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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Nick Terry said:
Spector, Shmuel, ‘Aktion 1005 – Effacing the Murder of Millions’, Holocaust and Genocide Studies 5/2, 1990, pp.157-173

since then supplemented by sections of numerous regional studies as well as

Hoffmann, Jens, ‘Das kann man nicht erzählen’: ‘Aktion 1005’ – Wie die Nazis die Spuren ihrer Massenmorde in Osteuropa beseitigten. Hamburg: Konkret Verlag, 2008

and shortly to be joined by another full-length monograph on 1005 from Andrej Angrick.
Click to expand...
But you have no evidence, you see, because the evidence is in archives and, ugh, books that I would have to read, where I already know they are wrong.
 
The holohoax is an expensive buffet of lies and liars. The meat and potatoes lie is that the gas chamber nonsense could have taken place.

science
proximity
labor
nobody knew
 
Dogzilla said:
It's not gassing and burning that is impossible. It's the scale.
Click to expand...

One of your many dishonesties in this discussion is actually your refusal to consider scale properly. The Nazis used gassing at quite a few different sites, and they also cremated bodies at quite a few different sites. Some involved Jewish victims only, some a mix of Jewish and non-Jewish victims. But pretty much all we ever hear about from you is Treblinka, Treblinka, Treblinka.

It's not like the number of sites where gassing and burning took place is that large, yet for some curious reason deniers always remain unable to discuss the entire set.

So let's consider scale, shall we?

There are probably dozens of sites where bodies of executed Jews were exhumed and cremated in the open air by one or other detachment of Sonderkommando 1005. Mostly near to big cities, whereas very few smaller towns were visited by 1005.

So we know that at Kharkov (12,000 Jewish victims) and Rovno (15,000+ Jewish victims), 1005 didn't visit, and mass graves were exhumed after the war, at sites we have German documents for.

we also know that bodies were exhumed and cremated at:
Pinsk (26,000 victims, documented),
Bronnaia Gora near Brest (17,000+ documented victims)
Mogilev (mixture of Jews, POWs and politicals)
Minsk (various sites, including POW graves)
Kiev-Babi Yar (33,000 Jews, c 15,000 non-Jews)
across much of the Crimea (28,000 Jews, documented)
Riga (various sites, > 40-50,000 Jews)
Kaunas (Fort IX, large)
Vilnius-Ponary (10s of 1000s of Jews)
Lwow-Janowska (10s of 1000s of Jews)
around Bialystok
around Grodno
Krakow (1000s of Jews, 1000s of Polish politicals)
Trawniki and Poniatowa (24,000 Jews)

These were all open-air cremations. The organisation of the exhumations and cremations was devolved to regional SS authorities as well as Blobel's department. Detachments 1005-A and 1005-B existed, but so did other "1005" detachments which were set up locally w/o Blobel's direct involvement. The labour forces came from a mix of Jews and Soviet POWs, so by late 1943 you're talking about probably, several thousand workers operating across multiple locations. We know of several dozen survivors who escaped these detachments, and we have a growing number of documents referring to their activities in various localities, plus proof of involvement of specific SS officers from annotations in their personnel files. The cremations were observed and reported by diarists or underground reports, and all the sites were looked at after liberation, and the graves were identified plus, naturally, cremains.

Since the killings of Jews that took place at these sites were extensively documented by the Nazis in a variety of SS, Police, Army and civil administration reports, the problem in ascertaining numbers comes more often from working out how many non-Jews were shot as resistance sympathisers or activists at these sites, as Sicherheitspolizei reports for the later phase of the occupation are relatively rare.

There are quite a few sites with 10-20,000 victims and several with up to 50,000 (Ponary, Babi Yar, Riga).

I am wondering whether Dogzilla can advance convincing arguments about scale against these sites. (We will ignore outright 'none of it ever happened' trolling and other delaying tactics.)

