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Merged New video! Architects and Engineers - Solving the Mystery of Building 7

In effect, you place your opinions and obedience to the NIST hypothesis, above those of the over 1,600 architects and engineers who endorse AE911Truth with their real names and real reputations.

Are you seriously unaware that the vast majority of those Architects and Engineers have as much qualification as I do? In the grand scheme of things, they mean nothing, as does Richard Gage. Computer Engineers? Landscape Architects? They don't even hide their areas of study. It's right there, in the open. They are no more qualified than I am - a digital prepress engineer. A PDF Architect, if you will.
 
MM, I notice your last post is a huge Appeal to Perfection Logical Fallacy.
If the modelling of any such complex, chaotic event as a large building fire resembled observed reality perfectly, you can be sure that the model has been tampered with.
Which is what AE911T probably did.

Oh and by the way: Model time stamp is 2:00pm, photograph is 2:10pm.
10 minutes can make a differnce in a violent fire. Just saying.


But I guess the most important consideration is: How does this disparity between model and photo affect the conclusions, if at all? Please be specific on that one. In particular, what happened to the south-east perimeter in the NIST collapse scenario, and what happened to it in the AE911T collapse scenario. Oh! There is AE911T collapse scenario? Then I guess you don't know if this is relevant at all, right?
 
In effect, you place your opinions and obedience to the NIST hypothesis, above those of the over 1,600 architects and engineers who endorse AE911Truth with their real names and real reputations.

You are not even attempting to have a discussion, you are bible thumping.

MM
The ASCE endorses the NIST report. It has hundreds of thousands or so of members. And that's leaving aside the millions of professionals in those fields who are busy not endorsing AE911T.

Nice attempt at the bandwagon fallacy, though. Keep chest-thumping.
 
MM, I notice your last post is a huge Appeal to Perfection Logical Fallacy.
If the modelling of any such complex, chaotic event as a large building fire resembled observed reality perfectly, you can be sure that the model has been tampered with.
Which is what AE911T probably did.

Oh and by the way: Model time stamp is 2:00pm, photograph is 2:10pm.
10 minutes can make a differnce in a violent fire. Just saying.


But I guess the most important consideration is: How does this disparity between model and photo affect the conclusions, if at all? Please be specific on that one. In particular, what happened to the south-east perimeter in the NIST collapse scenario, and what happened to it in the AE911T collapse scenario. Oh! There is AE911T collapse scenario? Then I guess you don't know if this is relevant at all, right?

I have never understood the troofer expectations of the fire modeling having to exactly match second by second the observed fire. That is not the purpose of the modeling at all. The NIST never suggested that the modelling perfectly represented the fires, but I guess that is all that is left for troofers to hang there hats on.
 
I have never understood the troofer expectations of the fire modeling having to exactly match second by second the observed fire. That is not the purpose of the modeling at all. The NIST never suggested that the modelling perfectly represented the fires, but I guess that is all that is left for troofers to hang there hats on.

Twoofers noticed this - and thus have concluded that they should have, and because of that, it's important. No other reason.
 
Is your alleged participation in this discussion nothing more than a ruse?
No, I'm seriously pointing out that the changes you allege to be done as a convenience to the reports' conclusions are in fact normal for a report that requires extensive research.

I assumed while writing my response that you had some sort of experience writing a dissertation but that appears to have been a misconception on my part. You apparently must not. My experience writing a thesis project is that research is ongoing and if information changes or the accuracy of the information requires me to correct assumptions made before. My conclusions by consequence change because I did the research, not because I was trying to fit it to a prebuilt framework.

I specifically told you that the accuracy of the information in the final report is the important part; it's an engineering investigation. It requires as-built documentation to reflect accurately, this isn't guaranteed in a draft report because that research is ongoing.

You tell me; how simplified does the explanation need to be for you to understand the basic concept?


You've already dismissed the importance of the NIST removing critical text from a previously proofread report (2004) by suggesting it (the 2008 report) did so as part of a final proofreading, and that you couldn't see the seriousness in the changes anyway.

Changes that conveniently removed obstacles from the NIST final hypothesis.
If you can show that the accuracy of the information reflected in the changes contradicts whats actually on the as-built drawings of the building, we'll have a solid conversation. But if you're definition of fraud appears to be nothing more than a few proof-reading changes, and to boot you have repeatedly failed to back up your accusations to show they were made with malign intent. I told you how you could back them up if your assertions hold weight, try going through the effort.

More of your stating the obvious (of course photographs provide visual data).
Read: anything happening out of view, for example behind a wall, or deeper inside the building is not seen. It's incomplete data.

What you've ignored, is that the photograph does show the state of the fires at the east side exterior of WTC7 on the critical 12th floor.
Models incorporate both real and estimated data to achieve results that aren't visually or experimentally measurable. Photographs help improve the accuracy, but the models themselves will not replicate reality. Anyone who tries to force fit it by relying only on one input - in this case photographs - for the model simulation, is carelessly throwing out 95% of viable accuracy.

