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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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little grey rabbit said:
Soldiers with guns - tick.
Peasants arrayed for camera - tick
skulls placed in foreground - tick.

You(r) bog standard Polish Stalinist era agit-prop photo.
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Polish investigation team agreeing with western historians point of view- tick.
No unique Soviet agitation cause against Western assessment of all other evidence, evident at all - tick.
Little Grey Rabbit gets confused where he's heading - tick

Your bog standard level of evidence confusing someone with the brains of rabbit.
 
Matthew Ellard said:
Polish investigation team agreeing with western historians point of view- tick.
No unique Soviet agitation cause against Western assessment of all other evidence, evident at all - tick.
Little Grey Rabbit gets confused where he's heading - tick

Your bog standard level of evidence confusing someone with the brains of rabbit.
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Little Grey Rabbit never has proof for this silliness regarding a claimed Moscow Forgery Factory or Soviet Skull Placing or Commie Jewish-Diary Rewriting or Red Photo Tampering or OSR Manipulation - just the usual insertion of desperate claim into mix of "opportunity" and paranoia. The hysterical method at work. So much might have happened, with enough imagination and leaps of faith, why bother demonstrating what actually did occur?
 
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Dogzilla said:
So....you're saying that people do disappear without a trace? Do you guys even read each other's crap?

But let's take that first guy you said disappeared without a trace. Multiply him by 700,000 and we'll have the beginning of a meaningful comparison.
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And you blew it.

Nobody disappeared at Treblinka without a trace. Plenty of traces left. This is where you guys utterly lose the plot.
 
Dogzilla said:
I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to mention that book. It might be helpful if it weren't so poorly written (or translated) and if it were actually available in print.
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Why would the way in which it is written "help" you to hand wave it away, the way you have just done?

How does wider availability in print (which it is) change your ability lie about the fact that it is, indeed, available in both hard and paper back, in both French and German, as well as the English translation whose quality you feel you can simply assert is sub-par -- offered only because CM does not read either of the other two languages??
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Dogzilla said:
That still leaves millions of people dead in gas chambers.
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... and? It also leaves millions dead outside of them. How many million dead by whatever means does it take before a Holocaust becomes a Holocaust?

And given this, how does one set of millions become the "keystone" and the other not?
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Dogzilla said:
It was you guys and your violent reaction against my rather insignificant win that showed this double standard regarding the holocaust is far more universal.
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The only "violence" involved was the savaging you took over the irrelevance of the two examples you supplied, and your pathetic transparent running from discussing comparisons worthy of the name.
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Dogzilla said:
Well there was that rumor going around that the United Kingdom or maybe the University of Kentucky cancelled holocaust classes for fear of offending Muslim students. Evidently there actually was one school that did modify it's holocaust education so I guess you've been falsified.
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Quite aside from the fact that Muslim prejudices do niot equate to revisionist activism, you seem to have neglected to provide any proof that these 'rumours' were actually true. The story about UK schools turned out to be a fabrication. And lo and behold, a moment's googling reveals that the story about the University of Kentucky was also a hoax.

So no, you've not falsified my claims in the slightest.

Why is it significant that it was Russians?
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I'd have thought that should be obvious, seeing how we are coming up on the 20th anniversary of the collapse of the Soviet Union.

If they support the traditional story, they're wrong.
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And here we see anti-intellectualism at its finest. Having arrived at a predetermined conclusion, Dogzilla proceeds to handwave away the possibility that he might ever learn anything from new research and new publications.

Most authors would like their books to have some relevance. Selling millions of copies and being read by millions of students studying the holocaust is one way of measuring relevance. How many of those books on your list will be relevant? How many of them will even be the "first port of call" for researchers and teachers?
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I'm sorry, but these questions are just too hopelessly retarded and ignorant of the realities of academic research (for any topic) to be worth answering. I suggest you look up argumentum ad populum first, and then consult the review pages of any decent academic journal, in order to grasp how the world actually works.

Yes, if only everybody were stupid enough to doubt a flaming pit of babies.
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Meaningless waffle. Try engaging in discussion for a change instead of seeing posts as opportunities to make pointless quips repeating your prejudices over and over a la Saggy.

Another evening of high brow entertainment, eh?
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For the record, the Dogzilla zombie was stomped on by Laurie Holden's character and finished off using a screwdriver. This seems strangely appropriate, given how many screws you have loose.
 
Nick Terry said:
. . . here we see anti-intellectualism at its finest. . . .these questions are just too hopelessly retarded and ignorant of the realities . . . This seems strangely appropriate, given how many screws you have loose.
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They really are losing it, citing publisher blurbs as evidence and making up tomfoolery about manipulation of photos . . . confusing vehemence and autistic repetition for reason and argumentation.
 
TSR said:
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You've never been to Auschwitz, then, or spoken to anyone that told you the truth about it.

There are bone shards all over. You know, almost as if they had been cremated, and the cremains ground.