There are also many concentration camps which claimed similar numbers of victims. Firstly the ones without gas chambers

Buchenwald
Belsen
Flossenbuerg
Gross-Rosen

plus the camps in the Baltic states
Vaivara
Riga-Kaiserwald-Salaspils
Kauen
which overlap with the ghettos and shooting sites, so are less important

and then the camp which had a gas chamber but never used it
Dachau

and then the ones which also operated gas chambers for one of several different purposes (Commissar Order, medical experiments, 'Endphase', executions)

Natzweiler
Ravensbrueck
Stutthof
Sachsenhausen
Mauthausen

All the camps in the Reich had crematoria with a handful of muffles but some became such hell-holes that cremating all the bodies wasn't possible, eg Belsen. Most claimed victims in the 20-40,000 range. Mauthausen, however, claimed 100,000 victims who were virtually all cremated in a relatively small number of muffles in two crematoria, one in the main camp and one in Gusen.

Again one wonders if Dogzilla has an argument based on scale regarding these sites

Then there are the T4 institutes, usign gas chambers and all equipped with, usually, two muffle crematoria. Six institutes at

Hadamar
Bernburg
Sonnenstein
Brandenburg
Grafeneck
Hartheim

where 75,000 psychiatric patients were killed in 1940-41, followed by 15-20,000 concentration camp inmates selected under '14 f 13'. Well-documented, right down to the use of gas as the killing method.

Again one wonders if Dogzilla has any argument about scale against these sites.

Gas was also used at several improvised extermination camps in the form of gas vans. Notably

Semlin near Belgrade (7000+ victims)
Maly Trostinets near Minsk (well over 20,000 victims)

The bodies were later exhumed and cremated, as at other sites where shooting had been used. One can contrast these with exhumations of gas van victims at Smolensk, Krasnodar, Kharkov and a few other localities in the easternmost territories occupied by the Nazis, which were liberated in 1943. There is perfectly good documentary evidence linking gas vans used at Minsk and Belgrade and indeed, evidence linking Minsk and Smolensk.

A variety of methods were used at Majdanek, where 78,000 victims perished. 18,000 were shot in 'Erntefest' in 1943, a number that would have overwhelmed the relatively limited crematoria in the camp, so they were buried and then cremated. Other victims were also buried and then exhumed, eg the Jews of the Lublin ghetto shot in several actions over the course of 1942. Most of the 60,000 other deaths in the camp were 'normal' KZ deaths but there were 1000s who were gassed. 59,000 of the victims were Jews and nearly 20,000 non-Jews.

Again there doesn't seem to be a big problem with scale here.

Already we're talking about 100s of 1000s of victims, more than half a million in the camps in Germany, while a similar number were cremated at the various shooting sites. Meanwhile, well over a million bodies of Jewish victims in the Soviet Union were not cremated and left to be exhumed after liberation.

Chelmno is next up in scale, with 152,000 victims. 145,000 of them died in 1941-2 and were cremated over the winter of 1942-3. 7,000 more died in 1944 and were cremated over the second half of 1944. There doesn't seem to be a problem with scale here. The grave sites have been retraced using modern archaeological methods in recent decades.

Sobibor follows, with between 170,000 and 250,000 victims killed from May 1942 to October 1943. Cremation began in late 1942 and the site was still occupied in the spring of 1944. There doesn't seem to be a problem with scale here. Again, the grave sites have been traced using modern archaeological methods in recent decades, and we have rather striking aerial photos in which the outline of the graves is visible from the air, due to the difference in colour of the grass.

Can Dogzilla advance a convincing argument regarding scale with these camps?

It may be surprising, but Belzec isn't next. In fact it's the Brzezinka woods at Birkenau. in 1942-3 killings took place at Auschwitz in the Bunkers, with the bodies buried in mass graves until the autumn of 1942, then they began to use cremation. The same woodland area was used to inter Soviet POWs and regular inmates who died from other causes. The number buried and cremated in this complex of graves is over 250,000 in 1942-3; 10s of 1000s who couldn't be cremated in the single crematorium in Auschwitz I and nearly a quarter of a million who were gassed. Cremation work went on all winter and ended at an unknown time in the spring of 1943. The site was reused in August 1943 to kill and cremate a portion of the 30,000 Jews deported from Sosnowitz and Bedzin.

