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Why science and religion are not compatible

Read some geology. While some of the language SOUNDS circumspect and tentative, once you understand the jargon you realize that it's actually quite viceous and nasty at times.

I dare say that when Pauling read the DNA paper, he might well have sworn and thrown it at the wall. The knives go in in their own way. However, the circumspect language is careful for a reason. Any rebuttal of a scientific theory has to be phrased in scientific language. It's not a matter of politeness. It's a matter of practicing science.
 
So when other individual scientists disagree with the researchers' conclusions we would say that science conflicts with science?
You say either the evidence is equivocal, or you note there are a few outliers (scientists with extreme positions), or whatever the facts support.

Is there a scientific position that the evidence supports the existence of gods or other magical creatures?
 
I don't suppose many do accept all of those things, but I get your meaning.

What would you propose as a scientific test for a one-off miracle that happened centuries ago?
Depends on the miracle, and the evidence pro, con or nonexistent.

The things one would expect to find but which are not found in the Old Testament, for example, are evidence the god belief underlying all three of the religions you cited is a myth. The things found in the OT suggest no supernatural influence was involved, ergo no real god only a fictional one.
 
I'm good with that. Of course, I'm distinguishing the process of science - which is whatever gets the job done - with the conclusions of science - which are expressed as published papers. (And conferences typically involve published papers, as noted). So if clarification were needed, voila.
Have you ever tried to track down the data in one of GSA's Abstracts with Programs? I have--it's a nightmare. The data are there, and are commonly referenced by scientists who were at the talks. But the abstracts themselves are something of a joke: many scientists post some abstract, with a vague notion of actually finishing the research before the conference, but end up presenting another talk all together. Makes figuring out what talks to attend all kinds of fun, and it makes tracking down that data so you can do a BLM PFYC analysis even more brain-trauma-inducing.

You know, I wonder what they'd say about making those sessions into a podcast or the like? But anyway, I digress...

The simple fact of the matter is that science is far, far more than merely what's in the peer reviewed literature. It's trivially easy for anyone to find well-respected scientists complaining about well-known biases in the literature. To pick an example I have some experience with: it's nearly impossible to publish an article explaining a methodology that doesn't work. At the same time, doing so had innumerable practical benefits, ranging from researchers wasting time on something you could easily tell them doesn't work to companies pay millions of dollars to develop methods that won't do what they intend. And if you think that science isn't done over a few drinks during a conference, you're simply delusional. Science is inherently collaborative, and the nature of that collaboration is dictated by social pressures--in other words, having a few drinks with someone may open up possibilities that would otherwise not only be closed, but frankly invisible to a researcher. Half the reason to attend conferences is the socialization aspect. And a lot of science remains unpublished--to the point where the people who actually put the science to use, the engineers and the consultants and the like, are told very early on in their career that peer-reviewed publication isn't the only place to find data, and that in many ways they themselves constitute peer review. If you don't believe me, try to get a BLM Paleontological Resources Survey permit for a Basin and Range valley without talking to the guys who do hobby collection. You'll get laughed at.

However, the circumspect language is careful for a reason. Any rebuttal of a scientific theory has to be phrased in scientific language. It's not a matter of politeness. It's a matter of practicing science.
I'm sorry, but I have to ask your qualifications for telling me how to discuss science. Because I've flat-out told academic researchers that they were wrong--quite literally, and in documents that I know they at least have the opportunity to read. It seems odd that you're telling me that I didn't do what I did. I distinctly remember doing it.

Absence of proof vs. proof of absence.
The counter to that whole false dichotomy is the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is, properly, "there's nothing to explain". Only once you've demonstrated that there's something to explain are you justified in explaining it--and "it's a miracle!" is an explanation, all be it a very poor one.
 
No, but science has reached conclusions that are incompatible with religious conclusions.

It's a matter of degree I suppose. Certainly believing the creationism, or that the exodus took place, is contrary to science.

That is the point.

You are setting up a strawman here. I don't think anyone claimed that. You can find scientists believing all sorts of weird things, like creationism, steady state universe etc. That doesn't make those beliefs scientifically grounded.
I'm aware it's not what anyone specifically claimed. My point is really one about the language being used. Some "contrary conclusions" carries a different connotation from claiming that something is "incompatible", particularly as science is really not incompatible with disagreements. In fact, it should welcome them in most cases.

Some religions or religious people may take issue with scientific discoveries. Others may welcome them as getting a better understanding of the mind of God or a new way to interpret scriptures.
 
The counter to that whole false dichotomy is the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is, properly, "there's nothing to explain". Only once you've demonstrated that there's something to explain are you justified in explaining it--and "it's a miracle!" is an explanation, all be it a very poor one.

The key word there is "hypothesis".
 
You say either the evidence is equivocal, or you note there are a few outliers (scientists with extreme positions), or whatever the facts support.

Is there a scientific position that the evidence supports the existence of gods or other magical creatures?
While there's evidence that can be used to support arguments either way on the issue, I'm not aware of something I would actually call a scientific position.
Depends on the miracle, and the evidence pro, con or nonexistent.