And what traces are you expecting to find of the ash that was dumped in the river?

Tell us (this ought to be good) -- what traces "ought there to be" which are missing?
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We know that they didn't go anywhere else, there *are* traces which would be found in the form of train manifests and witness statements -- you know, like the ones that tell us that they were indeed sent there.

And since the traces *do* exist, my recommendation is that you go back to whining that those traces were handled in a different way than traces of other mass murders -- let's say, The Great Crime -- thereby demonstrating that double standard you whine about with a *valid* comparison, very much unlike those comparisons you have thus far tried to draw...
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More and more garbage lies. It's like the Years the Earth Stood Still Movie. You know the one where the Nazis were able to move real fast when dealing with the extermination of millions of Jewish people and millions of others under their sphere of influence without anyone knowing about it.

10,000 a day is a pretty tight schedule. What would have happened if there was a 3 day stoppage somewhere along the ASSEMBLY LINE?

Where would the backup caused by the stoppage be staged?

This should give a clue to the geniuses of the impossibility of coordinating a people intensive, subject and labor, involving millions of PEOPLE.

Don't reply the military. The military wasn't processing the enemy or arranging the schedule of the enemy.
 
Nick Terry said:
Quote:Saggy
Yes, if only everybody were stupid enough to doubt a flaming pit of babies.
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Meaningless waffle. Try engaging in discussion for a change instead of seeing posts as opportunities to make pointless quips repeating your prejudices over and over a la Saggy.


Meaningless waffle. Try engaging in discussion for a change instead of seeing posts as opportunities to make pointless quips repeating your prejudices over and over a la Saggy.
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Saggy speaks of the lies that have imprinted in millions who sympathized with the plight of European Jewish people. Now the imprinting is passed down from parents as automatic hate for anyone Jewish people say hate Jewish people which is reenforced by Holohoax mania proclaiming rough seas of antisemitism and struggling Jewish people.
 
Clayton Moore said:
More and more garbage lies. It's like the Years the Earth Stood Still Movie. You know the one where the Nazis were able to move real fast when dealing with the extermination of millions of Jewish people and millions of others under their sphere of influence without anyone knowing about it.
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... demonstrating yet again a willful ignorance that details *were* known.

You do realize that an attempt to do something, even by your heroes, is not a guarantee that that something will succeed?
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Clayton Moore said:
10,000 a day is a pretty tight schedule. What would have happened if there was a 3 day stoppage somewhere along the ASSEMBLY LINE?

Where would the backup caused by the stoppage be staged?
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You claim these are significant, *you* tell us.

Don't forget to show your work...
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Clayton Moore said:
This should give a clue to the geniuses of the impossibility of coordinating a people intensive, subject and labor, involving millions of PEOPLE.
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You know -- like a war, or deporting millions of people to the east...
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Clayton Moore said:
Don't reply the military. The military wasn't processing the enemy or arranging the schedule of the enemy.
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No, they were coordinating a response to that enemy -- including overcoming the kinds of setbacks you whine would have prevented the Holocaust.

Have you figured out which chamber Pressac refers to as a gaskammer yet? Or are you still waiting to be spoon fed the answer?
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Clayton Moore said:
Saggy speaks of the lies that have imprinted in millions who sympathized with the plight of European Jewish people.
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... and then is completely incapable of actually *documenting* any such lies.

You know, kind of like when you claimed that THHP is a bunch of liars, and continue to this day unable to cite a *single* such lie?
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Clayton Moore said:
Now the imprinting is passed down from parents as automatic hate for anyone Jewish people say hate Jewish people which is reenforced by Holohoax mania proclaiming rough seas of antisemitism and struggling Jewish people.
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I only see deniers showing manic behaviour. Care to try and support your whines about no one hating Jews, your childish use of "Holohoax" to dismiss history, and implication that Jews never struggle?

And while we're at it -- why did you mindlessly parrot Porter's lies about Pressac without even bothering to take a look at the actual book, when you had been spoon fed a link to it?
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Clayton Moore said:
Saggy speaks of the lies that have imprinted in millions who sympathized with the plight of European Jewish people. Now the imprinting is passed down from parents as automatic hate for anyone Jewish people say hate Jewish people which is reenforced by Holohoax mania proclaiming rough seas of antisemitism and struggling Jewish people.
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The words are in English, but that's about it. Does anyone speak Clayton?
 
What do you mean, "like what," you're the genius denying the Holocaust, through Blobel or what ever else you choose to misrepresent the Holocaust with. There is a large amount of evidence. Eye witness testimony, perpetrator testimony, archaeological evidence, contemporary reports of the sites where killings occurred. Diary evidence, documentary evidence, absence of Jews evidence, statistical evidence. Everything that allows the Historian to put a full picture together.

Oh now it's the scale, DZ, higher, lower, you mean more Jews should have been bumped off? Less? None? Lets see now, how many bullets can you fit in an average crate? That was a revelation. So that's already 2 million shot.