Models are as much affected by the accuracy of their inputs as they are by the lack of inputs considered. You're condoning sub-standard modeling, and have no familiarity with the practical applications of it in the first place.

In other words, you stand by the NIST hypothesis regardless of how damning any contrary evidence might be.
I'll stand by the theory which can back up its evidence with competent research. As I've pointed out throughout the length of our exchange controlled demolition is supported by nothing more than appeals to authority, spontaneous similarity, and the pseudo scientific practices which you accuse your critics of practicing. It's difficult to communicate this to a proponent of controlled demolition for reasons I outlined here.


In effect, you place your opinions and obedience to the NIST hypothesis, above those of the over 1,600 architects and engineers who endorse AE911Truth with their real names and real reputations.
So this all boils down to name and reputation huh? If Gage is putting his name and reputation on the line you can care less if his claims are credible? That sounds a lot like the "faith" you were discussing earlier. I suppose if you define your use of the term "bible thumper" against me as placing accuracy, credibility, demonstrated knowledge, professionalism, and established evidence ahead of religion I'll take your use of the term as a complement.
 
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63,

Let me suggest a little expansion on your (or perhaps Grizz's) abbreviated synopsis of the collapse. One that I believe is significant because it considers time constants for certain effects.

You wrote:



Gravity is a constant, unremitting.

The damage (from the planes) happened in the course of a couple of seconds. Prompt secondary failures extended for perhaps 30 seconds or so. (Note that secondary, local failures - collapsed floors, for example - also happened throughout the time left standing, each contributing to added, irreparable damage & weakening of the whole structure.)

The initial damage dramatically changed the load conditions, which put certain components into lower stress (no problem here) and other components into much higher stresses (significant problem here). But most importantly, into different KIND of stresses, bending instead of pure compression (huge problem here).

Omitted from "damage & gravity" is the fires, and the consequence of fires & non-axial loads: creep.

Large fires started immediately, burned for variable extended periods (peak heat outputs lasting about 20 minutes in any given area), and then moved on to other locations as fuel is consumed.

The heating of the steel columns takes a relatively short period of time, measured in seconds for very thin wall, uninsulated components to minutes in very thick wall, uninsulated components, to tens of minutes (up to a couple hours) for insulated components.

Yet the buildings stood for ~1 hour & ~2 hours for WTC 2 & 1 respectively.

The feature that took this amount of time was creep of the structure, the slow, methodical deformation of the steel under the influence of load & heat.

In a typical creep failure, the yielding start slowly at first, then progressively gets faster & faster as the component approaches failure, so that at the ultimate moment, the failure can appear to be instantaneous.

And it is the creep, and its effect - a slow, positive feedback loop of heat -> added stress -> more yielding -> more stress -> faster yielding -> yet higher stresses -> faster yielding -> yet higher stresses -> etc., that matches the time constants of the buildings' 1 hour & 2 hour demises.

I'd suggest a new abbreviation:

Damage, unbalanced loading, fire, creep, creep, & creep, plus gravity led to the collapse.

tom

You've ignored the omnipotent path of least resistance.

The scale of 9/11 justice for your hypothesis.

You fail.
 
You've ignored the omnipotent path of least resistance.

The scale of 9/11 justice for your hypothesis.

You fail.

We are not dealing with fluids. The building consisted entirely of solid materials who are not free to search and find paths of least resistance. They just go where forces will lead them, with one constant, unremitting force dominating all others: Gravity. Which always pulls down.


If you are looking for the phemomenon of "path of least resistance" you might look at how some of the compressed air below the collapse front behaved: Whenever a new path of least resistance opened in the facades, such as a new window breaking, a squib had a chance of forming - more air trying to escape through that path.
Strangely, this "path of least resistance" explanation is summarily rejected by many truthers, although it applies here (gasses are fluid), and not to the solid building materials.

It's a strange upside-down world of physics that truthers live in. One has to wonder how they can stand (if their mass drags them to a path of least resistance outside of their footstep) and breath (if air can't find a path of least resistance in and out of the lungs).
 
Troofers fail to realize that falling straight down WAS the path of least resistance. Troofer fail once again.

Yes.

Pushing all that falling debris out sideways would have involved far more resistance than just collapsing in its path.

Drop a pebble a short distance onto a glass greenhouse roof and the pebble might just be deflected sideways.

Drop the pebble a greater distance - or a larger stone the same distance - and the "least resistance" concept will see the glass breaking.

The average Truther has no clue what "path of least resistance" means.
 
Yes.

Pushing all that falling debris out sideways would have involved far more resistance than just collapsing in its path.

Drop a pebble a short distance onto a glass greenhouse roof and the pebble might just be deflected sideways.

Drop the pebble a greater distance - or a larger stone the same distance - and the "least resistance" concept will see the glass breaking.

The average Truther has no clue what "path of least resistance" means.