The same site was then reused in 1944 to kill and cremate a portion of the 330,000 Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz and selected to be murdered. The precise number is unknown and unknowable, but could be anything up to 100,000. So the total number who were killed and cremated in or around the Brzezinka woods could be as much as 400,000. It is probably a little less, but this places the site well above Sobibor and approaching Belzec. The time-frame stretched over 3 years and thus, it would be curious to see if Dogzilla can identify 'scale' as a convincing argument against the mass killings and mass cremation there.

We have a fairly exact number for Belzec, 434,000. Cremation again took many months and may have involved a very large workforce according to new evidence identified by Dieter Pohl. The site was investigated using modern archaeological methods recently and 33 mass graves were identified with a considerable volume.

The crematoria of Auschwitz-Birkenau consumed a larger number of victims than Belzec. The number incinerated in Krematorium I is in the low 10s of 1000s, maybe 30-40,000. Most were incinerated in Kremas II-V, which together had more muffles than most of the rest of the KZ system combined. In 1943 about 150,000 were cremated there, in the first four months of 1944 some 10s of 1000s, then from May to July 1944, the crematoria worked overtime to incinerate part of the 330,000 Hungarian Jews. The capacity of the crematoria was insufficient to cope with this number, so not only was the Brzezinka site reactivated, but five open air pits were set up around Krema V, which incinerated 10s of 1000s of bodies in the open. We know this was so because of aerial and ground level photos, among other sources (including contemporary Nazi documents).

So "Auschwitz" actually breaks down into
a) Krematorium I
b) Brzezinka site, 1942-3
c) Brzezinka site, 1944
d) open air pits near Krema V, 1944
e) Kremas II-V

Of just over 1 million victims claimed by the camp complex, not more than 50-60% were cremated in the four big new crematoria. The peak of killing saw no fewer than three sites in use.

The single largest site is thus Treblinka, where 780,000 victims died from July 1942 to August 1943, while the site itself remained operational for clean-up until at least November. In 1943, 713,000 people were deported to the camp, of whom several thousand were selected to work at the nearby Treblinka labour camp. Several thousand more were shot at the 'Lazarett' which was already a cremation site in the summer of 1942. There were apparently several thousand bodies littering the forecourt of the camp when it collapsed under Eberl, and these also seem to have been thrown into the 'Lazarett' fire. Thus under 700,000 bodies had to be buried in the mass graves. There were limited experiments with cremation in late 1942, but serious cremation did not begin until March. By the time of the revolt in August, most but not all of the bodies had been incinerated, so the total time-frame was up to 9 months, the bulk in 6 months.

By now, Dogzilla is probably absolutely dying to repeat his personal incredulity over Treblinka, but he shot himself in the foot by bringing up 'scale'. First he has to discuss all the other sites and specify at what point arguments about scale come into play.

And only arguments about scale. No moving of goalposts, no switching of tacks.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
The holohoax is an expensive buffet of lies and liars. The meat and potatoes lie is that the gas chamber nonsense could have taken place.

science
proximity
labor
nobody knew
Click to expand...
It would be interesting to see Clayton Moore try to explain and defend even one of his claims - rather than being always treated to his bizarre melange of incredulity, misunderstanding, parochialism, and vehemence.
 
So Clayton whats your thoughts on the North Korean death camps. 3.5 million victims, I thought you would have some interest
 
Nick Terry said:
Stop lying.
Click to expand...

That would work on a skeptic board, but unfortunately, this board has become a "home" for ignorant liars...

...and for some reason, skeptics here have to prove the liars wrong..the exact opposite of how the scientific method actually works.

As long as this board allows liars to "prosper", then this board is nothing more than a place where any woo can promote their ignorant garbage...


I just can't imagine that's what Randi had in mind when he first associated his name with this board...
 
LemmyCaution said:
It would be interesting to see Clayton Moore try to explain and defend even one of his claims - rather than being always treated to his bizarre melange of incredulity, misunderstanding, parochialism, and vehemence.
Click to expand...

You forgot "lying about providing credible answers".
 
R.A.F. said:
How it must eat away at your soul to have people disagree with your racist lies...
Click to expand...

