Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[Alt+F4]

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that nothing wrong happened, I am saying that many people hurt are themselves partially to blame. It may feel nice to blame the sub prime lender who gave you a mortgage for your home loss after you lied to them about your income and they did a poor underwriting job and didn't discover that.

I don't think many people lied. They weren't asked about their income or debt and were not required to disclose it to get one of these toxic mortgages. Many of these mortgages were 0% down, no questions asked. While I don't think they lied I do think they have to take responsibility for being stupid enough to take on a mortgage they couldn't possibly repay. As for the mortgage brokers, they are the one that should be investigated for fraud and predatory lending.

 

[RandFan]

To be perfectly frank, people who lost their homes did not pay their debts back. It is a common criticism that lenders gave loans they should have known wouldn't likely be paid back, and it is clearly a valid one, but it doesn't also follow to complain that people who couldn't pay back their mortgages lost the collateral.

The banks didn't suffer a loss. Public money bailed them out. In fact, the money was supposed to help save people's homes. It didn't. You have a point but again, the govt worked to protect the banks from their bad decisions and nothing for the people. But, you miss an important point, it drove the market of homes down. My mother didn't get a bad loan. She lost her investments and sold to make ends meet and after twenty years of paying a mortgage she sold it for what she paid for it. That hurt my mother who lived a life doing what was right. She and my father saved and invested and because of the activities of these a holes she was harmed. And no govt gave her a bail out.

For instance, he whines that no one at Lehman Brothers went to prison for the Repo 105 accounting business but fails to mention that there were several investigations into it and government agencies felt that they could not prove a case of fraud in court.

It was admitted that the records for the investigations were destroyed. And you want me to think Matt is simply engaging in CT?

No stats, just judging from the signs I have seen them waving around the country.

I will ask again, how do you control for confirmation bias? I'm sorry but I'm not impressed with your impressions and at the end of the day it's still ad hominem.

 

[Neally]

Come on. I find this so dishonest. Can't we just accept that people are pissed off at the high unemployment rate and the @#$%ing we got when the banks and financial institutions lubed us up and bent us over without so much as a kiss?

Sure, people are pissed off, I stated they are mad in my post, but clearly they have not directed that anger into any sort of rational political action. If they did, they'd be focusing on the steps of the white house and congress, not on wall street. Oh and be less focused on drumming circles and puppet making. Therefore I see the movement as more of a protest for the sake of protest, rather than anything else.

Do me a favor, please, don't pull that here?

I stand by my description of them.

 

[RandFan]

Sure, people are pissed off, I stated they are mad in my post, but clearly they have not directed that anger into any sort of rational political action.

Yet politicians are standing up and taking notice and beginning to change their attitudes about them. They are doing just fine. BTW: You said dismissively:

With the lack of anti-Bush/anti-War events there has been a built up demand for something to rally against.

Yeah, that's really understanding that they are angry for their govt bending over for the rich fat cats that screwed them.

If they did, they'd be focusing on the steps of the white house and congress, not on wall street. Oh and be less focused on drumming circles and puppet making. Therefore I see the movement as more of a protest for the sake of protest, rather than anything else.

You see what you want to see. But that's fine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. They are changing the discussion and people are taking notice. They really don't need your approval.

I stand by my description of them.

Then I can't take you seriously. In my 10 years and 30,000 posts I've only said this once or twice but you render yourself a troll when you are unwilling to be reasonable. When you state that all these people just don't have anything better to do. That is in my opinion either trolling for effect or just flat out dishonest. You don't have to agree with them to respect that they are not happy with the way they've been treated for the last decade. 10 years of Bush's tax cuts have not helped get the stock market moving or increase GDP significantly. The deregulation has wiped out the housing market and savings. People who did nothing wrong have been #$%@ and all you can do is be dismissive of them. That takes chutzpa.

 

[bikerdruid]

Sure, people are pissed off, I stated they are mad in my post, but clearly they have not directed that anger into any sort of rational political action. If they did, they'd be focusing on the steps of the white house and congress, not on wall street. Oh and be less focused on drumming circles and puppet making. Therefore I see the movement as more of a protest for the sake of protest, rather than anything else.

I stand by my description of them.

if the white house was really in charge, perhaps they would protest there.
money controls the country. wall street controls the money.

 

[RandFan]

Bill Maher's take of OWS.

 

[Alt+F4]

if the white house was really in charge, perhaps they would protest there.
money controls the country. wall street controls the money.

Neither the largest bank (Bank of America) or the largest corporation (Wal-Mart) in the United States has their headquarters in NYC. There isn't even one single Wal-mart store in the entire City of New York.

As for the other large banks who are headquartered in NYC (JPMorgan Chase and Citibank) they are in midtown, not on Wall Street!

 

[bikerdruid]

Neither the largest bank (Bank of America) or the largest corporation (Wal-Mart) in the United States has their headquarters in NYC. There isn't even one single Wal-mart store in NYC.