The things one would expect to find but which are not found in the Old Testament, for example, are evidence the god belief underlying all three of the religions you cited is a myth. The things found in the OT suggest no supernatural influence was involved, ergo no real god only a fictional one.
Yes, if we can know we're not seeing something we'd expect to see, that's when we can say we have evidence that something didn't happen or doesn't exist. The problem is figuring out what it is we would expect to see. I would think that becomes a largely philosophical (and in this case theological) discussion.

Loving the new avatar btw :egglaugh:
 
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The supernatural aspects of religions are incompatible with current scientific understanding.
I would have thought it was when religions made statements about the natural rather than the supernatural that science has something to say on the matter.

Unless we're talking about being incompatible in a way other than Humes fork has described.
 
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No, but science has reached conclusions that are incompatible with religious conclusions.

It's a matter of degree I suppose. Certainly believing the creationism, or that the exodus took place, is contrary to science.

"Science"? No.

"Most scientists?" Fair enough- Yes.
 
While there's evidence that can be used to support arguments either way on the issue, I'm not aware of something I would actually call a scientific position.
There isn't one. It's one thing to hypothesize something like irreducible complexity. But when you try to hypothesize intelligent design you run into problems with the scientific process itself. The point is, 'scientists who disagree' is a qualitatively different issue than the conflict between religions and science. Scientists coming to different conclusions about the interpretation of evidence is not 'science' conflicting with 'science'. One would need to have scientific evidence the scientific process was wrong to be the analogy you are trying to use.

Yes, if we can know we're not seeing something we'd expect to see, that's when we can say we have evidence that something didn't happen or doesn't exist. The problem is figuring out what it is we would expect to see. I would think that becomes a largely philosophical (and in this case theological) discussion.
It's not hard to figure out what should be there but what isn't. The Bible is supposed to be at a minimum, inspired by a real god. I expect a real god to know there were other people in the world besides the ones where the Bible originated. I expect a real god to have not made such blatant errors regarding the Moon. I expect a real god to suggest hand washing to control infection rather than the silly rituals in Leviticus that were supposed to prevent disease. According to the Bible, God gave those silly instructions directly.

Loving the new avatar btw :egglaugh:
Credit goes to our resident Halloween avatar master, Zax63. :D
 
There isn't one. It's one thing to hypothesize something like irreducible complexity. But when you try to hypothesize intelligent design you run into problems with the scientific process itself. The point is, 'scientists who disagree' is a qualitatively different issue than the conflict between religions and science. Scientists coming to different conclusions about the interpretation of evidence is not 'science' conflicting with 'science'. One would need to have scientific evidence the scientific process was wrong to be the analogy you are trying to use.
In cases where people hold a literal interpretation of whatever scripture as having more authority than scientific discoveries, I'd agree. In what other way might it be a qualitative difference, or does that cover it?
It's not hard to figure out what should be there but what isn't. The Bible is supposed to be at a minimum, inspired by a real god. I expect a real god to know there were other people in the world besides the ones where the Bible originated. I expect a real god to have not made such blatant errors regarding the Moon. I expect a real god to suggest hand washing to control infection rather than the silly rituals in Leviticus that were supposed to prevent disease. According to the Bible, God gave those silly instructions directly.
It's not a matter of how hard you think it might be to figure out. Here you've just entered the realm of speculation, theology and philosophy. If I was to disagree as to what we should expect to find, could you back your arguments up with evidence?
 
In cases where people hold a literal interpretation of whatever scripture as having more authority than scientific discoveries, I'd agree. In what other way might it be a qualitative difference, or does that cover it?

It's not a matter of how hard you think it might be to figure out. Here you've just entered the realm of speculation, theology and philosophy. If I was to disagree as to what we should expect to find, could you back your arguments up with evidence?
Let me put it another way: a disagreement within science is not the same as god and other fictional beliefs being incompatible with science.

As for the realm of speculation, nonsense. If a god inspired the Bible there should be some evidence of something in that Bible which is evidence of a god's inspiration. I suggested a couple tests. The Bible fails those tests.

Care to suggest a test for supernatural input the Bible might pass?
 
Let me put it another way: a disagreement within science is not the same as god and other fictional beliefs being incompatible with science.
How would you see them differing?

As for the realm of speculation, nonsense. If a god inspired the Bible there should be some evidence of something in that Bible which is evidence of a god's inspiration. I suggested a couple tests. The Bible fails those tests.

Care to suggest a test for supernatural input the Bible might pass?
I can't think of anything that would stand up to scientific rigour, but then again you've switched the argument with that question. For what you were arguing, I need only to dispute your expectations.
 
How would you see them differing?
Re your false analogy, science contradicting science vs science contradicting god beliefs, You are confusing some basic principles here.

Within science, different interpretations of the evidence are allowed. You follow the evidence to a conclusion. Any conflict between different conclusions is allowable because there is an implied truth and we accept that the evidence will eventually resolve the conflict.