And not just a few people. EVERYBODY. Not a whole lot of difference between him and his ilk and the Westboro Baptist Church, for example. Sticking to your "faith" in the face of overwhelming disagreement can be honorable. It can also be foolish, ignorant, and arrogant.

Holocaust deniers, like the Westboro idiots, are very much the latter
 
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Nick Terry said:
One of your many dishonesties in this discussion is actually your refusal to consider scale properly. The Nazis used gassing at quite a few different sites, and they also cremated bodies at quite a few different sites. Some involved Jewish victims only, some a mix of Jewish and non-Jewish victims. But pretty much all we ever hear about from you is Treblinka, Treblinka, Treblinka.

It's not like the number of sites where gassing and burning took place is that large, yet for some curious reason deniers always remain unable to discuss the entire set.

So let's consider scale, shall we?

There are probably dozens of sites where bodies of executed Jews were exhumed and cremated in the open air by one or other detachment of Sonderkommando 1005. Mostly near to big cities, whereas very few smaller towns were visited by 1005.

So we know that at Kharkov (12,000 Jewish victims) and Rovno (15,000+ Jewish victims), 1005 didn't visit, and mass graves were exhumed after the war, at sites we have German documents for.

we also know that bodies were exhumed and cremated at:
Pinsk (26,000 victims, documented),
Bronnaia Gora near Brest (17,000+ documented victims)
Mogilev (mixture of Jews, POWs and politicals)
Minsk (various sites, including POW graves)
Kiev-Babi Yar (33,000 Jews, c 15,000 non-Jews)
across much of the Crimea (28,000 Jews, documented)
Riga (various sites, > 40-50,000 Jews)
Kaunas (Fort IX, large)
Vilnius-Ponary (10s of 1000s of Jews)
Lwow-Janowska (10s of 1000s of Jews)
around Bialystok
around Grodno
Krakow (1000s of Jews, 1000s of Polish politicals)
Trawniki and Poniatowa (24,000 Jews)

These were all open-air cremations. The organisation of the exhumations and cremations was devolved to regional SS authorities as well as Blobel's department. Detachments 1005-A and 1005-B existed, but so did other "1005" detachments which were set up locally w/o Blobel's direct involvement. The labour forces came from a mix of Jews and Soviet POWs, so by late 1943 you're talking about probably, several thousand workers operating across multiple locations. We know of several dozen survivors who escaped these detachments, and we have a growing number of documents referring to their activities in various localities, plus proof of involvement of specific SS officers from annotations in their personnel files. The cremations were observed and reported by diarists or underground reports, and all the sites were looked at after liberation, and the graves were identified plus, naturally, cremains.

Since the killings of Jews that took place at these sites were extensively documented by the Nazis in a variety of SS, Police, Army and civil administration reports, the problem in ascertaining numbers comes more often from working out how many non-Jews were shot as resistance sympathisers or activists at these sites, as Sicherheitspolizei reports for the later phase of the occupation are relatively rare.

There are quite a few sites with 10-20,000 victims and several with up to 50,000 (Ponary, Babi Yar, Riga).

I am wondering whether Dogzilla can advance convincing arguments about scale against these sites. (We will ignore outright 'none of it ever happened' trolling and other delaying tactics.)

There are also many concentration camps which claimed similar numbers of victims. Firstly the ones without gas chambers

Buchenwald
Belsen
Flossenbuerg
Gross-Rosen

plus the camps in the Baltic states
Vaivara
Riga-Kaiserwald-Salaspils
Kauen
which overlap with the ghettos and shooting sites, so are less important

and then the camp which had a gas chamber but never used it
Dachau

and then the ones which also operated gas chambers for one of several different purposes (Commissar Order, medical experiments, 'Endphase', executions)

Natzweiler
Ravensbrueck
Stutthof
Sachsenhausen
Mauthausen

All the camps in the Reich had crematoria with a handful of muffles but some became such hell-holes that cremating all the bodies wasn't possible, eg Belsen. Most claimed victims in the 20-40,000 range. Mauthausen, however, claimed 100,000 victims who were virtually all cremated in a relatively small number of muffles in two crematoria, one in the main camp and one in Gusen.

