Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Draca]

Oh. My. Word. The portly figure holding the compact digital camera: it couldn't possibly be.................

Giuliano Mignini?

The body shape and eyebrows are a strong match, and I can't remember any other personnel at the crime scene except Mignini who looked in any way similar. I'm inclined to believe that this is Mignini taking his own photos of the scene. How very........ interesting.

At the beginning to the Dec 18 film you can see this guy in the doorway without the mask on. I don't think it is Mignini.

 

[davefoc]

I have seen EXIF data from the three Nikon cameras used at the crime scene. I have not seen EXIF data from any other camera attached to crime scene photos.

Often the EXIF data is stripped from photos placed on the web but there are some notable exceptions. The Luminol photos available here still have the full EXIF metadata attached.

Dave asks if the time and date stamps were checked. Why would ILE worry about such trivial things. The time on camera that the videographer was using was off by an hour as noted in <dr stefanoni's testimony.

Thanks Dan O. for the link.

I looked at the EXIF data on quite a few of the images that you linked to. I didn't notice anything of particular interest. I didn't notice any EXIF data that would have been created by a small point and shoot camera. All the images I looked at were either created by a Nikon D50 or a Nikon D80.

I noticed that one of the images of the presumed foot prints in Luminol was taken on December 18, 2007 8:47 PM and photoshopped on December 19, 2007. I hadn't realized how long after the murder the crime scene was being processed (except for the famous bra clip of course). Perhaps the late time of day for the Luminol prints was because they like to use luminol after dark.

 

[Chris C]

Lalli was not adamant at all: he said he had no conclusive idea on whether it was one or more assailants. He also said he had no conclusive element to state there was a sexual violence.

Actually that should set off a big bell for you Mach. Since there was no sign of sexual trama and Guede's dna was found inside her. Then that means she was dead when Guede introduced his dna or you actually believe his story that they had consensual sex before she was murdered. If guede raped her dead body then that kinda ruins the whole staging the murder room theory.

 

[RoseMontague]

But on a deeper level, the difference was announced even before the start of the discussion, as Zanetti declared that "the only sure thing is that Meredith was killed" and they said that "reasonable doubt does not allow to share entirely the decision of the first instance". Those announcements - retrospectively - show that an intent was already present before the beginning of the discussion; in practice the had decided before the start.
On a deeper level, the difference between the first and the second trial is in how the whole discussion on evidence has been set. This reveals that there was an intent to consider the pieces of evidence differently.

About the deep "causes" of this, to have a clear opinion I need to read the sentencing report. But starting from the basics, by looking at the evidence set, and considering the features of some other - rare, but important - Italian precedents, my stronger suspicion is that the motivation beyond Hellmann's decision was corruption or personal interest. Not so much directly demending on the powers and media around Knox, but rather caused by those related to Sollecito.

Right: This is the whole point of the appeal. To take a fresh view, to clear away assumptions. Sort of like the Cartesian hyperbolic doubt, which allows the thinker to begin anew. This is a good thing, and it was the first verdict which was sullied and dirty.

I agree with smk on this, the appeal court was supposed to take a fresh look at the case, the evidence, and the testimony. What they had decided from the start was to give AK and RS a fair trial.

 

[Antony]

No, nothing personal as far as I know. On the other hand Hellmann went against the opinions of a large number of judges, not just Massei. Hellmann used to be not involved in criminal trials before this one, and Zanetti has been moved to Terni, a tiny, useless venue with no perspectives compared to Perugia, an unusual destination in the career of an appeal judge in his position.

The motivation I am thinking about is not for purposes of rivalry and career, but for brotherhood. You must grasp the concept that Italian socieaty is not made of free individuals, but of brotheroods, families, affiliations, organizations.
The disturbing question is put also by Giancarlo di Cataldo, a judge in a court of Assise in Rome who is also a writer: "But how would I feel if I had to judge on a brother?".
The first question actually was the renounce by the first judge and the consequent appointing of Hellmann.

This seems a highly revealing statement, and presumably Mach believes (or is trying to insinuate) that the Hellmann verdict is accounted for by an alleged "brotherhood" embracing both him and Sollecito's family.

Actually, there are far more indications of "brotherhood" influence in the conduct of the Massei trial, with all the latitude allowed to the prosecution alongside denial of all the defence challenges. The simple facts are that the Hellmann court followed the evidence, the Massei court followed something else.

 

[Machiavelli]

Actually that should set off a big bell for you Mach. Since there was no sign of sexual trama and Guede's dna was found inside her. Then that means she was dead when Guede introduced his dna or you actually believe his story that they had consensual sex before she was murdered. If guede raped her dead body then that kinda ruins the whole staging the murder room theory.

Lalli didn't say there was no sign of sexual trauma. He said he could not state for certain if the bruises were the result of a violence.
A scenario where Meredith is already dead as Guede does sexual acts is absurd, it is against many aspects of the crime scene and autopsy report.

 

[Machiavelli]

I'm not talking about his autopsy report or his court testimony, I'm talking about what he said that got reported as him not thinking there could be more than one attacker due mainly to the size of the room and something about how the injuries were inflicted. This is before he was dismissed from the case, and I recall thinking he was more adamant than he ought to be going off that data alone. Was this from Frank Sfarzo when he talked to him?

The official reason Mignini sacked him was talking to press (on the phone?) about the nature of the assault, probably due to things that we don't have to bring up in this discussion. However this would have been something else he said that might not have sat well with Mignini.

