Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[Neally]

I am disappointed that, like many other "critical thinkers" on this thread, you favor curtain-twitching gossip over rational discussion.

With more stats coming out about the protesters, the so called "fringe" examples that have been posted can't be hand waved away. 1/3 of the protesters support violence to achieve their goals.

 

[bikerdruid]

With more stats coming out about the protesters, the so called "fringe" examples that have been posted can't be hand waved away. 1/3 of the protesters support violence to achieve their goals.

...but violence has not been used.
your point?

 

[Brainster]

The music swells and the noble peasant woman steps forward and abandons her family for the cause:

A married mother of four from Florida ditched her family to become part of the raggedy mob in Zuccotti Park -- keeping the park clean by day and keeping herself warm at night with the help of a young waiter from Brooklyn.

“I’m not planning on going home,” an unapologetic Stacey Hessler, 38, told The Post yesterday.

Thanks, Mom!

 

[Alt+F4]

With this post, you have completely avoided the question, in a rather childish way, as to what the benefits of Wall Street are to the world. In a similar way you avoid facing the reality of white collar crime.

What are you talking about? None of my posts in this thread have had anything to do with Wall Street. My argument is that whatever needs to be corrected, whatever needs reform the druggie drummers in Zuccotti Park aren't going to do it. They now want donations of puppets!

Occupy Wall Streeters got an earful Thursday night from lower Manhattan residents fed up with the revolutionary racket and having their doorsteps used as toilets.
Protesters and homeowners on the perimeter of Zuccotti Park squared off at the raucous meeting of Community Board 1's Financial District and quality of life committees.
"I can't take the noise and garbage," Financial District resident Laura Fernandez said.
The crowd of about 200 seemed evenly divided between lower Manhattan residents demanding an end game to the demonstrations and protesters vowing to fight for as long as it takes for Wall Street greed to end.
"They are defecating on our doorsteps," griped Katherine Hughes, a mom who lives a block from Zuccotti Park.

You are not much of a critical thinker if you seriously think that people who defecate in people's doorways are going to bring about economic reform.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local...0/21/2011-10-21_neighbors_not_protesters.html

 

[Neally]

...but violence has not been used.
your point?

I thought my point was pretty clear. Here it is again. The so called examples of "fringe" elements in the protesters are being found not to be so fringe. One example is the fact that 1/3 of the protestors support violence to support their goals. 1/3 of a population is not fringe.

 

[Checkmite]

Sure. And in the meantime, I think we should discuss it without resorting to guilt by association fallacies.

If OWS can "come together in one voice" to condemn Wall Street, they can "come together in one voice" to disown those advocating violence, neo-nazis, rampant theft, and hangers-on who are only there for free food.

 

[Alt+F4]

If OWS can "come together in one voice" to condemn Wall Street, they can "come together in one voice" to disown those advocating violence, neo-nazis, rampant theft, and hangers-on who are only there for free food.

The problem is they won't disown anyone. The local community board came to them with a very reasonable request: cut the drumming down from 10 hours a day to 2 hours a day. They can't even achieve that so how can anyone expect them to do anything about Wall Street?

 

[Ziggurat]

This just keeps getting better and better.

As the communal sleeping bag argument between Lauren Digion and Sage Roberts threatened to get out of hand, a facilitator in a red hat walked by, brow furrowed. “Remember? You’re not allowed to do any more interviews,” he said to Digion. She nodded and went back to work. But when Roberts shouted, “Don’t tell me what to do!” Digion couldn't hold back.

“Someone has to be told what to do," she said. "Someone needs to give orders. There’s no sense of order in this ******* place.”

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." - Animal Farm

"You [screwed] up... you trusted us!" - Animal House

 

[Alt+F4]

This just keeps getting better and better.

Indeed. My favorite comment to that article:

"Near the front of the park, two men in hoodies staged a meta-sit-in, fearful that their belongings would be lost or appropriated." The OWS Tea Party has already formed!

 

[Neally]

This just keeps getting better and better.

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." - Animal Farm

"You [screwed] up... you trusted us!" - Animal House

More pure gold from the article:

All occupiers are equal — but some occupiers are more equal than others.

When the "general assembly" cracked down on the unending drumming and it limited to 2 hours per day, Shane Engelerdt, a 19-year-old from Jersey City and self-described former “head drummer,” said, “They are becoming the government we’re trying to protest" he said. "They didn’t even give the drummers a say ... Drumming is the heartbeat of this movement. Look around: This is dead, you need a pulse to keep something alive.”

The drummers claim that the finance working group even levied a percussion tax of sorts, taking up to half of the $150-300 a day that the drum circle was receiving in tips. “Now they have over $500,000 from all sorts of places,” said Engelerdt. “We’re like, what’s going on here? They’re like the banks we’re protesting."

