Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[bikerdruid]

Ok, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't putting words into your mouth/keyboard. How do you think that would be possible without installing a totaltarian dictatorship?

why do you feel that a totalitarian dictatorship is the only choice?
did not your first revolution result in a republic?

 

[RandFan]

I do think a fix is in order but it appears that the OWS crowd is interested in neither a fix or a revolution to overthrow the government. It seems they want to replace current society with a new once based on some sort of direct democracy where all decisions are based on consensus. Note how much of their activity surrounds not around Wall Street but developing their "uptopia" in the park, where all voices are valid as long as you don't like Wall Street (as Checkmite pointed out).

I think that a bit demagogic. I think some percentage want some or all of that. So what? Instead of demonizing the protestors focus on finding and implementing solutions. It's the inertia that's causing the unrest. Belittling protestors is just salt in the wound. Unemployment, low wages, financial scandals, all while the rich get richer and the middle class must live on less and less. I'm worried about the strategy that thinks attacking the protestors ala Marie Antoinette is the solution. Arrogance and contempt is very wrong headed IMO. "Sit down and shut up you dirty lazy hippy" isn't really going to sell.

 

[Brainster]

Follow-up story on the hippie mom who abandoned her family to be with the protestors in Zuccotti Park:

Stacey Hessler, 38 -- a self-described “vegan freak” who’s into dreadlocks, roller derby and “unschooling” her kids -- acts like a self-obsessed college sophomore who never grew up, said a neighbor in her hometown of DeLand, Fla.

“I’m not disgusted she took off [to protest] -- because I’m not surprised,” seethed one next-door neighbor who asked that her name not be published.

“She believes everything should be free,” the neighbor added.

 

[Alt+F4]

why do you feel that a totalitarian dictatorship is the only choice?

Because people are greedy, it is the nature of our beast. This is something that Marx didn't understand. He thought greed was something taught by society. Why do you think Marx's ideology was never sucessful?

did not your first revolution result in a republic?

While economic issues were a big part of what caused the revolution, it was not fought over the goods or evils capitalism, which was in it's infancy at the time.

 

[Virus]

I seriouly think that's a lot of demagoguery. I think some percentage want some or all of that. So what? Instead of demonizing the protestors focus on finding and implementing solutions. It's the inertia that's causing the unrest. Belittling protestors is just salt in the wound. Unemployment, low wages, financial scandals, all while the rich get richer and the middle class must live on less and less. I'm worried about the strategy that thinks attacking the protestors ala Marie Antoinette is the solution. Arrogance and contempt is very wrong headed IMO. "Sit down and shut up you dirty lazy hippy" isn't really going to sell.

Do you agree that there are problems with drug dealing, sexual assault, infighting and theft at these OWS tent villages? Do you agree that there are dodgy and creepy people hanging around there? Like that sex offender the police nabbed? You seem to get very defensive when people point out that things aren't exactly going peachy with the Occutards.

 

[RandFan]

Follow-up story on the hippie mom who abandoned her family to be with the protestors in Zuccotti Park:

Proof that anecdotes make for good rhetoric but poor evidence.

 

[Neally]

did not your first revolution result in a republic?

Sure and one based on capitalism. Over a third of the protesters think capitalism is inherently evil and unlike the American revolution, we have a democratic process in place that will allow for change. The Tea party harnessed it to their advantage. OWS could do the same if they were actually interested in political change, but they aren't. Like I said before, for them, it's more about protest for the sake of protest and being part of the scene.

 

[bikerdruid]

Sure and one based on capitalism.

18th century capitalism was certasinly different than the current system in your country.
how much control over government did the banks have in your first century as a nation?

do you deny that the current capitalist system in america is corrupt and immoral?

 

[RandFan]

Do you agree that there are problems with drug dealing, sexual assault, infighting and theft at these OWS tent villages?

? I think crime is a problem regardless. Your point?

Do you agree that there are dodgy and creepy people hanging around there?

There are dodgy and creepy people at church, in congress, at the mall, etc. Your point?

Like that sex offender the police nabbed? You seem to get very defensive when people point out that things aren't exactly going peachy with the Occutards.

Because these are anecdotes being used to paint the movement with a broad brush. Because these anecdotes are red herrings to get folks not to deal with real... oh, look squirrel.

I guess that's what pisses me off the most. That people are stupid enough to turn and look at the squirrel and/or people assume that we are all so stupid that we will look at the squirrel.

 

[Virus]

18th century capitalism was certasinly different than the current system in your country.
how much control over government did the banks have in your first century as a nation?

do you deny that the current capitalist system in america is corrupt and immoral?

Communism is worse.

 

[RandFan]

do you deny that the current capitalist system in america is corrupt and immoral?

Communism is worse.

So let's find some middle ground. Regulate and tax.