Again one wonders if Dogzilla has an argument based on scale regarding these sites

Then there are the T4 institutes, usign gas chambers and all equipped with, usually, two muffle crematoria. Six institutes at

Hadamar
Bernburg
Sonnenstein
Brandenburg
Grafeneck
Hartheim

where 75,000 psychiatric patients were killed in 1940-41, followed by 15-20,000 concentration camp inmates selected under '14 f 13'. Well-documented, right down to the use of gas as the killing method.

Again one wonders if Dogzilla has any argument about scale against these sites.

Gas was also used at several improvised extermination camps in the form of gas vans. Notably

Semlin near Belgrade (7000+ victims)
Maly Trostinets near Minsk (well over 20,000 victims)

The bodies were later exhumed and cremated, as at other sites where shooting had been used. One can contrast these with exhumations of gas van victims at Smolensk, Krasnodar, Kharkov and a few other localities in the easternmost territories occupied by the Nazis, which were liberated in 1943. There is perfectly good documentary evidence linking gas vans used at Minsk and Belgrade and indeed, evidence linking Minsk and Smolensk.

A variety of methods were used at Majdanek, where 78,000 victims perished. 18,000 were shot in 'Erntefest' in 1943, a number that would have overwhelmed the relatively limited crematoria in the camp, so they were buried and then cremated. Other victims were also buried and then exhumed, eg the Jews of the Lublin ghetto shot in several actions over the course of 1942. Most of the 60,000 other deaths in the camp were 'normal' KZ deaths but there were 1000s who were gassed. 59,000 of the victims were Jews and nearly 20,000 non-Jews.

Again there doesn't seem to be a big problem with scale here.

Already we're talking about 100s of 1000s of victims, more than half a million in the camps in Germany, while a similar number were cremated at the various shooting sites. Meanwhile, well over a million bodies of Jewish victims in the Soviet Union were not cremated and left to be exhumed after liberation.

Chelmno is next up in scale, with 152,000 victims. 145,000 of them died in 1941-2 and were cremated over the winter of 1942-3. 7,000 more died in 1944 and were cremated over the second half of 1944. There doesn't seem to be a problem with scale here. The grave sites have been retraced using modern archaeological methods in recent decades.

Sobibor follows, with between 170,000 and 250,000 victims killed from May 1942 to October 1943. Cremation began in late 1942 and the site was still occupied in the spring of 1944. There doesn't seem to be a problem with scale here. Again, the grave sites have been traced using modern archaeological methods in recent decades, and we have rather striking aerial photos in which the outline of the graves is visible from the air, due to the difference in colour of the grass.

Can Dogzilla advance a convincing argument regarding scale with these camps?

It may be surprising, but Belzec isn't next. In fact it's the Brzezinka woods at Birkenau. in 1942-3 killings took place at Auschwitz in the Bunkers, with the bodies buried in mass graves until the autumn of 1942, then they began to use cremation. The same woodland area was used to inter Soviet POWs and regular inmates who died from other causes. The number buried and cremated in this complex of graves is over 250,000 in 1942-3; 10s of 1000s who couldn't be cremated in the single crematorium in Auschwitz I and nearly a quarter of a million who were gassed. Cremation work went on all winter and ended at an unknown time in the spring of 1943. The site was reused in August 1943 to kill and cremate a portion of the 30,000 Jews deported from Sosnowitz and Bedzin.

The same site was then reused in 1944 to kill and cremate a portion of the 330,000 Hungarian Jews deported to Auschwitz and selected to be murdered. The precise number is unknown and unknowable, but could be anything up to 100,000. So the total number who were killed and cremated in or around the Brzezinka woods could be as much as 400,000. It is probably a little less, but this places the site well above Sobibor and approaching Belzec. The time-frame stretched over 3 years and thus, it would be curious to see if Dogzilla can identify 'scale' as a convincing argument against the mass killings and mass cremation there.

We have a fairly exact number for Belzec, 434,000. Cremation again took many months and may have involved a very large workforce according to new evidence identified by Dieter Pohl. The site was investigated using modern archaeological methods recently and 33 mass graves were identified with a considerable volume.