It's certainly not up to me to dish it all of that up again for you, is it? That would be Very Boring. As boring as your tedious attempt to boil it all down to Paul Blobel was now. You haven't read Spector's article have you? If you haven't read that Dogzilla, what is the point in embarking upon further discussion of Nazi attempts to efface the physical traces of mass murder?

So be it. As for this peculiar obtuse BS about Maus. These guys hate it because it's very popular. They have their warped A. Wyatt Mann, crap. Nowhere near as talented a draftsman.

Art Spiegelman recorded his father's life story upon tape and supplemented it using hand written notes. He transcribed the conversations he had with his father and began to sketch them out into a comic book format, which is after all just another form of media. And it's not so strange really as the Norman French depicted the victory of Duke William in 1066 through continuous strip cartoon woven tapestry. Granted, without the main characters being animals. However, as for "mice and cats," he is a comic book artist first and foremost and that was his particular medium and he chose to represent people as certain animals. All that is is a merged cartoon with autobiography. As an aside, I don't know if you guys noticed it and all but comic-books grew up some time ago? Some of them have very complex plot structures adult themes and characterisations.

Art needed also psychologically to get to grips with his father's peculiar survivor behaviour where he was living in the "Catskills" in NY State. Whilst at points the metaphor does break down, Art acknowledges this was this case. Nevertheless it was still an extremely effective way to portray the narrative which Spiegelman had collected.

And indeed if they are so apparently lacking in grey matter that I had to explain it to them to that length so that they can finally grasp a comic artist's choice of metaphor to portray Germans as "cats" and Jews as "mice," which making some sort of jabbing @whine-level fuss, is there any real point in discussing things like grown-ups with them?

As an additional piece of information, in a school book upon the History of Jamaica, from 1973 students are asked to depict the every day life of black slaves in the C 18th through the medium of a strip cartoon. Does that mean because that medium of expression was suggested to demonstrate learning and understanding, that there was no black slavery in Jamaica? Of course not. Once again deniers have problems sorting out fact from fiction. Poor dears. I'll be looking for a copy of this new Spiegelman book as I am an admirer of well crafted comic books.
 
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Dogzilla said:
I proved my point. I was challenged to find one example.
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Actually, no. You made a handwaving comment about how the Holocaust was held to a different standard of evidence. That was actually in reply to Sword of Truth. You then received replies from TSR, Kevin Silbstedt, Sword of Truth and myself, only one of these replies asked you for an "example". The problem was that TSR asked you the following:

Perhaps you'd like to offer us an example of this separate standard (remembering not to make statements like "there is no physical evidence") regarding any other mass murder in contemporary history
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From the get go you were asked to demonstrate a double standard in relation to other genocides and mass murders in contemporary history. The best you came up with was a load of waffle about Michael Shermer vis-a-vis Biblical history, which eventually bored everyone to death over the course of what is now more than 50 days of discussion (since the 'standards of evidence' thing was triggered on 1st September).

I found twice as many examples as necessary. That didn't prove that the holocaust is held to a different standard.
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actually you have so far found zero examples of what you were requested to provide. That's after more than 50 days.

It was you guys and your violent reaction against my rather insignificant win that showed this double standard regarding the holocaust is far more universal.
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No it didn't. Whatever abuse you received was entirely deserved, because you very demonstrably proceeded to misrepresent and misunderstand the request from TSR, wilfully refused to discuss the Holocaust in comparison with other mass murders and genocides in contemporary history, and then as your discussion partners became more and more bemused by your deliberate misunderstandings, you try to declare victory based on a blatant strawman and some kind of unspoken assumption whereby your refusal to engage in proper discussion and kicking issues into touch if they start to cramp your arms and prevent the handwaving from keeping you hovering = keeping a discussion going = therefore there must be something to your argument.
 
LSSBB said:
His story, and the documentation of it, are not fiction. Vladek was a real person. You are attacking how he was represented.
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They will attack any aspect of what they disagree with because they are desperate and have no arguments and no evidence. How many times have they run from the chance to demonstrate that the Holocaust is built on "degenerate" or whatever lies? Over and over they have been asked; they have been offered 200 names from which to pick, they have been given some individual names, they have had a name picked from the list of 200, they have been asked about Oscar Strawczynski - and they have nothing to back up their grandstanding and so they quibble about "one name" and lie about what has already been discussed. And then, instead of focusing and giving a coherent answer, they run away and handwave and finally they attack publishers' blurbs, metaphors and genres, and individuals. The piece de resistance is Little Grey Rabbit concocting forgeries and manipulation when he needs them for his house of cards not to collapse. It's a joke by this point.
 
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Originally Posted by little grey rabbit
Soldiers with guns - tick.
Peasants arrayed for camera - tick
skulls placed in foreground - tick.

You(r) bog standard Polish Stalinist era agit-prop photo.
Click to expand...

Please present evidence photo is faked. Oh and assertion is not evidence.
 
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