As for the other large banks who are headquartered in NYC (JPMorgan Chase and Citibank) they are in midtown, not on Wall Street!

are you really that dense?
wall street symbolizes american finance.

 

[respect]

The banks didn't suffer a loss. Public money bailed them out. In fact, the money was supposed to help save people's homes. It didn't. You have a point but again, the govt worked to protect the banks from their bad decisions and nothing for the people. But, you miss an important point, it drove the market of homes down. My mother didn't get a bad loan. She lost her investments and sold to make ends meet and after twenty years of paying a mortgage she sold it for what she paid for it. That hurt my mother who lived a life doing what was right. She and my father saved and invested and because of the activities of these a holes she was harmed. And no govt gave her a bail out.

Honestly, I have a hard time believing that the recent backslide in property values undid 20 years of equity, unless maybe it is a rural property where typical gains are very small compared to developed areas. Also, why did she lose her investments?

It was admitted that the records for the investigations were destroyed. And you want me to think Matt is simply engaging in CT?

Link please. I read about it in a few newspaper articles after reading his article, they seemed to have no trouble reporting what happened and interviewing investigators. It seems like investigators destroying records would be news, perhaps I didn't look deep enough.

I will ask again, how do you control for confirmation bias? I'm sorry but I'm not impressed with your impressions and at the end of the day it's still ad hominem.

It is certainly not an ad hominem attack, these protests do contain the bozos I discussed. If they are simply clowns hanging on coattails it isn't clear because the rest aren't being clear about what they are mad about and want. Really, you have just assumed what they are upset about, there is no organizational ability to determine what they are mad about and what they want.

 

[Alt+F4]

are you really that dense?
wall street symbolizes american finance.

Ok, you go on symbols, I'll go on reality. None of the OWS protestors are actually occupying Wall Street, the vast majority of people who work on Wall Street are not "Evil Millionaire Bankers", they are just working folks, you know, part of the 99%.

You want to go after someone try Alice Walton, not my friend who works as a reccptionist in an office on Wall Street. BTW, Alice Walton neither works or lives on Wall Street.

 

[bikerdruid]

Ok, you go on symbols, I'll go on reality. None of the OWS protestors are actually occupying Wall Street, the vast majority of people who work on Wall Street are not "Evil Millionaire Bankers", they are just working folks, you know, part of the 99%.

You want to go after someone try Alice Walton, not my friend who works as a reccptionist in an office on Wall Street. BTW, Alice Walton neither works or lives on Wall Street.

you have a talent for missing the obvious.
they are protesting against the monolith of american finance.
this is symbolized by wall street.

 

[RandFan]

Honestly, I have a hard time believing that the recent backslide in property values undid 20 years of equity

Dude, homes selling for $400,000 here were going for less than $100,000. That's a fact. Here's a chart for Irvine CA, my mother's home was in Palmdale CA.

...these protests do contain the bozos I discussed...

Oh please, I stepped up and defended the tea party protestors and made it clear that it was unfair to judge them all on a few crack pots. I was no fan o of the Tea Party but I stood up for their right to protest and not be dismissed out of hand. Jeez.

I'll get you the link.

 

[Virus]

You can go to jail for stealing someone's wallet. Gamble thousands of people's pensions on shaky mortgages and the govt will bail you out and let you collect a huge bonus.

Name the law, name an individual and prove they broke it then.

 

[respect]

I don't think many people lied. They weren't asked about their income or debt and were not required to disclose it to get one of these toxic mortgages. Many of these mortgages were 0% down, no questions asked. While I don't think they lied I do think they have to take responsibility for being stupid enough to take on a mortgage they couldn't possibly repay. As for the mortgage brokers, they are the one that should be investigated for fraud and predatory lending.

Agreed to an extent, but it is that many lenders didn't adequately investigate that the answers to the questions they asked were accurate. My first job out of college was at a place that lent out mortgages, the specifics can stay anonymous on a message board, it is sufficient to say that they only lent to people likely to pay back (good credit, low loan to value etc) and probably more than 95% of applicants had blatantly fraudulent information on their loan applications, whether they wanted an original loan or to refinance they lied constantly, this place did sufficient underwriting to weed them out but we constantly lost salesmen to places who did little to no underwriting because they could earn more commissions at those places.

To be clear, that wouldn't have happened without the absurd overestimates of mortgage backed securities. Virtually all lenders participate in secondary markets, many banks will not give, and have never given, subprime loans, but they will buy them in secondary markets. The mortgage industry has secondary markets on top of secondary markets with the securities and derivatives. For the most part, this is the area that many big financial players got themselves in trouble in. Without the secondary markets the subprime lenders would quickly be out of money, if they can't sell the loans, they quickly run out of capital to make new loans. When the **** hit the fan it wasn't generally that banks held bad mortgages, it was that they held bad securities based off of those mortgages and couldn't sell them anymore as there was no buyers, the capital invested was dead and they were overleveraged.