Besides that, high rise building encounter far more lateral forces than gravity forces: hence are designed to resist far greater lateral forces than gravity forces. Why troofers continue to believe the building should have "toppled" or jumped sideways is beyond silly. :rolleyes:
 
leftysergeant said:
"It doesn't matter how many times you re-post that whacktard's version of what the fires were doing. He knows bugger-all about fire science."

And this name calling of people more accomplished than yourself.

How has it been working out for you?

MM
 
Miragememories said:
"In effect, you place your opinions and obedience to the NIST hypothesis, above those of the over 1,600 architects and engineers who endorse AE911Truth with their real names and real reputations."
NoahFence said:
"Are you seriously unaware that the vast majority of those Architects and Engineers have as much qualification as I do?"

How would I know? You are just another anonymous poster.

NoahFence said:
"In the grand scheme of things, they mean nothing, as does Richard Gage."

Quite true Noah. We are all going to die.

NoahFence said:
"Computer Engineers? Landscape Architects? They don't even hide their areas of study. It's right there, in the open. They are no more qualified than I am - a digital prepress engineer. A PDF Architect, if you will."

So, if you feel so unqualified, why to you bother to think, and have opinions about subjects which you are not expert in?

MM
 
000063 said:
"The ASCE endorses the NIST report. It has hundreds of thousands or so of members. And that's leaving aside the millions of professionals in those fields who are busy not endorsing AE911T.

Nice attempt at the bandwagon fallacy, though. Keep chest-thumping."

Are you suggesting that those thousands of ASCE members have read the NIST WTC reports?

And that each and every one are up to date on the subject of 9/11 and have gone on the public record to say so, just like the 1600+ architects and engineers who publicly signed the AE911Truth petition?

MM
 
Are you suggesting that those thousands of ASCE members have read the NIST WTC reports?

And that each and every one are up to date on the subject of 9/11 and have gone on the public record to say so, just like the 1600+ architects and engineers who publicly signed the AE911Truth petition?

MM

How many of the 1627 top signers of the AE911T have read any of the NIST reports? Please provide and justify a lower bound for that number!

In preparation to this, you might want to contemplate on (and answer) the following question:

When a signer of AE911T's petition states in his personal statement some criticism of the NIST reports, does this imply, in your mind, that he has read any part of them? Yes or No will do.
 
NIST's conclusions are more than pretty lines on paper. They've led to changes in the buildings codes which have a tangible impact on professional practice, requiring new design constraints which increase construction costs across the board isn't something a firm enjoys doing when the changes are unnecessary. Yet Gage seems to pay very little attention to those. I always wonder if he thinks the professional community he believes to be ignorant would sit quietly to something like that. The loss of work obviously must not be an issue if the government hasn't taken special measure to silence his movement.

So this has turned from a lengthy argument requiring basic knowledge of professional practice and insight into building construction to semantics, ignorance, and this "faith" that all controlled demolition opponents were accused of committing.

Irony anyone?
 
You do not know much about audio do you?

MM

Sounds like a roll off dumpster being dropped off to me. Or even a piece of heavy equipment slamming its bucket down. Then again I'm used to the sound of large metal objects banging into other large metal objects and/or concrete. BTW large metal objects breaking make a lot of noise with no explosives needed. Look back at the "big blue" crane collapse. Awful shriek of shearing and failing parts followed by the "snap" of release.

I live close to a schoolyard (about 2 blocks). Every night around 1:30 am the garbage truck comes and empties two dumpsters. When it forks them back down to the ground, they sound like explosions. I want to try and catch the audio from my window one day and edit it into a fake video, just to see reactions.

I know I'm a few days late but you can prove that "noise" came from 7WTC and not from somewhere else in downtown Manhattan? C'mon it's not a building in an empty field after all. Coincidences happen. It could just be the initial failure as a column tears away with a "snap". (speculating of course, except I admit it)
 
Animal said:
"I have never understood the troofer expectations of the fire modeling having to exactly match second by second the observed fire. That is not the purpose of the modeling at all. The NIST never suggested that the modelling perfectly represented the fires, but I guess that is all that is left for troofers to hang there hats on."

I believe the NIST said they believed their computer models to be a fair and accurate representation of reality.

When it is shown that they are not, it would seem only fair to seriously doubt the validity of any hypothesis based on such erroneous modeling.

The NIST hypothesis is critically dependent on how the fire behaved on floor 12.

wtc72pmfire9608vy2.png


The images above do not represent a demand for the fire to exactly match the model second by second.

They represent the fact that the actual exterior fire activity is no where even close to resembling the NIST model.

And in the NIST Figure 9-11 below, which shows the computer model for floor 12 from 1:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m., the modeling problem becomes even more serious.

NORTH SIDE
nistwtc712floorfiresoo7.png


In an environment where the amount of heat was declining, thermal expansion should also be declining. If the NIST hypothesis was true, column 79 should have failed earlier, in conjunction with the peak fire activity in the designated failure zone. But, according to the NIST's own documentation, despite diminishing fire activity on the critical floor 12, from 4:00 p.m. to 5:20 p.m. critical steel kept expanding to the point of critical instability and buckling.

MM
 
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