 

[Alt+F4]

Here's the link to the minutes of their general assemblies. A large part of a recent one was taken up by a discussion of the fact they have a lot of wet laundry and no one seems to want to wash it. No discussion about what is wrong with Wall Street and solutions on how to fix it (or overthrow it).

http://www.nycga.net/2011/10/23/nycga-minutes-10232011/#more-1075

 

[RandFan]

do you deny that the current capitalist system in america is corrupt and immoral?

Communism is worse.

So let's find some middle ground. Regulate and tax.

A nation with middle ground and freedom.

On balance, it would be incorrect to classify Norway as a "Socialist" country. Despite high rates of taxation, and some major industries owned by government, Norway has a very high rating of economic freedom according to the Index of Economic Freedom as published by the Heritage Foundation.

2011 Index of Economic Freedom, -- Heritage Foundation

http://www.heritage.org/index/country/norway

Norway’s economic freedom score is 70.3, making its economy the 30th freest in the 2011 Index. Its score has increased by 0.9 point since last year, mainly reflecting a considerable gain in freedom from corruption. Norway is ranked 16th out of 43 countries in the Europe region, and its overall score is well above the world and regional averages...

The modern and competitive Norwegian economy has long benefited from its relatively high levels of economic freedom...

The state maintains substantial ownership in many key industries, including enterprises in manufacturing, telecommunications, hydroelectric power, and transportation.

 

[RandFan]

Here's the link to the minutes of their general assemblies. A large part of a recent one was taken up by a discussion of the fact they have a lot of wet laundry and no one seems to want to wash it. No discussion about what is wrong with Wall Street and solutions on how to fix it (or overthrow it).

http://www.nycga.net/2011/10/23/nycga-minutes-10232011/#more-1075

Why do you think this is significant? They talk about wet laundry, so what. Is every discussion about items not related to Wall Street? How hard will you work to discredit the group? Did you think it fair when the Tea Party was being marginalized in similar fashion? Or did you accept the anecdotes given then?

 

[Neally]

How hard will you work to discredit the group? Did you think it fair when the Tea Party was being marginalized in similar fashion? Or did you accept the anecdotes given then?

How hard will you work to apologize and defend the group? We have more than anecdotes to criticize them on but you hand wave the statistics away.

Then there's this gem from their minutes:

There was a community board meeting a few days ago where many residents voiced their support and some voiced concerns with two issues. One was sanitation. People have been urinating and defecating in the neighborhood. Another was the drumming. The community board was under the impression drumming would be limited to 2 hours a day and that has not been the case.

 

[RandFan]

How hard will you work to apologize and defend the group? We have more than anecdotes to criticize them on but you hand wave the statistics away.

I don't need to hand wave anythong away. I just need skepticism. Do you honestly accept every study without question?

Then there's this gem from their minutes:

I'm truly at a loss why banal discussion points are significant to you... and? Banality for discussions is a hallmark of formal meetings. Have you ever been to a meeting?

 

[Virus]

So let's find some middle ground. Regulate and tax.

Why would you want middle ground with an evil system of no redeeming features?

 

[RandFan]

How hard will you work to apologize and defend the group? We have more than anecdotes to criticize them on but you hand wave the statistics away.

BTW: I got this same nonsense when I defended the Tea Party protestors. I didn't agree with everything they said nor was I an apologist for their positions. I resent this kind of red herring distractions that seek to quiet the dialectic and not advance it. I was trying to keep them from being margenalized as I thought the message important for discussion. It was asinine against the Tea Party and it is asinine now. So stick your aspersions.

 

[Brainster]

CNBC put up a podium and a (non-amplified) microphone and some cameras and let people talk about why they were there and what they wanted.

My personal favorites are Truther Ken Jones (second video from top) and the unnamed black chick (fifteenth video) who's upset that CNBC is making money off the protest, and decides not to speak. That lasts for about five seconds, then she starts ranting again. When one of the media people at OWS follows and apologizes to CNBC, the black chick returns and they get into a scuffle with BC breaking an egg over the microphone. Great entertainment value.

Plenty of leftists there including kids from the Little Red Schoolhouse, a communist elementary school in New York City.

 

[Alt+F4]

Why do you think this is significant? They talk about wet laundry, so what. Is every discussion about items not related to Wall Street? How hard will you work to discredit the group? Did you think it fair when the Tea Party was being marginalized in similar fashion? Or did you accept the anecdotes given then?

There is a big difference between being marginalized in the media and taking a crap in someone's doorway. The Tea Party people at least had the decency to protest then go home and organize. I don't understand what occupying a park and disrupting the lives of working people has to do with wrong-doing on Wall Street. Fight Wall Street, overthrow Wall Street but don't tell me that movie night with pajamas and popcorn is doing either.