 

[respect]

Dude, homes selling for $400,000 here were going for less than $100,000. That's a fact. Here's a chart for Irvine CA, my mother's home was in Palmdale CA.

Perhaps it is because of the October Fest thing I was at before and the billion beers I drank today, but I'm not seeing that on your chart.

Oh please, I stepped up and defended the tea party protestors and made it clear that it was unfair to judge them all on a few crack pots. I was no fan o of the Tea Party but I stood up for their right to protest and not be dismissed out of hand. Jeez.

I'll get you the link.

The Tea Party had a bunch of nuts too, in fact any time one of them gets out of line, we still have a new thread about it here, but they did seem to have some central goals. The Occupy Wall Street movement has not central agenda, what the hell am I supposed to assume they want if I am to ignore the sings they carry and what the members talk about to the press?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't think many people lied. They weren't asked about their income or debt and were not required to disclose it to get one of these toxic mortgages. Many of these mortgages were 0% down, no questions asked. While I don't think they lied I do think they have to take responsibility for being stupid enough to take on a mortgage they couldn't possibly repay. As for the mortgage brokers, they are the one that should be investigated for fraud and predatory lending.

You buy the common narrative, the borrowers were aware of what they were getting. But the reality is quite different in many cases.

FBI report on Mortgage Fraud
From the Overview:

In 2009, the continuing deterioration of the real estate market and the dramatic rise in mortgage delinquencies and foreclosures helped fuel the financial crisis and exposed fraudulent practices that were prevalent throughout the mortgage industry....

...Mortgage fraud schemes employ some type of material misstatement,
misrepresentation, or omission relating to the property or potential borrower which is relied on by an underwriter or lender to fund, purchase, or insure a loan. These misstatements, misrepresentations, or omissions are indicative of mortgage fraud and include the following:

Inflated Appraisals
Fictitious/Stolen Identities
Nominee/Straw Buyers
False Loan Application
Fraudulent Supporting Loan Documentation
Kickbacks

Although there are many different types of schemes, mortgage fraud can be summarized as a form of bank robbery where the bank is not even aware it has been robbed until months or years later. Mortgage fraud perpetrators often obtain loans based on falsely representing the value of the collateral or their qualifications to receive the loan and steal the proceeds without an intention of repaying the borrowed funds. Lending institutions are subsequently left holding the inflated collateral and incurring significant losses.

First, one has to ask, why weren't the banks aware of what they were getting?

While that sounds like the borrowers were the deceivers, it was in fact, the brokers and they deceived the borrowers as well as the lenders. Borrowers can indeed be responsible, but they are not always:

Current investigations and widespread reporting indicate a high percentage of mortgage fraud involves collusion by industry insiders, such as appraisers, mortgage brokers, attorneys, loan originators, and other professionals engaged in the industry. Fraud for Housing typically represents illegal actions conducted solely by the borrower, who is motivated to acquire and maintain ownership of a house under false pretenses such as misrepresented income and asset information on a loan application.

If the fraudulent broker sends you an appraiser who tells you your house if worth more when it is really worth less the borrower can be misled. A balloon payment or a sharp increase in the rate was hidden from some borrowers. You trust the broker is giving you an honest summary of the loan papers. I've purchased 3 homes and refinanced numerous times. I trusted the brokers to be honest. I read the papers but it is easy to miss something in pages of fine print of legalese.

Some borrowers were literally deceived. It wasn't all about greedy borrowers seeking more credit than they could afford.

 

[Alt+F4]

You can go to jail for stealing someone's wallet.

Yes you can and I think it would be considered at least grand larceny in the fourth degree under the NYC penal code (section 155.30), a E non-violent felony.

Why can't anyone identify what NYC penal code section was broken by these evil Wall Street bankers?

 

[respect]

Why can't anyone identify what NYC penal code section was broken by these evil Wall Street bankers?

They haven't crapped in enough doorways, duh.

 

[Alt+F4]

Some borrowers were literally deceived. It wasn't all about greedy borrowers seeking more credit than they could afford.

I agree that some/many borrowers were deceived. Was it criminal? I've read investigations that say both yes and no. What I have not seen is any evidence of criminal behavior on the part of the CEOs of the big banks. If there was criminal behavior, it seems to be on the part of the mortgage brokers. Oh noes, they are part of the 99%!

 

[respect]

I agree that some/many borrowers were deceived. Was it criminal? I've read investigations that say both yes and no. What I have not seen is any evidence of criminal behavior on the part of the CEOs of the big banks. If there was criminal behavior, it seems to be on the part of the mortgage brokers. Oh noes, they are part of the 99%!

Just crap in your neighbor's lawn and you will get it.