposed the war broke the law.
You aren't saying anything new.
 
You don't really get to declare that these protestors are irrelevant.

Yeah, I do. It's called free speech.

Damn straight, you've made the very same rhetorical points my father did.

So if someone disagrees with the OWS protestors they are, according to you, on the right. Wrong. Why do you think that folks can't oppose the OWS protestors for non-political reasons?
  1. Civil rights protestors broke the law and disrupted business and people working in the neighborhoods of the protests.
They had goals.

  1. Women seeking equal rights broke the law.
They had goals.
  1. People who opposed the war broke the law.
They had goals.
 
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Yeah, I do. It's called free speech.
I didn't mean litteraly. I meant you don't get to do so and keep your credibility to anyone who is reasonable and intellectually honest.

Why do you think that folks can't oppose the OWS protestors for non-political reasons?
I'm saying that to so so is to expose your agenda of maligning and belittling and refusal to even hear them out. I've read a lot of signs that call for investigations into the corruption, a change in laws and regulations. But you've never seen one of them. Do you really want me to take you seriously?

They had goals.
There are none so blind as they who will not see.
 
Visited "Occupy Cleveland" today, to try and get some pics to share. There were about 12 people there. Seriously. I didn't have the heart to take a photo. I waited until about 6 o'clock, then headed over to city hall, where according to their website there was supposed to be a "rally". Saw a half-dozen people sitting on the steps with their signs resting on the stairs next to them. There was no police presence whatsoever in either location.

It's rather odd, considering that this past Friday night there were alleged to be a couple hundred of them in Public Square. That was the night their initial permit to demonstrate on the Square expired and their tent city was due to be evicted by the police. 11 people were arrested for refusing to leave and released about an hour later.

Now their permit has been renewed, but for a space half the size permitted previously and specified no overnight camping, which they complain is unreasonable since their initial permit was already "too small for the movement"; but practically nobody is there. I suppose that without the threat of imminent "police violence", nobody has any incentive to go there and show "solidarity".

I hear rumors about the large presences and events in Boston and Chicago and wonder if, like in Cleveland, it's almost all hype there as well with weekend evenings showing the only real "presence".

ETA: By the way - remember that article I linked about the girl who reported being raped a while ago when Occupy Cleveland had tents? On Twitter I saw somebody mention that the rumor among some of the "occupiers" is that she was a CIA plant. Not kidding.
 
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I'm saying that to so so is to expose your agenda of maligning and belittling and refusal to even hear them out.
They are bringing nothing new to the political discussion table. We've heard before: Wall street is evil, corporations are greedy, bankers run the country, politicians are corrupt, hope and change, (whoops, how did that slip in there?)yawn.

I just need skepticism.
Then you need to start using it to the same degree by opening your eyes to the big picture and stop identifying with their useless anger and blame.

The goal is to end the corruption on Wall Street.
Then they should be taking their protest to someone that could actually do something about it--the white house and congress. The fact that they don't is pretty telling. Wall street isn't about to be drummed into changing their ways.

To increase jobs and salaries of workers.
Immature retards would protest wall street for more money and jobs. Mature, rational people would spend their time networking and researching to find or create a job.
 
They are bringing nothing new to the political discussion table. We've heard before: Wall street is evil, corporations are greedy, bankers run the country, politicians are corrupt, hope and change, (whoops, how did that slip in there?)yawn.
That it's old hardly renders it irrelevant. And the harm is very severe and very real, I think it's unprecedented. We shouldn't stick our heads in the sand because they've gotten away with screwing us for so long. That's a rather bizarre argument.

Immature retards would protest wall street for more money and jobs. Mature, rational people would spend their time networking and researching to find or create a job.
That's it? "Poopy heads" and "they're pointing out that wall street has been screwing us for a long time they just got better at it so nothing to see here"? Really?
 
Occupy a bank in Oakland:

Note in particular the charming practice of covering your face with a mask; can't imagine how a bank might object to that.
 
:rolleyes:

Proof that anecdotes make for good rhetoric but poor evidence.

Just out of curiosity, is there anything that participants of Occupy Wall Street could say or do that you would find acceptable to bring up in discussions about Occupy Wall Street?
 
There are dodgy and creepy people at church, in congress, at the mall, etc. Your point?

These people are everywhere, and yet the Tea Party (for example; I could name half a dozen other protest groups over the past ten years with the same record)--and yet the Tea Party gatherings seem to be quite lacking in allegations of rape, statutory rape, theft, noise complaints, permit violations, and public defecations.

Nor does the Tea Party seem to be so mind-bogglingly ignorant of human civilization (despite living in it all of their lives) that they find themselves having to rediscover 10,000 of social institutional evolution, before they can actually get anything done.

Say what you will about the Tea Party; they, at least, have already figured out law enforcement, property ownership, representative democracy, and basic hygiene. On that basis alone they are far more fit to influence our society than the OWS crowd is.

In related news:

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/assets_c/2011/10/OWSvsTP-thumb-615x336-66095.jpg
 
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