It is evident that Lalli always declared in court that he thought he could not make a statement about the number of assailants. He has always reported this of his conclusion in the trial. We have to consider this statement as his opinion, from the point f view of his observations. Given that he has this position, I think we cannot use the adjective "adament" about a different opinion.
If your source is Frank, you can forget the term "adamant" forever.

 

[Machiavelli]

What are your views on Forza Nuova?

It seems like the Amanda Knox case has struck a deep chord with you and you have an audience here if you want to tell us more.

Forza Nuova are a bunch of Roman fascists, some of the farthers of which are friends of Vecchiotti.

 

[RoseMontague]

Man From Atlan has a new post out called A Psycho-Astrological Perspective on the Relationship of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

http://manfromatlan.blogspot.com/2011/10/psycho-astrological-perspective-on.html

Summary: The Moon represents the relationship with the mother. Amanda Knox's father left the family when she was a toddler, and her mother remarried with a much younger man. Meredith Kercher, on the other hand, had a strong, loving relationship with her mother. It appears that Meredith reflected back Amanda's issues with her own mother, whose high expectations (she's a teacher) and Amanda's self destructive patterns and rebelliousness led to a violent outcome.

Looks like comments are allowed.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Lalli didn't say there was no sign of sexual trauma. He said he could not state for certain if the bruises were the result of a violence.
A scenario where Meredith is already dead as Guede does sexual acts is absurd, it is against many aspects of the crime scene and autopsy report.

Such as?

 

[Kaosium]

It is evident that Lalli always declared in court that he thought he could not make a statement about the number of assailants. He has always reported this of his conclusion in the trial. We have to consider this statement as his opinion, from the point f view of his observations. Given that he has this position, I think we cannot use the adjective "adament" about a different opinion.
If your source is Frank, you can forget the term "adamant" forever.

Actually I didn't mean 'adamant' in a positive way, as I thought it rather too strong myself as the reasons given didn't seem to support it. It sounded like hyperbole when I read it, and I cannot find it now. I just brought it up as it might have been something else that irritated Mignini, though now I'm uncertain as to whether it was accurate. At any rate, his unwillingness to be 'adamant' about the evidence of the rape would have been rather an...inconvenience to Mignini's ritualistic sex-game theory, and would have been enough reason for him not to want that information public.

So how come Mignini was never interested in quashing the demonstrably untrue things leaked to the press about Raffaele and Amanda?

 

[RoseMontague]

At the beginning to the Dec 18 film you can see this guy in the doorway without the mask on. I don't think it is Mignini.

Looks like he has a beard, probably the same as the guy in the orange.

 

[Fine]

For those interested in another improbable murder.....here's a good summary of the present status of the Sarah Scazzi muder case: La Repubblica. (Now, apparently, the prosecution is claiming that Sabrina and her mother Cosima, in an automobile, chased down poor fleeing Sarah.) Cosima will speak to the court today. Michele, Sabrina's father, has been staying home, protecting his property because of bomb threats.

///

 

[RoseMontague]

For those interested in another improbable murder.....here's a good summary of the present status of the Sarah Scazzi muder case: La Repubblica. (Now, apparently, the prosecution is claiming that Sabrina and her mother Cosima, in an automobile, chased down poor fleeing Sarah.) Cosima will speak to the court today. Michele, Sabrina's father, has been staying home, protecting his property because of bomb threats.

///

Wow, they just made this up. Crazy case.

 

[Diocletus]

At the beginning to the Dec 18 film you can see this guy in the doorway without the mask on. I don't think it is Mignini.

This isn't the same guy that was wearing the hideous "Denmark" sweatshirt in a different shot, is it?

Can anybody ask Frank to ID this guy?

Machiavelli--Can you identify this guy?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Bachrach at Vanity Fair

You guys are absolutely right. I forgot about the claim that Amanda had showered in the blood-soaked bathroom.

Mary_H,

In a 2008 Vanity Fair article Judy Bachrach wrote, “She had found the bathroom she shared with Meredith smeared with so much blood it looked as though a butcher had attempted washing up and then given up the task. Amanda was puzzled. ‘It seemed a bit strange to me for the simple reason that all us girls are pretty clean and neat, and we clean up the bathroom,’ she later reflected.” I read this passage as Bachrach's implying that Amanda was lying.

 

[RoseMontague]

Mary_H,

In a 2008 Vanity Fair article Judy Bachrach wrote, “She had found the bathroom she shared with Meredith smeared with so much blood it looked as though a butcher had attempted washing up and then given up the task. Amanda was puzzled. ‘It seemed a bit strange to me for the simple reason that all us girls are pretty clean and neat, and we clean up the bathroom,’ she later reflected.” I read this passage as Bachrach's implying that Amanda was lying.

Did Bachrach ever figure out she had based this assumption on a misleading photograph?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

not sure

Did Bachrach ever figure out she had based this assumption on a misleading photograph?

RM,

I think I sent her an email at one point, but that is as much as I know.

 

[RoseMontague]

RM,

I think I sent her an email at one point, but that is as much as I know.

I saw her on a few interviews during the appeal and she is definitely pro-innocence now. Something must have changed her mind.

 

[Draca]

Looks like he has a beard, probably the same as the guy in the orange.

That's Domenico Giacinto Profazio. He is the one who decided it was impossible for someone to climb through the window. Which is probably true for him.

He was also there on Nov 5th for Amanda's interrogation. Frank Sfarzo said he moved on to Rome to cause trouble for the innocent people over there.

I wouldn't doubt at all if Profazio sold those photos.