The crematoria of Auschwitz-Birkenau consumed a larger number of victims than Belzec. The number incinerated in Krematorium I is in the low 10s of 1000s, maybe 30-40,000. Most were incinerated in Kremas II-V, which together had more muffles than most of the rest of the KZ system combined. In 1943 about 150,000 were cremated there, in the first four months of 1944 some 10s of 1000s, then from May to July 1944, the crematoria worked overtime to incinerate part of the 330,000 Hungarian Jews. The capacity of the crematoria was insufficient to cope with this number, so not only was the Brzezinka site reactivated, but five open air pits were set up around Krema V, which incinerated 10s of 1000s of bodies in the open. We know this was so because of aerial and ground level photos, among other sources (including contemporary Nazi documents).

So "Auschwitz" actually breaks down into
a) Krematorium I
b) Brzezinka site, 1942-3
c) Brzezinka site, 1944
d) open air pits near Krema V, 1944
e) Kremas II-V

Of just over 1 million victims claimed by the camp complex, not more than 50-60% were cremated in the four big new crematoria. The peak of killing saw no fewer than three sites in use.

The single largest site is thus Treblinka, where 780,000 victims died from July 1942 to August 1943, while the site itself remained operational for clean-up until at least November. In 1943, 713,000 people were deported to the camp, of whom several thousand were selected to work at the nearby Treblinka labour camp. Several thousand more were shot at the 'Lazarett' which was already a cremation site in the summer of 1942. There were apparently several thousand bodies littering the forecourt of the camp when it collapsed under Eberl, and these also seem to have been thrown into the 'Lazarett' fire. Thus under 700,000 bodies had to be buried in the mass graves. There were limited experiments with cremation in late 1942, but serious cremation did not begin until March. By the time of the revolt in August, most but not all of the bodies had been incinerated, so the total time-frame was up to 9 months, the bulk in 6 months.

By now, Dogzilla is probably absolutely dying to repeat his personal incredulity over Treblinka, but he shot himself in the foot by bringing up 'scale'. First he has to discuss all the other sites and specify at what point arguments about scale come into play.

And only arguments about scale. No moving of goalposts, no switching of tacks.
Click to expand...

Lies, lies, and more lies. After 50 years of adjustments after realizing there were no gas chambers in Germany is this the final tally/answer?

Is the testimony of the Maus main character the most credible survivor testimony for you nick?

The idiocy of this, I should say one of the idiocies, is who oversaw all of the above 24/7?

After a year of slaughtering Jewish people in the close proximity of Jewish children, women, and men and resident workers at close by industries how did complete chaos not become the norm?

The Germans kill millions in the camps and somehow the camp residents remain calm and it's business as usual?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Lies, lies, and more lies...
Click to expand...


Wow, what a fact-based rebuttal! The length and breadth of the sources you cited in your response was astounding! The time it must have taken you to compile that compendium of sources and to laboriously create the list of individual citations!

Oh, wait, you did none of that. Never mind.
 
Clayton Moore said:
After a year of slaughtering Jewish people in the close proximity of Jewish children, women, and men and resident workers at close by industries how did complete chaos not become the norm?
Click to expand...

You ever had a loaded gun pointed at your head, Clayton?
 
I don't think Dr. Terry said anything about Maus. I did. We don't just use one single piece of testimony. Sorry.

Dogzilla, I mentioned the comic book format of the narrative because I assumed you wpuld be naturally ignorant of that too. I knew that Moore like beings would also seize upon it and make a fuss.

I'm amazed you don't know of Shmuel Spector, you should read it as a .pdf. You should also have a look at the work of Yad in Unum if you do not understand how many bullets can fit into one crate. You don't seem to keep up with anything much Dogzilla. If you rely on "Revisionists" for your information, you'll never get anywhere.

Hand waving whilst yelling "lies lies lies," is all you ever do Clayton. You convince no one,

An obviously authoritative piece was presented, and you freaked out. Why bother copying and pasting NTs material above. You are singularly incapable of addressing any part of it.

You may as well copy and paste your last shopping list into the thread and then add your BS about "Maus," "one credible survivor," "overseers" and that last ignorant question, for all the difference you make to this thread.

And you keep extensively editing your posts which is irritating.
 
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