With god beliefs, you start with the conclusion and if the evidence contradicts it, you go with the belief over the evidence. The two processes, science and religion, are completely different and not compatible. You can't follow the evidence and ignore it at the same time.

I can't think of anything that would stand up to scientific rigour, but then again you've switched the argument with that question. For what you were arguing, I need only to dispute your expectations.
I'm not changing any arguments. I'm trying to get you to see what you cannot see in what I've posted. Such is the nature of our brain processes.

Let's go back to the origin of this discussion track:
Egg said:
What would you propose as a scientific test for a one-off miracle that happened centuries ago?
SG said:
Depends on the miracle, and the evidence pro, con or nonexistent.

The things one would expect to find but which are not found in the Old Testament, for example, are evidence the god belief underlying all three of the religions you cited is a myth. The things found in the OT suggest no supernatural influence was involved, ergo no real god only a fictional one.
You are trying to argue that my hypothesis is speculation. That is the nature of an hypothesis. One proposes [X evidence] will show [Y conclusion].

To support said hypothesis one might need to discuss the rationale why/how [X evidence] shows [Y conclusion]. I'm not going to do that here. I don't need to. It is not my original hypothesis. It is a well known hypothesis and the legitimacy of it is widely accepted. So I'm not going off on this side track with you in this thread.

I have provided an example for how one could test a "one-off miracle". Feel free to cite another "one-off miracle" and I'll be happy to discuss another one.
 
...Of course, nothing is to stop you, when you say the word “religion,” from having in mind something like “moral philosophy,” or perhaps “all of nature,” or “a sense of wonder at the universe.” You can use words to mean whatever you want; it’s just that you will consistently be misunderstood by the ordinary-language speakers with whom you are conversing. And what is the point? If you really mean “ethics” when you say “religion,” why not just say “ethics”? Why confuse the subject with all of the connotations that most people (quite understandably) attach to the term — God, miracles, the supernatural, etc.? If Stephen Jay Gould and the AAAS or anyone else wants to stake out a bold claim that ethics and moral philosophy are completely compatible with science, nobody would be arguing with them. The only reason to even think that would be an interesting claim to make is if one really did want to include the traditional supernatural baggage — in which case it’s a non-empty claim, but a wrong one.

- the OP link Discovery blog
I liked many of the points Sean made and it was a worthwhile read. I disagree with the value of a 'purity of language' argument about what we should label religion. Maybe in the internet age we are all doomed to argue semantics. :)

I understand it this way. Science, whatever its methods, reaches its conclusions by placing or accepting limits on what can or can't be true.

Science asks - what could make it NOT true? - and provisionally accepts some things, or provisionally rejects others.

The kind of religion that is incompatible with science accepts no such limits. "All things are possible", even if no supernatural element was involved, is at its very core a religious statement, and one that will lead to destinations far distant than science will reach.

A question to religion then, would be something like - what can not be true? or what are your limits?
 
A question to religion then, would be something like - what can not be true? or what are your limits?


I go back to the question of which religion are you talking about? I think that we naturally fall back on the one we're exposed to the most, Christianity, which is rife with mythology and the supernatural and just assume that is the model that all others follow.

Here's an excerpt from an article on Religious naturalism


Religious naturalism is an approach to spirituality that is devoid of supernaturalism. The focus is on the religious attributes of the universe/Nature, the understanding of it and our response to it (interpretive, spiritual and moral). These provide for the development of an eco-morality. Interest is growing in this modern movement, and, although it has an ancient heritage in many philosophical cultures, it is not currently well defined. Theistic or non-theistic religious naturalism is a basic theological perspective of liberal religion and religious humanism according to some sources.

Religious naturalism is concerned about the meaning of life, but it is equally interested in living daily life in a rational, happy way. An alternative, more human-centric approach, is to look at it as answering the question: "What is the meaning of one's life and does it have a purpose?". It is an approach to understanding the natural world in a religious way and does not offer a detailed system of beliefs or rituals. Religious naturalism also attempts to amalgamate the scientific examination of reality with the subjective sensory experiences of spirituality and aesthetics. As such, it is an objectivity with religious emotional feelings and the aesthetic insights supplied by art, music and literature. It is a promising form of contemporary religious ethics and pluralism responding to the challenges of late modern religious transformations and ecological peril. In so doing, it is emerging as an increasingly plausible and potentially rewarding form of religious moral life consistent with the insights of the natural sciences.


There. Are we happy now?
 
Not knowing how gravity and quantum mechanics work together doesn't impact whether or not a man can rise from the dead,

I'm sure someone has brought this up, but in case they haven't:

The most logical explanation for Jesus rising from the dead could be that Jesus wasn't really dead.

You'd think it would be pretty easy to tell, but in fact it's not: People do get buried alive. Used to, anyway.
 
I'm sure someone has brought this up, but in case they haven't:

The most logical explanation for Jesus rising from the dead could be that Jesus wasn't really dead.

You'd think it would be pretty easy to tell, but in fact it's not: People do get buried alive. Used to, anyway.

Kinda @#&$ up the narrative though.
 

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