Oops, the idea of sharing the wealth doesn't sit so well when half your income gets taken...

 

[bikerdruid]

I thought my point was pretty clear. Here it is again. The so called examples of "fringe" elements in the protesters are being found not to be so fringe. One example is the fact that 1/3 of the protestors support violence to support their goals. 1/3 of a population is not fringe.

every revolutionary understands that sometimes violence is necessary.
peaceful means are always desirable and better...but,

"every comrade must grasp the fact that political power comes from the barrel of a gun."
chairman mao

 

[WildCat]

every revolutionary understands that sometimes violence is necessary.
peaceful means are always desirable and better...but,

"every comrade must grasp the fact that political power comes from the barrel of a gun."
chairman mao

It sure does for you communists.

In civilized places it derives from the will of the people.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

And the threadwreck continues apace. Have fun.

 

[Virus]

every revolutionary understands that sometimes violence is necessary.
peaceful means are always desirable and better...but,

"every comrade must grasp the fact that political power comes from the barrel of a gun."
chairman mao

And Chairman Mao should know since he killed 60 million people.

 

[JihadJane]

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about a question I asked you: What are the benefits of Wall Street to the world?

None of my posts in this thread have had anything to do with Wall Street.

This thread is about the occupation of Wall Street.

My argument is that whatever needs to be corrected,

What needs to be corrected?

whatever needs reform?

What needs reform?

the druggie drummers in Zuccotti Park aren't going to do it. They now want donations of puppets!

"Argument" by stereotype and ridicule (character assassination). Generalization fallacy.

You are not much of a critical thinker if you seriously think that people who defecate in people's doorways are going to bring about economic reform.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local...0/21/2011-10-21_neighbors_not_protesters.html

Tu quoque fallacy (again), character assassination, irrelevant, curtain-twitching gossip, generalization fallacy.

Who else do you think is going to bring about "economic reform" and what do they do with their feces?

 

[Virus]

I'm talking about a question I asked you: What are the benefits of Wall Street to the world?

It allows people to invest in the companies that provide the goods and services that we consume.

Don't like it? There's always Cuba or North Korea. You're safe from Wall Street there.

 

[Alt+F4]

Who else do you think is going to bring about "economic reform" and what do they do with their feces?

I think that those who will bring economic reform will do more than just stand around with signs and say they are mad. They will have goals and a agenda. Can you think of even one successful reform movement that didn't have at least one concrete goal? They will understand the key to economic control is having a political voice which involves voter registration and lobbying. Hey how about starting a viable third party rather than sleeping in a park and spending the money you already have on puppets, more drums and storage bins.

And as for their feces, they will do what any normal person does in an industrialized society, use the toilet!

 

[Alt+F4]

"Argument" by stereotype and ridicule (character assassination). Generalization fallacy.

How is it a stereotype when they actually want a donation of puppets?

Tu quoque fallacy (again), character assassination, irrelevant, curtain-twitching gossip, generalization fallacy.

Please provide evidence that the people who showed up at the Community Board 1 meeting last Thursday and said that the protestors were defecatating in their doorways were just gossiping.

 

[Alt+F4]

What are the benefits of Wall Street to the world?

Oh Wall Street isn't that bad. Even the protestors of OWS seem to have forgotten about it. At their last general assembly there was no mention of Wall Street at all. Much disagreement about money though and most of the meeting was taken up by a discussion (again) about drumming. This faux-movement is at the begining of it's end.

This general assembly needs to end. This is turning into a free for all that doesn’t respect the process that previous GAs have consensed to.

http://www.nycga.net/category/minutes/

 

[Stout]

Don't like it? There's always Cuba or North Korea. You're safe from Wall Street there.

In the western world, there's also the option of opting out as well. I mean, didn't these activists realise there was a "problem" with the banking system after watching Zeitgeist ? These guys are as addicted to modern conveniences just as much as joe average. I was in line behind a couple of these protesters in 711 a couple of days ago and they were buying their junk food with cards.

So, occupy Vancouver has decided to deviate from the official occupy script and came to the consensus that only a 90% consensus is needed to pass a motion. it appears that the direct democracy ( read anarchist ) model of government is proving unwieldy.

Our local occupy organizer was on facebook whining about how he doesn't want to be on welfare, it's not his fault. I can only wonder if he's putting the same effort into his job search as he is into updating that facebook/youtube/flickr/livestream page.

The city of Vancouver claims to have spent half a million dollars on policing last week. They're citing the Stanley Cup riots as the need for this level of security however IMO this is a mistake. They should have mentioned the 2010 anti-Olympics protests instead when, one Saturday morning a group of activists did go all smashy smashy.

As far as I can tell, the main concern these activists have is the level of media coverage they're getting. Hey look! I'm on TV!